Protest against the LCBO -- Liquor Control Board of Ontario

[Boges]

I suppose they wont, but the increased price then is something accurate about this thread? The last few posts said the Beer Store was lying about the cost (I dont think $10 is even close, maybe a buck or two) from the report they commissioned.

Personally, I see no problems with the BStore, availablity is great , store hrs are fine, locations plentiful , but I dont like who owns it .

It only goes up if the government says it has to. You'd have to change the way to system works.

Only with a government-sanctioned monopoly would greater competition actually result in HIGHER prices. It's offensive.

Beer Stores are horrible places to shop. And the fact that you can only go there to redeem your empties is also ridiculous.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Boges

[guyser]

I dunno how accurate. $10 seems steep, but who knows? Actually, who cares? Prices aren't the point. Competition and accessibility are.

Almost always the claim is made that opening up the LCBO/B Store will ensure lower prices and better selection, yet we can see that is not happening in Alta.

Will there ever be a time the govt doesnt set the price to some degree?

Shitty hours, shitty selection for anything but mass market swill and a shitty retail experience overall. Only time I shop there is when it's my turn to supply the cold ones after hockey.

See I dont get this part.

Hours are great, I can buy up to 11PM

I can get virtually any beer I desire and probably as many diff ones as anynone else on this continent.

I go in, buy a case, get a smile and hand over my CC and im done. I wish some other shopping was this easy.

I admit I am no beer connoisseur so what I need I can readily get anywhere (hello Keith's)

[Mighty AC]

The selection at the Beer Store is better than it will be at most convenience and grocery stores when the monopoly is finally toppled. Still, it is time for it to go.

[Boges]

The selection at the Beer Store is better than it will be at most convenience and grocery stores when the monopoly is finally toppled. Still, it is time for it to go.

The LCBO has a nice selection of craft beer, but they're only allowed to sell singles and 6-packs. You don't generally go to a corner store for selection anyway.

[Mighty AC]

I agree...but I think it's time for the LCBO to go as well. With both entities out of the way, some great specialty liquor and beer stores will appear and we will have convenient access to the big brands at grocery and convenience stores. However, our access to a diverse selection of craft products will likely be more limited than it is now. Especially in smaller markets.

[Boges]

I agree...but I think it's time for the LCBO to go as well. With both entities out of the way, some great specialty liquor and beer stores will appear and we will have convenient access to the big brands at grocery and convenience stores. However, our access to a diverse selection of craft products will likely be more limited than it is now. Especially in smaller markets.

I hate the LCBO too, but at least it's a welcoming place to shop.

[Boges]

Today Premier Wynne is having an online Town Hall on Reddit. She was asked about this and her response is. . .

KathleenWynne[S] 20 points

1 hour

ago

Last night I was at the Flying Monkeys Craft Brewery in Barrie. It's a great business and I want these companies to thrive. At the same time, we need to make sure we make socially responsible decisions about the distribution of alcohol. We have a controlled distribution system in place in Ontario and it's worked well. I understand that people want this to be more convenient, but my job is to weigh that against social issues like public health and the safety of minors. But we are in conversatoin with the Ontario Craft Brewers Association and we're looking at ways to modernize beer distribution.

People NEVER believe this is about social responsibility. It's a cover for high prices and revenue. If they were about social responsibility they would ban advertising like they do with tobacco. Interestingly enough tobacco is available in corner stores.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Boges

[Black Dog]

Almost always the claim is made that opening up the LCBO/B Store will ensure lower prices and better selection, yet we can see that is not happening in Alta.

Will there ever be a time the govt doesnt set the price to some degree?

Alberta's not truly privatized. There the province acts as a middleman between suppliers and retailers. The sin tax also distorts pricing to some extent. As for selection, Alberta's selection is fine, certainly on par with the LCBO/Beer Store system if not better.

See I dont get this part.

Hours are great, I can buy up to 11PM

In some places. And provided you're close to the beer store.

I can get virtually any beer I desire and probably as many diff ones as anynone else on this continent.

LCBO has better beer selection despite having a smaller slice of the pie. Smaller craft beers don't get play in the Beer Store because the BS charges them extra for shelf space and marketing.

I go in, buy a case, get a smile and hand over my CC and im done. I wish some other shopping was this easy.

Line up behind a bunch of bums swapping out their bottles, peer up at the huge and poorly laid out board to find your suds of choice, wait for the dingleberry in the back to get off the phone to shove your choices down the belt, GTFO. Good times.

