Occupy Christmas

[jbg]

Violence mars Black Friday

Incidents also occurred in South Carolina, North Carolina, Florida, New York, Alabama and Connecticut, with most of the reported incidents happening at or near Walmart stores.

So called Black Friday is getting blacker. What a freak show!

This time, good post. Thanks for the link.

[jbg]

If you think it's ever OK just to make the minimum payment then yes it's a personal problem.

I'll even forgive times where you lose your job. But that can't be a majority of the people with credit problem, at some point it's gotta be a lack of proper money management skills.

You couldn't be more right. I am a bankruptcy lawyer and see this as a tragedy.

On a personal note, on November 28, 2010 I took my children to the local Walmart to pick up a birthday gift for my wife. I saw the store thronged with shoppers. Most of them had infants or small children in tow. It was clear, from looking at their clothing or listening to them talk that these were not people of wealth. Most seemed to be lower middle class. Most also had shopping carts overflowing with what appeared to be gifts. Songs like "Frosty the Snowman" and "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" filled the speakers in the store. Children were hoping "Santa" would deliver all kinds of gifts that they had seen on TV commercials.

As a bankruptcy lawyer (even though generally I do not handle personal cases) I am very concerned that most of these people cannot afford to indulge their childrens' every wish and fancy. Indeed, many of the gifts likely lay unused after the children returned to school on January 3, 2011. By the end of the school year many of the children will have outgrown the toys anyway. And put bluntly, these are not people who can afford to waste money.

These people will be paying, on installment credit, ultra-high interest to finance gifts that they cannot afford. I have no doubt that some of those people were in our office on our "consumer" side. I am almost as distressed when I see this spectacle as when I see similar people betting a week's paycheck on "Horse No. 6" at the track.

[Guest Manny]

This time, good post. Thanks for the link.

Hey cool, glad you can see eye to eye with me, somtimes!

[Hydraboss]

Oh, wait. Now it is a lack of proper money management skills that tens, if not hundreds, of millions of people are burdened with. So then if you know someone lacks a skill or awareness, what would you be if you took advantage of that?

Rich.

And once again...who cares?

It is not my problem if Ted and Nancy are financially retarded. It's theirs. It is not my problem if they can't read the little numbers in front of the "%" symbol. It's theirs. Every time one of these meatheads defaults on a payment, I climb the ladder in the credit rating department. I'm hoping to break through the "2% default" category eventually (I think that's a credit score of over 800 or so). Please, please, please keep letting the mentally-challenged cousins of credit get new cards with higher limits. I'm sure they'll have fun buying 20th anniversary Tickle Me Elmo's and Four Cheese Kraft Dinner, so let them enjoy it. My kids will have less competition getting into university with "those people" as their competitors.

[Boges]

Obviously there was some change agent involved that allowed you to become aware of the situation, which was a good thing wouldn't you agree?

Yeah but they made me aware of it because I wanted to pay a lower equal-billing rate. They didn't just call me up to tell me that I was getting screwed.

[Shwa]

And once again...who cares?

Everyone ought to care.

It is not my problem if Ted and Nancy are financially retarded. It's theirs. It is not my problem if they can't read the little numbers in front of the "%" symbol. It's theirs. Every time one of these meatheads defaults on a payment, I climb the ladder in the credit rating department. I'm hoping to break through the "2% default" category eventually (I think that's a credit score of over 800 or so). Please, please, please keep letting the mentally-challenged cousins of credit get new cards with higher limits. I'm sure they'll have fun buying 20th anniversary Tickle Me Elmo's and Four Cheese Kraft Dinner, so let them enjoy it. My kids will have less competition getting into university with "those people" as their competitors.

Rich.

Boiling down a chronic societal problem into the neat little "Ted and Nancy" allegory so you can comprehend the problem. Trouble is, your problem ignores scale and when one is dealing a chronic societal problem that includes 10s, if not 100s, of millions of people your personal gains are completely insignificant with one exception: I, for one, will be very glad when your kids get into University.

[Hydraboss]

Why would I give a damn about someone else's credit mistakes or lack of knowledge?

