.

[monty16]

I believe the nazi sympathizer pope was Pius 12. However I didn't google it, so could be wrong. It happened once

Thanks Manny. I didn't google it either because it's not important. They're all a bunch of hypocrites who would sell their pseudo-souls to the nearest aggressor of the day. And as far as scruples goes, just ask any choir boy!

[Jack Weber]

I believe the nazi sympathizer pope was Pius 12. However I didn't google it, so could be wrong. It happened once

I don't disagree with this,however,this is in concordance with Thomas De Torquemada,and his need for the Vatican to invoke the "Latin Mass",which states that Jews need to be prayed for,so they convert to Christ,lest they be sent to Hell" (I'm paraphrasing),after his unsuccessful "Inquisition" in Spain...

By the way,this has been reinvoked by the current Pope...A former Hitler Youth member...

[cybercoma]

I forgot to add to my last post, there's also two online archives about the history of Eugenics in North America:

This Canadian one seems to be in its infancy, as it doesn't have a ton of information up yet: http://eugenicsarchive.ca/

The American one has been around for quite some time and has tons of primary materials and other relevant information: http://www.eugenicsarchive.org/eugenics/

[Jack Weber]

I forgot to add to my last post, there's also two online archives about the history of Eugenics in North America:

This Canadian one seems to be in its infancy, as it doesn't have a ton of information up yet: http://eugenicsarchive.ca/

The American one has been around for quite some time and has tons of primary materials and other relevant information: http://www.eugenicsarchive.org/eugenics/

If you notice in any of those,there is always a "racial inferiority" nature in both...

Quite dispicable...

Edited December 29, 2011 by Jack Weber

[August1991]

There is nothing in your post that explains what reasoning is behind this statement.

MH, God knows why people do what they do.

The Aktion Reinhard Camps used Carbon Monoxide. Auschwitz was the only place that used Zyklon-B. That did amount to several million. But you're correct that the majority of the victims died of starvation, Typhus, general abuse and overwork.

DoP, the 6 million statistic is a rough number. Several million died in extermination camps shortly after they arrived. For example at Treblinka where there was no work camp and no selection, almost 1 million people were killed (largely Warsaw Jews).

It is true that many people died of starvation or disease since the Nazis herded Jews into ghettos before moving them by transport to extermination camps. I think relatively few died through "overwork" since the Nazis generally did not view Jews as slave labour.

-----

In the 1930s, Lvov was a Polish city with a Jewish minority. It was like Montreal, a city of two large communities who live side by side.

Nowadays, Lvov is Lviv. It has few Polish speakers and no Jews. Such is Europe.

I am always surprised when people say that Europeans are sophisticated or more refined than Americans. They say, "Americans are fat and crass. Americans eat fast food. Europeans are more civilized."

IMHO, we North Americans are the civilized people.

Edited December 29, 2011 by August1991

[Guest Manny]

And as far as scruples goes, just ask any choir boy!

Jack...?

[DogOnPorch]

You've seen Treblinka if I recall. Not much to look at, eh? It was a real sausage machine...terrible and efficient.

[Jack Weber]

Jack...?

"Classy" is as "Classy" does...

[Jack Weber]

MH, God knows why people do what they do.

DoP, the 6 million statistic is a rough number. Several million died in extermination camps shortly after they arrived. For example at Treblinka where there was no work camp and no selection, almost 1 million people were killed (largely Warsaw Jews).

It is true that many people died of starvation or disease since the Nazis herded Jews into ghettos before moving them by transport to extermination camps. I think relatively few died through "overwork" since the Nazis generally did not view Jews as slave labour.

-----

In the 1930s, Lvov was a Polish city with a Jewish minority. It was like Montreal, a city of two large communities who live side by side.

Nowadays, Lvov is Lviv. There are few Polish speakers and no Jews. Such is Europe.

----

I am always surprised when people say that Europeans are sophisticated or more refined than Americans. They say, "Americans are fat and crass. Americans eat fast food. Europeans are more civilized."

Nowadays Stettin is called Sczewicz...Whatever...

6 million is the NAZI numbers...Why do you think they made films of these things??

Would it be that they were proud of themselves???

Edited December 29, 2011 by Jack Weber

[Guest Manny]

"Classy" is as "Classy" does...

Can you sing that one instead please... in your falsetto voice

[Jack Weber]

Can you sing that one instead please... in your falsetto voice

In my best Frankie Valle....

"Claaassy is as Claaasssy does"

(Remember "Big girls don't cry"?)

Edited December 29, 2011 by Jack Weber

[DogOnPorch]

I think relatively few died through "overwork" since the Nazis generally did not view Jews as slave labour.

Nordhausen Mittelwerk is an example of an SS slave labour factory. They handled dangerous chemicals making rocket fuel, etc. Accidents were common.

Edited December 29, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[Michael Hardner]

MH, God knows why people do what they do.