I admit I am no beer connoisseur so what I need I can readily get anywhere (hello Keith's)

Yeah if you're drinking Keith's you have bigger problems than foreign monopolies controlling the supply...

[guyser]

Alberta's not truly privatized. There the province acts as a middleman between suppliers and retailers. The sin tax also distorts pricing to some extent. As for selection, Alberta's selection is fine, certainly on par with the LCBO/Beer Store system if not better.

And under no circumstances would the Prov give up the middle man status so we have a shittier system and the same

prices.

I understand the selection is less in Alta than here.

LCBO has better beer selection despite having a smaller slice of the pie. Smaller craft beers don't get play in the Beer Store because the BS charges them extra for shelf space and marketing.

The same as any grocery store does? Nothing will change on that dynamic

Line up behind a bunch of bums swapping out their bottles, peer up at the huge and poorly laid out board to find your suds of choice, wait for the dingleberry in the back to get off the phone to shove your choices down the belt, GTFO. Good times.

For me I walk in, grab the case I want from the cooler and cash out, rarely behind a bum and hone4stly they are never on the phone. YMMV.

Yeah if you're drinking Keith's you have bigger problems than foreign monopolies controlling the supply...

Now dont be a snob .

Admittedly I am not a beer guy, ice cold whatever is fine with me....'cept MGD, Pabst, Laker and Blue.

[Black Dog]

Guyser2, on 11 Feb 2014 - 2:15 PM, said:

And under no circumstances would the Prov give up the middle man status so we have a shittier system and the same

prices.

Point was, it's not an apples to apples situation. Quebec's system is the model here, not Alberta's.

I understand the selection is less in Alta than here.

By what measure?

The same as any grocery store does? Nothing will change on that dynamic

Sure it would: no more free rides for the big brands. Level playing field for all.

For me I walk in, grab the case I want from the cooler and cash out, rarely behind a bum and hone4stly they are never on the phone. YMMV.

Again it depends. Near where I live now, I've got a pretty nice Beer Store. But in my old 'hood, the closest B.S. was as ghetto as it gets.

Now dont be a snob .

Too late LOL.

Admittedly I am not a beer guy, ice cold whatever is fine with me....'cept MGD, Pabst, Laker and Blue.

Man if you're drinking Keith's you have no business turning your nose up at Blue, which is a better bad beer IMO.

[guyser]

Point was, it's not an apples to apples situation. Quebec's system is the model here, not Alberta's.

Quebec is the same sans the beer. That is bought wholesale direct from each brewery.

But then who would give shelf space to a crafter that moves two 12 pks a week? Not many, and that leaves the premium seller who will sell at premium prices.

By what measure?

Sheer size. Nothing can compare to an LCBO store for size and availability.

Sure it would: no more free rides for the big brands. Level playing field for all.

I would bet that a level playing field would be greatly tilted in minutes when the big boys bark.

You own a store, you have to pay the bills. Selling Blue et al pays those bills and hoepfully there is a lil room left for some fine craft product.

A grocery store charges for space, the little guy pays even thought they can barely afford it. I dont see that as level

Too late LOL.

Im getting that !

Man if you're drinking Keith's you have no business turning your nose up at Blue, which is a better bad beer IMO.

I make no boasts and admit I drink what I like all the while knowing it is not a premier beer or brand.

That said, my two cases a year consumption is serving me well

[Black Dog]

Quebec is the same sans the beer. That is bought wholesale direct from each brewery.

Which backs up my point that the Alberta model isn't a good one to look at.

But then who would give shelf space to a crafter that moves two 12 pks a week? Not many, and that leaves the premium seller who will sell at premium prices.

Quebec beers like Dieu de Ciel, Unibroue, McAuslan are all pretty ubiquitous in most QC markets and small deps I've been to. Craft beers are the fastest growing market segment. So the answer to your question of "who would give craft beers shelf space" is "anyone who wants to make money."

Sheer size. Nothing can compare to an LCBO store for size and availability.

Loblaw's runs private liquor stores in Alberta that are easily on par with any LCBO in terms of size. There's at least one beer store in Edmonton that, selection wise, destroys any LCBO/beer store in this province.

I would bet that a level playing field would be greatly tilted in minutes when the big boys bark.

You own a store, you have to pay the bills. Selling Blue et al pays those bills and hoepfully there is a lil room left for some fine craft product.

