.

[DogOnPorch]

I think generally you're an insult like any Holocaust denier.

[monty16]

And what's more, I've just noticed that you have called me a Nazi. Are there no rules on this forum against that? And you don't even have the slightest idea of what side I'm taking and I've given you no clues!

[DogOnPorch]

Uh huh...

[Michael Hardner]

Progressives want to solve problems. Like puritans, progressives want to improve us. They want us all to arrive on time. They want to stop addictions, make people literate. For progressives and puritans, the end is more important than the means.

There is nothing in your post that explains what reasoning is behind this statement.

[monty16]

JBG, I'm assuming you wrote this:

First of all, the Holocaust was not "an event that had happened more than a generation earlier on a different continent and affected a mere fraction of those living here". If one looks at the impact on targeted groups, i.e. Jews and Gypsies, the numerical impact was far higher. The overwhelming majority of Jews on the European Continent (except, ironically, Spain, Portugal and Italy) were killed or driven to death through starvation, disease and overwork.

You seem to not be mentioning lethal gassing and it appears to be purposeful. That leads one to believe that you are denying the holocaust. I say this because to put the deaths down to other causes perhaps does not a holocaust make. Or, is it your opinion as a Jewish person that there were no lethal gas chambers built and employed in the extermination of Jewish prisoners? thusly, a holocaust under a total different understanding from what we have believed in the past? Please explain further.

Edited December 28, 2011 by monty1

[jbg]

JBG, I'm assuming you wrote this:

You seem to not be mentioning lethal gassing and it appears to be purposeful. That leads one to believe that you are denying the holocaust. I say this because to put the deaths down to other causes perhaps does not a holocaust make. Or, is it your opinion as a Jewish person that there were no lethal gas chambers built and employed in the extermination of Jewish prisoners? thusly, a holocaust under a total different understanding from what we have believed in the past? Please explain further.

I am totally lost by this gibberish post. Please tell me what you want me to explain.

What I said, elsewhere, was that while 6,000,000 Jews were killed the grain of truth that deniers have is that they weren't gassed. Most were killed deliberately by other means.

[DogOnPorch]

The Aktion Reinhard Camps used Carbon Monoxide. Auschwitz was the only place that used Zyklon-B. That did amount to several million. But you're correct that the majority of the victims died of starvation, Typhus, general abuse and overwork.

Edited December 28, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[Boges]

JBG, I'm assuming you wrote this:

You seem to not be mentioning lethal gassing and it appears to be purposeful. That leads one to believe that you are denying the holocaust. I say this because to put the deaths down to other causes perhaps does not a holocaust make. Or, is it your opinion as a Jewish person that there were no lethal gas chambers built and employed in the extermination of Jewish prisoners? thusly, a holocaust under a total different understanding from what we have believed in the past? Please explain further.

What definition of the holocaust are you working on? So because Jews may have died because they were forced into slave labour and denied rights it somehow makes it less obscene?

The Holocaust is loosely defined by the treatment of Jews throughout the entire 3rd reich.

- For example the Neuemberg Laws that denied Jews of basic human rights.

- Or the Warsaw Ghetto

- Or the Holocaust by bullets where thousands of innocent people were shot.

Those are all elements of the contemporary opinion of what the holocaust was. The gassing is only the most obviously offensive element of how we understand what happened.

I see your angle though, if you call into question any evidence that is put forward without providing your own.

For example I could present this clip:

It would appear this clip is Himmler talking frankly about the extermination of the Jews. Is it proof that Holocaust happened? Well no but if Himmler was put in front of a court of law I'd be safe to say it's be pretty damning evidence against him. But then how do we know it's even Himmler. I've never heard Himmler speak. It could be an elaborate hoax, for all we know.

Of course these are the same tactics 9/11 truthers use.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Boges

[dre]

Slavery is abhorrent, under current ethics. It was rife from Biblical times to the early 1800's, and still is in Araby.

The underlying reason for the enslavement was cheap labor, obviously.

No the underlying reason and justification was that blacks were less than human. Blatant racism, and not all that different than the mindset that allowed the holocaust to happen.

This piece of our core psychology is key to understanding why identifiable groups of people are able to so easily able to target other identifiable groups. Im no expert, but my guess when you boil it down to its more basic component, the human "quality" that allowed for slavery and the holocaust is the same one that results in fat kids or homosexuals getting picked on in school.