Your statement: "For progressives and puritans, the end is more important than the means."

I would contend that business types who want to make a great economy at the cost of jobs and wages see the end as more important than the means. What are YOU speaking of ? Eugenics ? Is that really a basis for generalizing about leftists ?

Don't let me put words in your mouth, though, please... respond.

[Jack Weber]

Your statement: "For progressives and puritans, the end is more important than the means."

I would contend that business types who want to make a great economy at the cost of jobs and wages see the end as more important than the means. What are YOU speaking of ? Eugenics ? Is that really a basis for generalizing about leftists ?

Don't let me put words in your mouth, though, please... respond.

I was thinking along those lines,vis a vis "free market economics"...

It's the very same Darwinian type of thinking...

Edited December 29, 2011 by Jack Weber

[jbg]

John Paul II? Was that the Nazi sympathizing pope?

You have the wrong Pope, my friend. That is the current one, Benedict.

John Karol Voltylwa (sp)was quite the enemy of all totalitarians and the friend of the Jews.

[cybercoma]

If you notice in any of those,there is always a "racial inferiority" nature in both...

Quite dispicable...

Race was a visual indicator of one's "pedigree," so it stands to reason.

[cybercoma]

Your statement: "For progressives and puritans, the end is more important than the means."

I would contend that business types who want to make a great economy at the cost of jobs and wages see the end as more important than the means. What are YOU speaking of ? Eugenics ? Is that really a basis for generalizing about leftists ?

Don't let me put words in your mouth, though, please... respond.

In the capitalist system, the means (making profit) has become an end in itself, but that's something different entirely.

[cybercoma]

You have the wrong Pope, my friend. That is the current one, Benedict.

John Karol Voltylwa (sp)was quite the enemy of all totalitarians and the friend of the Jews.

He also worked for a chemical factory in Nazi-occupied Poland, but it's unlikely he colluded with them in any way. He was merely a labourer. I think that part of his past is why people make the claim he "sold chemicals to the Nazis," even though it's not true.

[Michael Hardner]

Back to the OP, to me this is about the larger issue of academia becoming irrelevant in our current age.

Empirical arguments based on facts have become distasteful to people.

"How dare you say my feelings about this topic aren't valid by pointing out factual errors in my statements ?"

"I believe that evolution isn't real."

The democratic ideal states that people should choose their leaders, based on public discussion. This has somehow been extended to a quasi-socialist idea that every opinion is valid. And people mistake mass communication with public discussion.

Our central nervous system is short circuiting, if we don't value experts and if we expect that our feelings trump their years of research.

[Guest Manny]

Our central nervous system is short circuiting, if we don't value experts and if we expect that our feelings trump their years of research.

The problem goes deeper than that. It is also a consequence of special/ powerful groups buying out the testimony of experts, so that expert advice reflects their own agenda. The irony of this age of information we are in is that there is so much information, much of it contradictory that we individuals can't know the truth.

In other words, politicization, partisanship and other dirty p-words.

[Michael Hardner]

And individuals buying political power that goes against the wishes of the people, too.

[Michael Hardner]

Jeffrey Sachs was on CBC radio's "The Current" yesterday, and indicated that 60% of Americans were against extending the tax cut to the wealthiest earners but the Obama administration did the deal nonetheless.

[cybercoma]

Back to the OP, to me this is about the larger issue of academia becoming irrelevant in our current age.

Empirical arguments based on facts have become distasteful to people.

"How dare you say my feelings about this topic aren't valid by pointing out factual errors in my statements ?"

"I believe that evolution isn't real."

The democratic ideal states that people should choose their leaders, based on public discussion. This has somehow been extended to a quasi-socialist idea that every opinion is valid. And people mistake mass communication with public discussion.

Our central nervous system is short circuiting, if we don't value experts and if we expect that our feelings trump their years of research.

I think a lot of this idea has been driven more recently by social media. Every news article has a comments section, while Facebook and Twitter allow everyone to immortalize every last thought, regardless of how banal or factually incorrect.

[Michael Hardner]

I think a lot of this idea has been driven more recently by social media. Every news article has a comments section, while Facebook and Twitter allow everyone to immortalize every last thought, regardless of how banal or factually incorrect.

Ah yes, but writing something - posting it - is conducive to memory, more so than speech.

I'm hoping that empirical arguments will be making a comeback soon.

[monty16]

Jeffrey Sachs was on CBC radio's "The Current" yesterday, and indicated that 60% of Americans were against extending the tax cut to the wealthiest earners but the Obama administration did the deal nonetheless.

Well how intellectually dishonest can a person get Michael? Everybody should know by now that he's being forced into appeasing the rabid right congress in order to get through at least some progressive changes. Your best hope is that the people don't come together and give Obama some backing that he can work with. Chances are slim because the 'people' have already pretty well sold the farm out from under him.