You and I will never see eye to eye on this, because we have differing views on one very important point:

I believe in personal responsibility and you don't.

Whether it's overusing credit, or alcohol, or drugs, or committing murder, or internet porn, or not paying a mortgage - it's that individual's responsibility. Not mine. Not yours.

You, on the other hand, seem to believe that no one is responsible for anything. Everything negative that happens is for society to fix. And feel guilty about. Alcoholic? Must be because society put liquor laws and stores in place. Shoot some heroin in your arm? Society's fault. Commit murder? Must have had an abusive childhood - let the guy walk. Credit problems? That's because those evil credit card companies/banks dared to give a low life the opportunity to borrow money - it's not that guy's fault if he buys three HDTVs but doesn't pay his power bill.

Society has a responsibility to look after certain things: roads, homeland security, garbage collection, availability of basic necessesities. Not the actions of stupid people.

There is an explanation for this behaviour and Ron White said it best:

[Hydraboss]

By the way - what you call a "chronic societal problem" used to be known as a "fact". There have always been dumb people. The biggest mistake society ever made was trying to fight against Darwinian theory.

[Moonlight Graham]

Christmas is for everyone.

If Occupy Christmas has given you pause, even for one moment, about the rampant and out-of-control consumerism that surrounds it, they have done their job.

However, like practically all indigenous winter solistic celebrations all over the world, in practically all time periods, gift giving was and is an honoured and respected tradition. How you define what those gifts are and how you give them is key.

Couldn't have put it better Shwa.

[Shwa]

Why would I give a damn about someone else's credit mistakes or lack of knowledge?

Why would I give a damn about your personal gains compared to the losses of millions and downward trajectory of the standard of living? See? You are unable to think to scale so you make up nice, convenient - but ultimately meaningless - allegory.

You and I will never see eye to eye on this, because we have differing views on one very important point:

We can't see eye to eye because your ability to think in abstracts larger than yourself appear not to exist.

I believe in personal responsibility and you don't.

Oh, but I do and I am a personally responsible person who devotes many hours to community causes to boot - you know, helping others and all that stupid crap. See, again, you can't think properly of anything past your nose.

Whether it's overusing credit, or alcohol, or drugs, or committing murder, or internet porn, or not paying a mortgage - it's that individual's responsibility. Not mine. Not yours.

Yep, but not just an individual, remember you are dealing with "Ted and Nancy." That's two individuals.

You, on the other hand, seem to believe that no one is responsible for anything. Everything negative that happens is for society to fix. And feel guilty about. Alcoholic? Must be because society put liquor laws and stores in place. Shoot some heroin in your arm? Society's fault. Commit murder? Must have had an abusive childhood - let the guy walk. Credit problems? That's because those evil credit card companies/banks dared to give a low life the opportunity to borrow money - it's not that guy's fault if he buys three HDTVs but doesn't pay his power bill.

Yes, because our present economic problems are all about the "guy" buying three HDTVs.

Society has a responsibility to look after certain things: roads, homeland security, garbage collection, availability of basic necessesities. Not the actions of stupid people.

Not in the modern welfare state Daddy-O. Hence, the comment about your kids going to university. It can't be too soon IMO.

[Shwa]

By the way - what you call a "chronic societal problem" used to be known as a "fact". There have always been dumb people. The biggest mistake society ever made was trying to fight against Darwinian theory.

You survived didn't you? You should be thankful for society's mistakes.

[Boges]

You survived didn't you? You should be thankful for society's mistakes.

Oh snap!

That must have broken a board rule or two.

[Hydraboss]

Oh snap!

That must have broken a board rule or two.

People here need to care a little less about the "board rules" when it comes to minor things like this. That type of comment used to be commonplace on here years ago and it was better when it was.

No harm no foul.

[Hydraboss]

Why would I give a damn about your personal gains compared to the losses of millions and downward trajectory of the standard of living? See? You are unable to think to scale so you make up nice, convenient - but ultimately meaningless - allegory.