If you look at the holocaust it wasnt just jews that were targeted. There was a systematic move towards racial and cultural purification. They went after members of just about every identifiable minority.

Heres a first hand account from a German fellow named Friedrich-Paul von Groszheim.

1933-39: In January 1937 the SS arrested 230 men in Luebeck under the Nazi-revised criminal code's paragraph 175, which outlawed homosexuality, and I was imprisoned for 10 months. The Nazis had been using paragraph 175 as grounds for making mass arrests of homosexuals. In 1938 I was re-arrested, humiliated, and tortured. The Nazis finally released me, but only on the condition that I agree to be castrated. I submitted to the operation.

Who knows why this is such a big part of the human condition. Maybe its an evolutionary artifact because it happens in nature as well.

Edited December 29, 2011 by dre

[Boges]

No the underlying reason and justification was that blacks were less than human. Blatant racism, and not all that different than the mindset that allowed the holocaust to happen.

I think the main difference would be if there is evidence that blacks, that weren't able bodied or couldn't work, were killed because they were of no use to their masters.

In the Holocaust able-bodied men and women were saved while seemingly helpless people were killed.

[dre]

I think the main difference would be if there is evidence that blacks, that weren't able bodied or couldn't work, were killed because they were of no use to their masters.

In the Holocaust able-bodied men and women were saved while seemingly helpless people were killed.

I added more to my post above. It wasnt about able bodies. It was about cultural purification. Identifying groups that could easily be set apart from the "herd", and trying to eliminate them. Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, communists... Any distinguishable attribute was good enough.

[Jack Weber]

Slavery is abhorrent, under current ethics. It was rife from Biblical times to the early 1800's, and still is in Araby.

The underlying reason for the enslavement was cheap labor, obviously.

The underlying reason for enslavement was supposed racial/ethnic inferiority...This is what made Africans expendable and "cheap"...

Ironically,the same dehumanizing factors that enabled the culling of Jews in Europe per Mein Kampf...

Edited December 29, 2011 by Jack Weber

[Jack Weber]

And what? Can you separate fact from fiction. For example, are you a rational thinking person who is able to understand that the earth is billions of years old or do you think there is a possibility that it's more like a few thousand years old. If you are capable of the former then you won't have a lot of difficulty with understanding holocaust fact and separating it from fiction. What you do with your conclusions will then be up to you and that will also determine your character, or lack of. It's really not all that difficult to come to correct conclusions on the holocaust. My friend put some facts and fictions to me in a logical way and I was able to figure it out pretty easily. You can too if you want to. It was easy for me when I listened to him that he was not motivated in any way to tell me lies.

I hope that answers your question. And I hope that allows you to rise above this rabble here on this thread. If you have any further questions then just p.m. me. But be aware that I will probably have no further satisfaction for you than what I have already given you. This goes for any of you.

Thanks for the pointless Darwinian rant...I'm sensing a theme to your attempting to "own" this board...

You do realize that many Jews were sold out by anti-Semitic Poles,right???

[Jack Weber]

Yes...that's my conclusion as well. Maybe he'll fill us in about that lie known as WW2.

It was all a plot by the Illumninati and high ranking Jews in the uppermost echelons of Freemasonry...

The Pike and Massini letters are definative proof of this,are they not???

[cybercoma]

There is nothing in your post that explains what reasoning is behind this statement.

Modernism is defined by a singular notion of "progress". Like the article mentions, the road of progress ultimately leads to the kind of thinking that August mentions: the ends are more important than the means. Eugenics was popular thinking in the progressive era and they truly believed they could solve all social degeneration through selective breeding. The ultimate expression of that was the Holocaust. The sum of all progressive notions was the systemic slaughter of European Jewry (the Roma people, homosexuals, etc.). Canada had it's own brand of this until the 1970s when we sterilized the "feebleminded" until the 1972 when the Eugenics acts in BC and Alberta were legislated out of existence. Up until then, however, both BC and Alberta sterilized people that they deemed "feebleminded," in the name of progress of course. Progressivism died in the Nazi death camps. That was the author in the original article's point and I think what August was echoing.

[Jack Weber]

Right after you post your credit card numbers.

I want those digits too!!!!