A grocery store charges for space, the little guy pays even thought they can barely afford it. I dont see that as level

I don't think you get what level playing field means in this sense. I'm talking about removing the artificial barriers to competition inherent in the Beer Store cartel system, like the fact that micros have to pay while the big boys don't, or self-serving marketing tactics. If, as you say, the big brewers will dominate the marketplace anyway by virtue of their size, then they obviously don't need the extra help the system gives them, do they?

Im getting that !

I make no boasts and admit I drink what I like all the while knowing it is not a premier beer or brand.

That said, my two cases a year consumption is serving me well

Hey if that works for you, great. But seriously, if you don't drink beer you don't have much skin in this game.

[guyser]

I don't think you get what level playing field means in this sense. I'm talking about removing the artificial barriers to competition inherent in the Beer Store cartel system, like the fact that micros have to pay while the big boys don't, or self-serving marketing tactics. If, as you say, the big brewers will dominate the marketplace anyway by virtue of their size, then they obviously don't need the extra help the system gives them, do they?

I know what a level playing field is. What I didnt know was the price charged and for that reason, now that I know, I find it hard to swallow that this charge is allowed.

That said. it is the same as I was saying, any grocery store charges the little guy for shelf space, not Coke or Pepsi per se , but the other small ones they do.

I am now switching teams...sort of. ...the beer store should be either bought out or closed up , let the LCBO run it.

[The_Squid]

I was in Onterio recently... craft brewing is better than it was a couple years ago, but still lags far behind Quebec and BC for diversity of product... it's not the beer wasteland it used to be... but progress is slow.

I reccommend to everyone the following brewery... www.beaus.ca great and inovative stuff!

Edited February 11, 2014 by The_Squid

[Black Dog]

I was in Onterio recently... craft brewing is better than it was a couple years ago, but still lags far behind Quebec and BC for diversity of product... it's not the beer wasteland it used to be... but progress is slow.

I reccommend to everyone the following brewery... www.beaus.ca great and inovative stuff!

That's nuts to me. Ontario is at least on par with B.C. in terms of the number of craft beer operations and the range of products on offer. Nor would I say progress has been slow; the last three years have seen exponential growth in the industry.

Maybe your impressions were coloured by the selection at the LCBO/Beer Store?

[The_Squid]

That's nuts to me. Ontario is at least on par with B.C. in terms of the number of craft beer operations and the range of products on offer. Nor would I say progress has been slow; the last three years have seen exponential growth in the industry.

Maybe your impressions were coloured by the selection at the LCBO/Beer Store?

No. Ontario is nowhere near on par with BC... yes, access is part of the problem as well.

There are 6 breweries in Victoria alone that bottle for distribution and a couple more that only do draft...

There are 3 more up Island.

There are at least a dozen craft breweries in Vancouver that bottle.... several others that do draft.... a whole bunch more that are brew pubs. Craft beer is easy to get in BC... Ontario is still a bit of a wasteland....

[Black Dog]

No. Ontario is nowhere near on par with BC... yes, access is part of the problem as well.

There are 6 breweries in Victoria alone that bottle for distribution and a couple more that only do draft...

There are 3 more up Island.

There are at least a dozen craft breweries in Vancouver that bottle.... several others that do draft.... a whole bunch more that are brew pubs. Craft beer is easy to get in BC... Ontario is still a bit of a wasteland....

Sounds exactly the same as here. The BC craft brewers association has 29 members. Ontario's equivalent has 30, most of which bottle for distribution. Ontario craft beers also eat a larger share of the market here (30 per cent) versus B.C. (15 per cent). I'm really not sure what you're basing your assessment on, becasue if you think Ontario is a craft beer "wasteland" I have to question if you've actually been to Ontario.

[The_Squid]

Sounds exactly the same as here. The BC craft brewers association has 29 members. Ontario's equivalent has 30, most of which bottle for distribution. Ontario craft beers also eat a larger share of the market here (30 per cent) versus B.C. (15 per cent). I'm really not sure what you're basing your assessment on, becasue if you think Ontario is a craft beer "wasteland" I have to question if you've actually been to Ontario.

I was there a few weeks ago. And I know a bit about beer...

Certainly in breweries per capita, Ontario lags behind according to your numbers. That's one measure. Although, the association numbers are not equivelant to the number of breweries. BTW, the OCB has 37 members.

Plus, you are severely exagerating the market share. SEVERELY. Please cite your refence, becasue it is nowhere near that!

According to the link below, it is <5% market share in Ontario.

http://www.mri.gov.on.ca/obr/?p=1440

According to this article, BC's craft beer market share is about 15%. But that is from a brewer. This article seems to confirm it though. I've seen BC government numbers say as high as 20%...

