.

[Shady]

This thread is hilarious! It reminds me of the people that argue the 6 million figure related to Holocaust deaths. That it couldn't have been that much, more like 1 or 2 million.

[DogOnPorch]

And what? Can you separate fact from fiction. For example, are you a rational thinking person who is able to understand that the earth is billions of years old or do you think there is a possibility that it's more like a few thousand years old. If you are capable of the former then you won't have a lot of difficulty with understanding holocaust fact and separating it from fiction. What you do with your conclusions will then be up to you and that will also determine your character, or lack of. It's really not all that difficult to come to correct conclusions on the holocaust. My friend put some facts and fictions to me in a logical way and I was able to figure it out pretty easily. You can too if you want to. It was easy for me when I listened to him that he was not motivated in any way to tell me lies.

I hope that answers your question. And I hope that allows you to rise above this rabble here on this thread. If you have any further questions then just p.m. me. But be aware that I will probably have no further satisfaction for you than what I have already given you. This goes for any of you.

Clear as mud. So...is the Holocaust a lie or what? Give me the truth...

[jbg]

This thread is hilarious! It reminds me of the people that argue the 6 million figure related to Holocaust deaths. That it couldn't have been that much, more like 1 or 2 million.

The grain of half-truth is that 6 million didn't die in the gas chambers. Most died from forced labor, disease and starvation. It's a fine, and meaningless, distinction.

[DogOnPorch]

The grain of half-truth is that 6 million didn't die in the gas chambers. Most died from forced labor, disease and starvation. It's a fine, and meaningless, distinction.

Yup...only 30 odd thousand were shot in a day at Babi Yar...I doubt that it was somehow better than Treblinka.

[Boges]

And what? Can you separate fact from fiction. For example, are you a rational thinking person who is able to understand that the earth is billions of years old or do you think there is a possibility that it's more like a few thousand years old. If you are capable of the former then you won't have a lot of difficulty with understanding holocaust fact and separating it from fiction. What you do with your conclusions will then be up to you and that will also determine your character, or lack of. It's really not all that difficult to come to correct conclusions on the holocaust. My friend put some facts and fictions to me in a logical way and I was able to figure it out pretty easily. You can too if you want to. It was easy for me when I listened to him that he was not motivated in any way to tell me lies.

I hope that answers your question. And I hope that allows you to rise above this rabble here on this thread. If you have any further questions then just p.m. me. But be aware that I will probably have no further satisfaction for you than what I have already given you. This goes for any of you.

You must be a politician. You wrote a long post saying pretty much nothing. Cept for yet another blast against Christians.

Do you believe Jews and other minorities were sent to camps for the sole purpose to be excecuted?

BTW I wouldn't believe stories of someone who lived near a concentration camp since many denied they knew anything about what happened there.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Boges

[monty16]

You must be a politician. You wrote a long post saying pretty much nothing. Cept for yet another blast against Christians.

Do you believe Jews and other minorities were sent to camps for the sole purpose to be excecuted?

BTW I wouldn't believe stories of someone who lived near a concentration camp since many denied they knew anything about what happened there.

The Polish people denied nothing and had no reason to. What people are you referring to who denied something. You must be talking about some German people near some other camp perhaps in Germany?

All you people need is a little encouraging and you will figure out what the truth is all by yourselves. Supposing some of you are rational thinkers. You'll feed on each other until you get at the truth but as you are doing so you will hear lots of interference from both sides. I'll get you a 'baloney meter' to use when I get around to it.

And here it is, your own baloney detection kit.

Study it and refer back to it once in a while if you want to figure it all out. Edited December 28, 2011 by monty1

[Boges]

The Polish people denied nothing and had no reason to. What people are you referring to who denied something. You must be talking about some German people near some other camp perhaps in Germany?

All you people need is a little encouraging and you will figure out what the truth is all by yourselves. Supposing some of you are rational thinkers. You'll feed on each other until you get at the truth but as you are doing so you will hear lots of interference from both sides. I'll get you a 'baloney meter' to use when I get around to it.

Ok.

I'll just assume you're a holocaust denier if you can't even tell us what you believe the truth is and only provide anecdotal evidence from a mysterious friend.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Boges

[DogOnPorch]

Yes...that's my conclusion as well. Maybe he'll fill us in about that lie known as WW2.

[Boges]

I wonder what this monty's "baloney meter" says about this photo.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LW1eng7MMhM/TVQSHw5hvbI/AAAAAAAAAMA/0ddKDfQnczg/s1600/holocaust+dead+bodies.jpg

Edited December 28, 2011 by Boges

[DogOnPorch]

I wonder what this monty's "baloney meter" says about this photo.

http://www.un.org/en/holocaustremembrance/images/footprint%20BW%20shoes.jpg

A big sock-hop for the Jewish prisoners?

[Boges]

A big sock-hop for the Jewish prisoners?

Sorry I revised the photo to something a bit more visceral.

[DogOnPorch]

Sorry I revised the photo to something a bit more visceral.

I see. They're obviously waiting for the bus to take them to their luxury swimming pools or perhaps the opera as per Theresienstadt. Right, monty?

Edited December 28, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[Guest Peeves]

An interesting read. Most (?) contemporary Jews are not defined by the Holocaust in my experience. However I do think the state of Israel may be, and why not?

Similar to the author's deferring to the survivor, I on occasion when unhappy with something the Israeli government has done, defer to the Israeli, for after all, I don't face their political reality. I then grant Israel the right to their own decisions as it faces the alternative, not you and I.

Like the 'survivor' they, Israelis' live in real time what we hear or are preached to as to what is or was history from a far different perspective.