[Jack Weber]

I think I can safely say that you have no credibility to offer on the question of the holocaust. I'll look up which side you represent and then mark down one against that side's credibility.

Self impotance to the exponent of 10...

There was an author of a book in 1925 that had this same personality flaw...

Perhaps you've heared of him?

[Jack Weber]

And what's more, I've just noticed that you have called me a Nazi. Are there no rules on this forum against that? And you don't even have the slightest idea of what side I'm taking and I've given you no clues!

He did'nt call you a NAZI,he called you a Holocaust denier...Or better yet...A Holocaust Minimalizer???

I prefer a Darwinian twit...But,hey...Friedrich Nietsche and Karl Marx are cheering you on from the grave!!!

So go for it,man!!!

You're gonna "own the board"...

Edited December 29, 2011 by Jack Weber

[Jack Weber]

Modernism is defined by a singular notion of "progress". Like the article mentions, the road of progress ultimately leads to the kind of thinking that August mentions: the ends are more important than the means. Eugenics was popular thinking in the progressive era and they truly believed they could solve all social degeneration through selective breeding. The ultimate expression of that was the Holocaust. The sum of all progressive notions was the systemic slaughter of European Jewry (the Roma people, homosexuals, etc.). Canada had it's own brand of this until the 1970s when we sterilized the "feebleminded" until the 1972 when the Eugenics acts in BC and Alberta were legislated out of existence. Up until then, however, both BC and Alberta sterilized people that they deemed "feebleminded," in the name of progress of course. Progressivism died in the Nazi death camps. That was the author in the original article's point and I think what August was echoing.

I'm thinking that alot of people who claim to be "progressive" really don't know what it means...

After reading the original posts,I think It's getting a little clearer (it might also be the bourbon )

I think alot of "Rabble-type" progressive use the term a a self-congratulatory term while being derisive to others.Mainly because if one is'nt "progressive" they are inherently regressive and backwards..

In this conotation,however,it seems "progressive" intimates a progression of a certain thought to a logical conclusion...If that's the case,it applies to many things in modernity.

As it relates to things like Eugenics,it was a popular theory/idea of the late 1800's and early 20th century espoused by the likes of Oliver Wendall Holmes,Thomas Edison,William Shockley (probably not the best example),even,Tommy Douglas (an ordained Presbyterian minister who eschewed the theories later on).Eugenics theories were not the sole domain of the NAZI party,however,they did carry them to their inevitable conclusion...

Hare...Hunter...Field...

[monty16]

I am totally lost by this gibberish post. Please tell me what you want me to explain.

What I said, elsewhere, was that while 6,000,000 Jews were killed the grain of truth that deniers have is that they weren't gassed. Most were killed deliberately by other means.

I think you understand that gibberiwh very well. Thanks for your answer. I was always under the impression that 6 million were gassed because that's how the original story went. I have never denied that happened but now we are to believe that there were no lethal gassing in gas chambers built specifically for the purpose. Fair enough.

Yet now we have an argument developing between you and Boges who maintains something different. Which one of you is the denier and which one is the believer.

This is where the baloney detector comes in handy.

[monty16]

Thanks for the pointless Darwinian rant...I'm sensing a theme to your attempting to "own" this board...

You do realize that many Jews were sold out by anti-Semitic Poles,right???

I've heard that idea expressed before.

[jbg]

I think you understand that gibberiwh very well. Thanks for your answer. I was always under the impression that 6 million were gassed because that's how the original story went. I have never denied that happened but now we are to believe that there were no lethal gassing in gas chambers built specifically for the purpose. Fair enough.

I'm guessing around 1-2 million were gassed. I don't see much of a difference between gassing, Einsatzgrupen (mobile killing squads), inevitably fatal experiments and fatal mass forced labor coupled with starvation and disease.

[Jack Weber]

I'm guessing around 1-2 million were gassed. I don't see much of a difference between gassing, Einsatzgrupen (mobile killing squads), inevitably fatal experiments and fatal mass forced labor coupled with starvation and disease.

There is'nt a difference,really..Just an elapsed time difference....

[Jack Weber]

I've heard that idea expressed before.

Since when is it simply an "idea"?

[DogOnPorch]

Since when is it simply an "idea"?

Well, since their are no Polish Jews left to confirm their abuse at the hands of the Nazis there is no proof that it even occured...errrrr....ummm.