Occupy Christmas

[cybercoma]

No one is suggesting you walk into a store and count out thousands of dollars in cash.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I didn't catch anyone who mentioned the purpose of credit cards to begin with...

It is a payment tool. It is meant to be paid off before the interest kicks in. That is why interest rates are so high, to encourage you to pay the card off. If you pay your balance before the end of the month, you pay 0 dollars in interest. If you can't do that, the rate is meant to encourage you to move it to a longer term debt payment plan if you have overspent. They make more money in the 3 or 4% cut of each purchase than in the interest being held by others. If your card his loaded with debt, you aren't making purchases.

If you need a debt tool, take out a loan or line of credit. Their interest rate is lower and meant for holding debt.

Edited November 26, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Guest American Woman]

55% of families in the US carry credit card balances. That means 45% do not. So roughly half of people in the US know how to use credit cards responsibly.

Having a credit card balance doesn't mean one doesn't know how to use credit cards responsibly. Interest rates vary greatly, and if one can afford the payments, what is the different between having a credit card balance for home improvements/vacations/home furnishings etc. than having a secured bank loan for a brand new expensive vehicle? Perhaps the credit card balance is the only debt they have. Does that make them less responsible than someone who has bank loan debt?

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Having a credit card balance doesn't mean one doesn't know how to use credit cards responsibly. Interest rates vary greatly, and if one can afford the payments, what is the different between having a credit card balance for home improvements/vacations/home furnishings etc. than having a secured bank loan for a brand new expensive vehicle? Perhaps the credit card balance is the only debt they have. Does that make them less responsible than someone who has bank loan debt?

Loans and lines of credits are for such things

They also offer much lower interest rates.

Using credit cards for holding a debt balance is in the realm of being financially retarded.

[Guest American Woman]

Loans and lines of credits are for such things

They also offer much lower interest rates.

Not necessarily. I'll repeat again: "Interest rates vary greatly." Often times, one can get 0% for a year. I've been offered 2.9% for the life of the loan. Both are much better offers than any bank would give me for a home improvement loan, a car loan, a vacation loan, or whatever.

Using credit cards for holding a debt balance is in the realm of being financially retarded.

That's a matter of opinion. Some would say that paying a higher interest rate for a secured loan from a bank is less financially sound than using a credit card with a lower interest rate.

Edited November 26, 2011 by American Woman

[Shwa]

The interest rate is what it is. It is plainly stated. If one does not wish to pay the stated interest rate, one shouldn't borrow using that credit vehicle. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

It is plainly stated? Not all credit situations follow the Bonam-As-Ideal, I am sure you agrer to that.

What's wrong with transferring debt to a low interest line of credit? That's precisely what one should do, if one must carry a debt balance.

We are talking about your behaviour as being typical. Unless you transfer your credit card debt to a low interest LoC every month to make it look like you 'paid it off.'

30% isn't exactly atypical. But yes, the majority seem to be less responsible with their credit cards. And, your point?

Well then it begs the question, if the greater portion of the population that uses credit cards, does not subscribe to your particular ideal, then why not?

You attribute their behaviour to "stupid." Now there is a proven social phenomenon (you've proved it yourself, above) that negatively affects tens, if not hundreds, of millions of people and all you can come up with is "stupid?"

That sounds like a cop out and nothing more.

[Boges]

Well then it begs the question, if the greater portion of the population that uses credit cards, does not subscribe to your particular ideal, then why not?

You attribute their behaviour to "stupid." Now there is a proven social phenomenon (you've proved it yourself, above) that negatively affects tens, if not hundreds, of millions of people and all you can come up with is "stupid?"

That sounds like a cop out and nothing more.

Or people are unwilling to live within their means and feel entitled to buy whatever they want even though they know they have no realistic method for payment.

What's you're hypothesis as to why a great many people don't use their CC's properly?

Sure there are predatory lenders, I get sent letters offering me CC's all the time, they usually offer a really low introductory interest rate. But that's just bait.

Oh and for every CC I've ever owned, they interest rate is clearly stated. It's also usually on every single bill you get.

[Guest American Woman]

Oh and for every CC I've ever owned, they interest rate is clearly stated. It's also usually on every single bill you get.

In the U.S. it's required by law. Some of the offers at low introductory rates don't specifically state what the interest will be after the introductory rate is up, though - they say it will be between this rate and that rate, usually about a 10% difference between rates, "depending on [the card holder's] credit standing." Perhaps that's what Shwa is referring to, but one must be sure they have no debt at the end of the introductory rate or they could be sucked in to paying a high interest rate. There are smart ways to use credit cards to one's advantage.

[Shwa]

Or people are unwilling to live within their means and feel entitled to buy whatever they want even though they know they have no realistic method for payment.

What's you're hypothesis as to why a great many people don't use their CC's properly?

Sure there are predatory lenders, I get sent letters offering me CC's all the time, they usually offer a really low introductory interest rate. But that's just bait.

Oh and for every CC I've ever owned, they interest rate is clearly stated. It's also usually on every single bill you get.

I am sure there are many reasons why people get caught up using their credit cards and debt spiral.

Here are some.

