Protest against the LCBO -- Liquor Control Board of Ontario

[guyser]

Even if States control alcohol, you can still buy alcohol at any Walmart or Grocery store anywhere in the States. That type of convenience is what we're looking at to start. Baby Steps.

Dont think so. Some states control all , buy and selling.

And the underage drinking thing is simply fear mongering. The LCBO has no real consequence for selling to underage people. A private retailer would. An LCBO would NEVER get shutdown if they did sell to someone under 19.

Fear mongering brought about by studying the issue? **

You have it backwards I'm afraid. What issue does a LCBO person have by denying a sale? Is it the same as a private seller? Nope, private seeler has profit in mind, the LCBO worker doesnt care.(not to mention the LCBO has Cops in there on weekend nights-main big stores that is)**

Restaurants routinely get their alcohol licenses yanked for selling to underage people. Ditto with Convenience stores and tobacco.

So?

**It isn’t just about the money. There are also social and health reasons for maintaining public control over liquor sales. When it comes to selling booze to minors or drunk customers, for instance, the CCPA Saskatchewan study shows public stores in B.C. are twice more likely than private stores to do the right thing by turning away the customer. That study also notes that after the 1993 decision to privatize liquor sales in Alberta, Edmonton police reported double the amount of offences for minors in possession of alcohol. An earlier CCPA study noted that 10 years after Alberta privatized its liquor sales, that province had the second highest drunk driving rate in Canada. Supporters of privatization often try to win us over with the promise of wine and beer readily accessible at corner stores. But there is a downside: The Centre for Addictions Research for British Columbia reported that between 2003 and 2008, an increase in private liquor stores was correlated with a rise in alcohol-related deaths. - See more at: https://www.policyalternatives.ca/publications/commentary/lcbo-privatization-doesnt-pass-breathalyzer-test#sthash.tEJIEkwA.dpuf

https://www.policyalternatives.ca/publications/commentary/lcbo-privatization-doesnt-pass-breathalyzer-test

[Boges]

Wow! you really believe the Social Responsibility lie don't you?

If it was about Social Responsibility, they wouldn't advertise and give people free magazines that glorify alcohol consumption.

Also anything coming from the Centre from Policy Alternatives should be taken with the same grain of salt as the Fraser Institute.

[guyser]

Wow! you really believe the Social Responsibility lie don't you?

I believe the LCBO is far more careful than any private seller is. But again, the police report told me enough.

If it was about Social Responsibility, they wouldn't advertise and give people free magazines that glorify alcohol consumption.

Not sure one begets the other.

Also anything coming from the Centre from Policy Alternatives should be taken with the same grain of salt as the Fraser Institute.

As in reverse? Ok, fair enough, I have issues with Fraser too.

[Boges]

They're both partisan think tanks. When you have studies from the Fraser Institute that say government is too large, do you believe them?

When I was in the states I bought a case of beer at a Walmart and got carded, I haven't been carded at a Lickbo in as long as I can remember, obviously I don't look under 19 so I wouldn't expect to be. But I think an employee at a Walmart knows that if he/she fails to take a precaution he/she can easily be terminated. An LCBO employee has a union to back them and oppose a termination at every step of the process.

So no I don't agree that private sector employees are more likely to sell alcohol to minors.

But is that even the right question to be asking as we have studies that show the age is to high to begin with and the taboo we create around alcohol is actually creating more binge drinking amongst youth. Especially boys.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Boges

[guyser]

So no I don't agree that private sector employees are more likely to sell alcohol to minors.

Tell the study the Edmonton Police have you dont believe them. Or that drunk driving went up.

But is that even the right question to be asking as we have studies that show the age is to high to begin with and the taboo we create around alcohol is actually creating more binge drinking amongst youth. Especially boys.

Thats another thread topis IME since either public or private this issue would still be here, especially since it is a cultural issue in many aspects .

[Boges]

Tell the study the Edmonton Police have you dont believe them. Or that drunk driving went up.

Drunk driving specifically from minors that shouldn't be drinking in the first place.

I would think drunk driving is more of a problem associated with bars and restaurants rather than liqour stores.

[guyser]

Drunk driving specifically from minors that shouldn't be drinking in the first place.

Read these two separately and tell me the contradiction inherit in both , and in some of your posts on this thread.

I would think drunk driving is more of a problem associated with bars and restaurants rather than liqour stores.