I never asked you to care. It's not really your business to. My standard of living is just fine thank you. The "Ted and Nancy story" is demonstrative/symptomatic of the why society has gone off the rails. Call it what you will.

We can't see eye to eye because your ability to think in abstracts larger than yourself appear not to exist.

I know quite well that these things exist. So do mountains and people with six fingers on each hand. Interesting, but still not my problem.

Oh, but I do and I am a personally responsible person who devotes many hours to community causes to boot - you know, helping others and all that stupid crap. See, again, you can't think properly of anything past your nose.

By your definition of "properly" not mine. My responsibility begins and ends with my family, not yours.

Yep, but not just an individual, remember you are dealing with "Ted and Nancy." That's two individuals.

So there's more than one stupid person in the world. What a newsflash. There's also how many millions of smokers out there that will die knowing full well that cigarettes are causing it (at least in part). Not my problem. Not yours either. The information is out there, and by out there I mean directly in their faces. If they choose to ignore it, that's their problem.

Yes, because our present economic problems are all about the "guy" buying three HDTVs.

Again, the HDTV scenario is a symptom. There is no one magic bullet for current economic problems so quit acting like this plays no part in it. If they quit making tv's, these people would spend money they don't have on something else. Maybe beer and popcorn?

Not in the modern welfare state Daddy-O. Hence, the comment about your kids going to university. It can't be too soon IMO.

Modern welfare state. There you go; there's your problem. Maybe there IS a magic bullet. As for my kids, they are true-blue Albertans who, at the ages of 13 and 14, already know "the system" doesn't owe them any favors. They'll be fine.

[Hydraboss]

You survived didn't you? You should be thankful for society's mistakes.

Yes, I did survive and no one (read: society) had to bail my ass out. This would be what you refer to as a "mistake" - when someone doesn't need a welfare-style handout to survive.

People like me call it a success. Survival of the fittest.

[GostHacked]

Who said anything about small businesses not accepting credit cards at all? People use their credit cards for everything to accumulate points and other perks. When you make small purchases at locally owned small businesses that you could otherwise pay for with cash or debit, you're robbing that business of that 4%. People should be a little more conscientious of this. Most aren't even aware.

When you use your credit card at a business, the business pays the credit card company a 4% fee on every credit card transaction. So you are saving them money by paying with cash or debit.

Edited November 30, 2011 by GostHacked

[Shwa]

Oh snap!

That must have broken a board rule or two.

Says he who liberally uses pictures of frogs.

[Shwa]

I never asked you to care. It's not really your business to. My standard of living is just fine thank you. The "Ted and Nancy story" is demonstrative/symptomatic of the why society has gone off the rails. Call it what you will.

The Ted and Nancy Show says nothing since it is a simplistic allegory.

I know quite well that these things exist. So do mountains and people with six fingers on each hand. Interesting, but still not my problem.

That has yet to be demonstrated by any comprehension of the scope of the problem.

By your definition of "properly" not mine. My responsibility begins and ends with my family, not yours.

Yes, hence my remark about me wanting your kids to go to university sooner than later.

So there's more than one stupid person in the world. What a newsflash. There's also how many millions of smokers out there that will die knowing full well that cigarettes are causing it (at least in part). Not my problem. Not yours either. The information is out there, and by out there I mean directly in their faces. If they choose to ignore it, that's their problem.

If it wasn't our problem, then explain anti-smoking bylaws.

Again, the HDTV scenario is a symptom. There is no one magic bullet for current economic problems so quit acting like this plays no part in it. If they quit making tv's, these people would spend money they don't have on something else. Maybe beer and popcorn?

C'mon man. The HDTV isn't even a "scenario."

Modern welfare state. There you go; there's your problem. Maybe there IS a magic bullet. As for my kids, they are true-blue Albertans who, at the ages of 13 and 14, already know "the system" doesn't owe them any favors. They'll be fine.

Modern welfare state Dad and no matter how much "true-blue" you go in the face wishing it weren't so, it will never go away and is the trend for the entire planet. Your kids will learn this in university and thus surpass you in understanding. We'll all be better off for it.