So that's another measure where BC is way out ahead.

Although, by sheer numbers, Ontario may be ahead due to the higher population. You may have as many craft beer drinkers, but not as many per capita.

Ontario’s craft brewer’s share has more than doubled since 2002, rising from slightly less than two per cent to approximately five per cent of beer volume sold in Ontario. - See more at: http://www.mri.gov.on.ca/obr/?p=1440#sthash.Yr47RyiM.dpuf

Edited February 12, 2014 by The_Squid

[Black Dog]

Certainly in breweries per capita, Ontario lags behind according to your numbers. That's one measure.

What numbers?

Although, the association numbers are not equivelant to the number of breweries. BTW, the OCB has 37 members.

I'm aware.

Plus, you are severely exagerating the market share. SEVERELY. Please cite your refence, becasue it is nowhere near that!

According to the link below, it is <5% market share in Ontario.

http://www.mri.gov.on.ca/obr/?p=1440

Link is three years old, pre dating the explosion I'm talking about. Craft beer sales went up almost 50% in the year following that article. While my initial figure was an error (that was all beer), I'd be genuinely surprised if craft beer isn't pushing 10 per cent of the market share in ON.

I'm still baffled that anyone could visit Ontario in 2013 and conclude it's a craft beer "wasteland."

[The_Squid]

What numbers?

Breweries per capita, as I stated...

Link is three years old, pre dating the explosion I'm talking about. Craft beer sales went up almost 50% in the year following that article. While my initial figure was an error (that was all beer), I'd be genuinely surprised if craft beer isn't pushing 10 per cent of the market share in ON.

I'm still baffled that anyone could visit Ontario in 2013 and conclude it's a craft beer "wasteland."

It's not pushing 10%... not even close.

in 2012, craft brewers sold 19% more than they had in 2009. This represents a 3.2% share of the Ontario market. Looking ahead two years to 2015, Bob predicted that craft beer’s share of the Ontario market will increase to 4.4%

http://studentofbeer.wordpress.com/2013/10/22/ontario-craft-brewers-conference/

It's less of a wasteland than it was... but it is no BC... even finding craft beer in stores in Ontario is difficult. It's a very strange and unwelcome place for microbrews! Sad, but true. But improving...

My local liquor store has a massive selection of craft beer from all over.

[Black Dog]

Breweries per capita, as I stated...

And I was asking what those numbers actually are.

It's not pushing 10%... not even close.

And you know this how? Again, the figures you cite are old and out of date.

It's less of a wasteland than it was... but it is no BC... even finding craft beer in stores in Ontario is difficult. It's a very strange and unwelcome place for microbrews! Sad, but true. But improving...

welcome to the thread.

[guyser]

, I'd be genuinely surprised if craft beer isn't pushing 10 per cent of the market share in ON.

Assuming this is current, the share is 5%

http://www.mri.gov.on.ca/obr/?p=1440

"Ontario’s craft brewer’s share has more than doubled since 2002, rising from slightly less than two per cent to approximately five per cent of beer volume sold in Ontario. Craft beer continues to be the fastest growing segment within the LCBO’s beer category, with current growth rates over 10 per cent per year.

“We’d like to see our share at 15 or 20 per cent,” says McMullen. "

[Black Dog]

Assuming this is current, the share is 5%

http://www.mri.gov.on.ca/obr/?p=1440

"Ontario’s craft brewer’s share has more than doubled since 2002, rising from slightly less than two per cent to approximately five per cent of beer volume sold in Ontario. Craft beer continues to be the fastest growing segment within the LCBO’s beer category, with current growth rates over 10 per cent per year.

“We’d like to see our share at 15 or 20 per cent,” says McMullen. "

That's the link under discussion. 5% in 2011. In 2012, sales were up 45% from the year prior. Sales in 2013 were up 28% over that.

[Boges]

I attribute those number in the proliferation of Hipsterism :-D

[guyser]

That's the link under discussion. 5% in 2011. In 2012, sales were up 45% from the year prior. Sales in 2013 were up 28% over that.

Even the wiki page, presumably written by the CB of Ont still says 5% and my link frtom the OCB assn says up over 10% from last year.

Not in dispute , sales are rising rapidly and will continue to do so.

So do tell.....instead of Keiths , what should I get? Lets say with a steak or a chop, both bbq'd to rare?

Edited February 12, 2014 by Guyser2