[Boges]

I was just asking if the increase in drunk driving had to do with minors being given alcohol in private liqour stores. That would be pretty hard to prove IYAM.

You can get alcohol from a private business all the time from a bar or restaurant. Those businesses stand to lose their liqour licenses should they serve minors.

When discussing Drunk Driving, someone has to examine where the driving person is coming from and going. USUALLY when people purchase alcohol at a store they do it for consumption at home. (obviously parties and BBQs are an exception) whereas when you go to a restaurant or a bar it's assumed you have to commute home.

I really don't think the LCBO create its policies and pricing model based on the likelihood that someone will drive drunk. Because if that were the case, then they should, in theory, offer a lower price to places that have ample public transit, because people likely drive less there.

[guyser]

The report linked said that possession charges went up when privatized booze stores came to be in Alberta.

I was just asking if the increase in drunk driving had to do with minors being given alcohol in private liqour stores. That would be pretty hard to prove IYAM.

Apparently they were able to.

I really don't think the LCBO create its policies and pricing model based on the likelihood that someone will drive drunk. Because if that were the case, then they should, in theory, offer a lower price to places that have ample public transit, because people likely drive less there.

Did you know the LCBO deliberately prices lower alchol% booze cheaper than higher Alc% stuff? Its done in an effort to reduce consumption of the higher booze stuff.

[Boges]

Did you know the LCBO deliberately prices lower alchol% booze cheaper than higher Alc% stuff? Its done in an effort to reduce consumption of the higher booze stuff.

Cite? Most "Spirits" are 80 proof. Single Malt Scotch and Screetch will get you drunk equally as fast. Now there are these lower alcohol, sweetened liqours that are marketed specifically towards a younger and female customer base.

If social responsibility was the goal then perhaps those alcohols should be priced differently or even banned as with flavoured tobacco.

As for beers, the LCBO routinely offers high alcohol craft beers (up to 8-10%) in singles, so you don't even have to buy a case. None are more than $3 a can.

While the "light" Corona is one of the more pricey beers, I guess because it's a trendy party drink.

So I don't know why you keep believing the Social Responsibility angle. It's a lie, it's all about justifying an ungodly markup.

[WestCoastRunner]

As for beers, the LCBO routinely offers high alcohol craft beers (up to 8-10%) in singles, so you don't even have to buy a case. None are more than $3 a can.

$3 a can! wow, here in BC, for a single can of local craft beer, it will cost around $5.00. Where do these high alcohol craft beers for $3 a can come from?

[WestCoastRunner]

I know. There's similar discussions going on here in BC but it all seems bogged down in moral panic.

Tell me about it. And now we expect these clowns to somehow usher in the legalization/criminalization of pot?

It's enough to drive you to heroin.

BC will actually allow grocery stores to start selling beer and wine in grocery stores this year. However, as long as Harper is in power, marijuana will never be legalized.

[Black Dog]

**It isn’t just about the money. There are also social and health reasons for maintaining public control over liquor sales. When it comes to selling booze to minors or drunk customers, for instance, the CCPA Saskatchewan study shows public stores in B.C. are twice more likely than private stores to do the right thing by turning away the customer. That study also notes that after the 1993 decision to privatize liquor sales in Alberta, Edmonton police reported double the amount of offences for minors in possession of alcohol. An earlier CCPA study noted that 10 years after Alberta privatized its liquor sales, that province had the second highest drunk driving rate in Canada. Supporters of privatization often try to win us over with the promise of wine and beer readily accessible at corner stores. But there is a downside: The Centre for Addictions Research for British Columbia reported that between 2003 and 2008, an increase in private liquor stores was correlated with a rise in alcohol-related deaths. - See more at: https://www.policyalternatives.ca/publications/commentary/lcbo-privatization-doesnt-pass-breathalyzer-test#sthash.tEJIEkwA.dpuf

https://www.policyalternatives.ca/publications/commentary/lcbo-privatization-doesnt-pass-breathalyzer-test

That stuff sounds like horseshit to me. Take the drunk driving numbers in Alberta for instance. Sure, Alberta has private liquor stores. But Alberta also experienced a population boom in that same period with lots of young folks coming in with money to burn, a population that likes to drink and party. Another explanation for the uptick in numbers would be any increases in enforcement would result in more arrests and convictions (also applies to minors possessing booze). Is that accounted for?