One may dispute elements of the victim's historical detail, but the dead have no history to tell but their passing, and for some, that is but conjecture gone in smoke.

[monty16]

You all can form whatever conclusion you want about me. Call me a denier or call me a believer, it doesn't matter.

If I told you what I believe about the holocaust there's really no reason to believe me. Michael Shermer in the video makes that point very early on. You need to be sceptics, not only be sceptical of the believers but also be sceptical of the deniers. And so I've given you the baloney detection kit to use in order to come to your own conclusions on the questions.

So do you really want to know the truth or are you all just spending time haranguing each other for cheap thrills?

When, or if you watch and listen to the video you should try to think of how you can apply each rule to the question you are asking. In this case the holocaust but it works equally well for lots of questions. But don't think the answers come easy because they don't. It's going to take a lot of research.

And here's another hint: When somebody makes a claim that you aren't sure is verifiable then ask for more verification of that claim. Then judge what you get in response, if anything, and then apply the applicable rule. If all you get is insults or anger then that tells you something right away. For instance, I've made a mental note of Boges and DogonPorch labelling me a denier and I'll be watching those two more closely in the future. I'm already having doubts on both of them arriving at their own conclusions based on anything substantial. So what side of the debate are they on? Mark down one point against each of their respective sides.

And I'm already on my way to getting to the truth!

[DogOnPorch]

However I do think the state of Israel may be, and why not?

Seeing that the Palestinian leader of the time was a high ranking member of the SS, Eichmann and Himmler's personal friend as well as taking a very active role in the Final Solution...this is very understandable.

[monty16]

You all can form whatever conclusion you want about me. Call me a denier or call me a believer, it doesn't matter.

If I told you what I believe about the holocaust there's really no reason to believe me. Michael Shermer in the video makes that point very early on. You need to be sceptics, not only be sceptical of the believers but also be sceptical of the deniers. And so I've given you the baloney detection kit to use in order to come to your own conclusions on the questions.

So do you really want to know the truth or are you all just spending time haranguing each other for cheap thrills?

When, or if you watch and listen to the video you should try to think of how you can apply each rule to the question you are asking. In this case the holocaust but it works equally well for lots of questions. But don't think the answers come easy because they don't. It's going to take a lot of research.

And here's another hint: When somebody makes a claim that you aren't sure is verifiable then ask for more verification of that claim. Then judge what you get in response, if anything, and then apply the applicable rule. If all you get is insults or anger then that tells you something right away. For instance, I've made a mental note of Boges and DogonPorch labelling me a denier and I'll be watching those two more closely in the future. I'm already having doubts on both of them arriving at their own conclusions based on anything substantial. So what side of the debate are they on? Mark down one point against each of their respective sides.

And I'm already on my way to getting to the truth!

Here's another hint: One poster commented that the German people at some camp denied seeing evidence. If he/she comes back with the evidence then he will gain credibility. If he doesn't he/she will lose credibility. I'll just apply the applicable rule. Then I'll mark one down for or against his/her side.

[DogOnPorch]

You know nothing about either of us but suffice to say that my family experienced the Holocaust from all sides...as victims, perpetrators and avengers. So your denial of it makes me chuckle but also make me ready for the next lot of Nazis who might take issue with my existence......buuuuuudddy.

[monty16]

DogonPorch, what is your photo of the pile of footwear? Where was the picture taken? When was it taken? Who took the picture? Whose footwear is it? Did somebody witness the picture being taken? Where did you get the picture? Is your source reliable?

[DogOnPorch]

DogonPorch, what is your photo of the pile of footwear? Where was the picture taken? When was it taken? Who took the picture? Whose footwear is it? Did somebody witness the picture being taken? Where did you get the picture? Is your source reliable?

Shows how daft you actually are!

[monty16]

Shows how daft you actually are!

That's not a very good answer DogonPorch, and in fact it's a personal insult. Is that allowed in this forum?

That's another mark against your side DogonPorch. You're not doing your side any favours so far. We need to watch for more from you and more from your side. What is your side anyway?

[DogOnPorch]

That's not a very good answer DogonPorch, and in fact it's a personal insult. Is that allowed in this forum?

That's another mark against your side DogonPorch. You're not doing your side any favours so far. We need to watch for more from you and more from your side. What is your side anyway?

Look...brainiac...I didn't post the photo.

[monty16]

You know nothing about either of us but suffice to say that my family experienced the Holocaust from all sides...as victims, perpetrators and avengers. So your denial of it makes me chuckle but also make me ready for the next lot of Nazis who might take issue with my existence......buuuuuudddy.

Do you have living members of your family who experienced the holocaust? Who are they as to being related to you? What country did they live in during the time in question? What nationality are they? How old are they? Are they on record for the claims they have made? What nationality are you? How old are you? Who told you your information? Can we research any of those people so we can judge their credibility? Can you furnish any proof on what your family members have told you? Are your family members deniers?

Edited December 28, 2011 by monty1

[DogOnPorch]

Do you have living members of your family who experienced the holocaust? Who are they as to being related to you? What country did they live in during the time in question? What nationality are they? How old are they? Are they on record for the claims they have made? What nationality are you? How old are you? Who told you your information? Can we research any of those people so we can judge their credibility?

Right after you post your credit card numbers.

[monty16]

Look...brainiac...I didn't post the photo.

Then who posted the photo? The same questions apply. And why would you insult me against the rules of the forum if you know nothing about the photo? Or do you know something about the photo?

Edited December 28, 2011 by monty1

[monty16]

I think I can safely say that you have no credibility to offer on the question of the holocaust. I'll look up which side you represent and then mark down one against that side's credibility.