As I've said a million times before correlation does not prove causation and to suggest that it does in this case is simple fearmongering.

[guyser]

That stuff sounds like horseshit to me. Take the drunk driving numbers in Alberta for instance. Sure, Alberta has private liquor stores. But Alberta also experienced a population boom in that same period with lots of young folks coming in with money to burn, a population that likes to drink and party. Another explanation for the uptick in numbers would be any increases in enforcement would result in more arrests and convictions (also applies to minors possessing booze). Is that accounted for?

Not actually sure. Were the numbers per or overall, I dont know.

As I've said a million times before correlation does not prove causation and to suggest that it does in this case is simple fearmongering.

And I know you have said it

But I am not fear mongering in the least, as I dont see much problem either way but I will admit I think the LC does a better job than a private seller in denying underagers from buying.

When we were last over this my angle was pretty much always that why bother changing the system? The money is great for the Prov coffers, the availablity is better on an over all basis, the stores are clean and easy to access and the pricing, while it copuld be better, is as good as or cheaper than the Alta.

[Boges]

When we were last over this my angle was pretty much always that why bother changing the system? The money is great for the Prov coffers, the availablity is better on an over all basis, the stores are clean and easy to access and the pricing, while it copuld be better, is as good as or cheaper than the Alta.

Because it's insulting being treated like a child by a government addicted to alcohol revenue.

[guyser]

Because it's insulting being treated like a child by a government addicted to alcohol revenue.

um....yea? Care to explain?

[Boges]

um....yea? Care to explain?

Why can't people in Ontario have access to alcohol 24/7? Almost everyone in North America does. People in the UK can. I'm sure other parts of Europe. But here in Ontario, 5pm on a Sunday, can't buy a bottle of wine unless it's from a restaurant.

The LCBO is has Union that pays cashiers and clerks like $24/hour, there are similar salaries for Beer Store workers, and the government enforces that such salaried workers don't have to face competition. There are agency stores in rural communities and restricted Wine Outlets but that's It. You want alcohol, you have to buy them through those avenues. The government knows what's best, we can't allow other retailers to sell alcohol cuz that could lead to dancing. . . I guess.

The prices are kept high under the guise of "social responsibility" yet the LCBO, the only game in town, spends millions advertising to use how great the product they sell is. It's a two-faced lie! The government needs the money to give free daycare to 5-year-olds and cancel gas plants.

I've never been to Alberta, so I don't know what the differences in prices are. But I'd rather pay a bit more if I had the option not to support an organization like the LCBO, but I'd imagine because they profit margins are less we won't. Let the market decide, but not in Nanny state Ontario!

Does Alberta enforce mandatory minimum prices for alcohol? does Alberta tell suppliers to raise the prices they charge so they can apply a flat markup that reaches a minimum price they want to charge? Does Alberta have a Beer Store owned by the Big 3 brewers that actually work against craft brewers?

Edited April 8, 2014 by Boges

[Mighty AC]

The money is great for the Prov coffers, the availablity is better on an over all basis, the stores are clean and easy to access and the pricing, while it copuld be better, is as good as or cheaper than the Alta.

As mentioned previously the province would take in more money if they went the partial privatization route.

[guyser]

As mentioned previously the province would take in more money if they went the partial privatization route.

Why would ONt be any different than Alberta, where revenue has dropped to the Province?

Critics also like to cite Alberta for the downside of privatization: Namely the fact that the Alberta government has seen steadily declining revenues from alcohol sales for the past two decades

http://www.macleans.ca/economy/business/alconomics-should-ontario-privatize-liquor-sales/

[guyser]

Why can't people in Ontario have access to alcohol 24/7? Almost everyone in North America does. People in the UK can. I'm sure other parts of Europe. But here in Ontario, 5pm on a Sunday, can't buy a bottle of wine unless it's from a restaurant.

The laws everywhere, vary by great degree. A number of US states its illegal to sell on Sunday, some restrict what can be bought on those days and at what times.

Some states have memberships to buy before you can buy booze. The simple fact is the laws are all over the place.

And lastly, 6pm on a Sunday is when LCBO closes near me, not sure if thats the norm or not.

The prices are kept high under the guise of "social responsibility"

So whats Albertas excuse?

Does Alberta enforce mandatory minimum prices for alcohol? does Alberta tell suppliers to raise the prices they charge so they can apply a flat markup that reaches a minimum price they want to charge? Does Alberta have a Beer Store owned by the Big 3 brewers that actually work against craft brewers?

In any event, they pay a bit more so these questions are at best moot

Edited April 8, 2014 by Guyser2

[Black Dog]

Why would ONt be any different than Alberta, where revenue has dropped to the Province?

http://www.macleans.ca/economy/business/alconomics-should-ontario-privatize-liquor-sales/

And yet...

However, (Alberta) still earns more per capita than either Ontario or Quebec, which long ago allowed private stores to sell beer and wine, but not hard liquor.

...

What’s interesting in Ontario is that government revenues are substantially lower than other provinces that also have monopolies on the alcohol distribution and sales. Revenues per capita from alcohol have increased just eight per cent in nearly 20 years in the province. Despite moving to a privatized system, the Alberta government still takes in more per capita on alcohol sales than Ontario.

As for pricing, I've not seen anything concrete comparing the two. However, I will say from experience that in Alberta there are wholesale liquor retailers that sell for a lot less than anything you can get here. You also have liquor stores that charge more because they are open late or are centrally located, which would probably push the average price up.

Alberta also has superior product availability.

[guyser]

And yet...

Isnt that same as prior to the private move?

However, I will say from experience that in Alberta there are wholesale liquor retailers that sell for a lot less than anything you can get here.

That cannot be true. ALberta govt is still the wholesaler....so...?

Alberta also has superior product availability.

While some stores will, not all will, which goes against your idea of access no matter where one lives. In effect it would be two tier selling.

[Boges]

That cannot be true. ALberta govt is still the wholesaler....so...?

While some stores will, not all will, which goes against your idea of access no matter where one lives. In effect it would be two tier selling.

You think the LCBO distributes across the Province equally? Some stores have better selection than others. These "Express" store that probably won't ever get built are supposed to have a limited selection.

The LCBO don't charge more, where they potentially could. There's a giant LCBO in a posh part of Toronto that sells a bottle of Screetch for the same price as in Godrich, Owen Sound or Dryden.

The irony is that that in rural areas where the LCBO doesn't think it worthwhile to build a store, there are what's called "Agency Stores" where the alcohol does get provided by a private retailers who can set their hours.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Boges

[Mighty AC]

Why would ONt be any different than Alberta, where revenue has dropped to the Province?

The 05 study cited in this post, predicts a $200M annual increase in revenue through privatization. The report suggests that tax revenue coupled with revenue garnered through the auction of limited term wholesale and retail licenses would lead to increased cash flow while limiting risk.

From page 64 of the report:

Second, maximizing taxpayer value. The recommended option

produced what we consider the optimal financial returns (that is,

the best financial result in the context of the stated objectives) for

the people of Ontario.

Under our proposal, the government would keep the equivalent

of its present revenue stream from the beverage alcohol system

– approximately $1.5 billion a year. This money would be collected

as products reached the wholesale level. The government does not

need to operate a wholesale or retail business in order to collect

revenue from beverage alcohol.

Under our proposal, the government would also obtain substantial

additional revenue on an ongoing basis from the auctioning of

wholesale and retail licences to the private sector. The successful

bidders would pay for an opportunity to operate wholesale or retail

facilities for a fixed term. We estimate that the licensing approach

could yield incremental value to the province of $200 million or

more annually, after a transition period.

[guyser]

You think the LCBO distributes across the Province equally?

Yes they do ! All products are available one way or another. But yes, some stores , like the agency store inside the grocery store at the cottage has limits, but thats cool, solves the access problem you like to talk about.

Some stores have better selection than others. These "Express" store that probably won't ever get built are supposed to have a limited selection.

If of the same grade store, slection is the same. They have varying degrees of stores. This is the same as many retailers, like the old Eatons Stores outside of TO were much smaller, but all products could be sought thru them.

The LCBO don't charge more, where they potentially could. There's a giant LCBO in a posh part of Toronto that sells a bottle of Screetch for the same price as in Godrich, Owen Sound or Dryden.

Thats the right approach I think. Good for us who live in TO

The irony is that that in rural areas where the LCBO doesn't think it worthwhile to build a store, there are what's called "Agency Stores" where the alcohol does get provided by a private retailers who can set their hours.

No they do NOT.

Hours are set by LCBO mandate. The operators cannot set the hours for alcohol sales.