But lumping them all in as "stupid" compared to someone else's atypical behaviour isn't very helpful now is it? I know people who have lost jobs and have had to rely on credit cards to make payments on things until they get another job - some even groceries; I know students who use credit cards to get by lean times. Then there is a the whole phenomenon of consumerism and the keeping-up-with-the-jones which has free reign over the public right now.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Not necessarily. I'll repeat again: "Interest rates vary greatly." Often times, one can get 0% for a year. I've been offered 2.9% for the life of the loan. Both are much better offers than any bank would give me for a home improvement loan, a car loan, a vacation loan, or whatever.

0% interest credit cards are time limited, often come with fees, and are meant only to get you to switch institutions. My brother was into 0% interest credit card, you can't keep switching companies (he found that out). They often start from time of card application and not time of credit card being received.

People who are consistently carrying debt, as the ones we are discussing, should not be doing so on a credit card. Most people would not be paying off a $15,000 credit card purchase in 6 months, after which the rates sky rocket.

[Guest Manny]

Walmart is the anti-christ...

Sorry but I'm not paying more for the exact same thing made in China at a local store just because.

Violence mars Black Friday

Incidents also occurred in South Carolina, North Carolina, Florida, New York, Alabama and Connecticut, with most of the reported incidents happening at or near Walmart stores.

So called Black Friday is getting blacker. What a freak show!

[Guest American Woman]

People who are consistently carrying debt, as the ones we are discussing, should not be doing so on a credit card. Most people would not be paying off a $15,000 credit card purchase in 6 months, after which the rates sky rocket.

Yes, I understand that, as clearly indicated in my post. No, most people would not be paying off that size purchase in a year, and I never indicated that they would. But as I did actually say, sometimes one is offered a low interest rate for the life of the loan. You know, the part of my post you chose not to put in bold

print? So yes, sometimes it makes good sense to carry debt on a credit card. Credit card debt isn't necessarily bad and/or irresponsible debt. Which was my original point.

Edited November 26, 2011 by American Woman

[bush_cheney2004]

....So yes, sometimes it makes good sense to carry debt on a credit card. Credit card debt isn't necessarily bad and/or irresponsible debt. Which was my original point.

Right, and as you clearly stated, it's all in how one chooses to manage the debt servicing. US banks are clamouring to get the "good times" rolling again with big fat $10,000 one-year-interest-free credit card products, hoping that the debt is not paid off at that time. It's good for balance transfers or new purchases, but not cash advances, otherwise I would be all over them like stink on poop.

[Boges]

I am sure there are many reasons why people get caught up using their credit cards and debt spiral.

Here are some.

But lumping them all in as "stupid" compared to someone else's atypical behaviour isn't very helpful now is it? I know people who have lost jobs and have had to rely on credit cards to make payments on things until they get another job - some even groceries; I know students who use credit cards to get by lean times. Then there is a the whole phenomenon of consumerism and the keeping-up-with-the-jones which has free reign over the public right now.

All of which are personal problems and not the fault of the bank. As was said many times already, there are lower interest options for people need to take on debt. CC's are just easy.

[Shwa]

All of which are personal problems and not the fault of the bank. As was said many times already, there are lower interest options for people need to take on debt. CC's are just easy.

Imagine then, tens, perhaps hundreds, of millions of people all with the same type of personal problems.

It can simply be put down to human nature then, yes?

[Boges]

Imagine then, tens, perhaps hundreds, of millions of people all with the same type of personal problems.

It can simply be put down to human nature then, yes?

If you think it's ever OK just to make the minimum payment then yes it's a personal problem.

I'll even forgive times where you lose your job. But that can't be a majority of the people with credit problem, at some point it's gotta be a lack of proper money management skills.

[Shwa]

If you think it's ever OK just to make the minimum payment then yes it's a personal problem.

I'll even forgive times where you lose your job. But that can't be a majority of the people with credit problem, at some point it's gotta be a lack of proper money management skills.

Oh, wait. Now it is a lack of proper money management skills that tens, if not hundreds, of millions of people are burdened with. So then if you know someone lacks a skill or awareness, what would you be if you took advantage of that?

[Boges]

So then if you know someone lacks a skill or awareness, what would you be if you took advantage of that?

A successful salesman.

When I first moved into my home a man came to my door representing an energy company. He wanted me to sign a contract fixing my gas-bill rate for 5-years. He told me a bold-faced lied that the rate I would be paying would be the same but it was fixed.

He was nice enough so I signed up. I was a new home owner and had no idea what the going rate for natural gas was. Months later I noticed the rate was jacked up. I went back on my records to realize the price I was paying now was much higher. The fuckers even waited to change the bill so the cool down period had passed so I was S-O-L. I still have like 2 years left to pay far above market rate natural gas.

Now this guy was a scumbag but ultimately it should have been my responsibility to know that he was scamming me.

Same deal with predatory lenders.

[eyeball]

Oh, wait. Now it is a lack of proper money management skills that tens, if not hundreds, of millions of people are burdened with. So then if you know someone lacks a skill or awareness, what would you be if you took advantage of that?

Oh oh oh...I know the answer...

...a money manager?

[bush_cheney2004]

...It can simply be put down to human nature then, yes?

Yes....ignorance, greed, and sloth are all basic to human nature.

[Shwa]

Now this guy was a scumbag but ultimately it should have been my responsibility to know that he was scamming me.

Same deal with predatory lenders.

But the problem with this example is that you were caught unaware, that is, you did not know you were being screwed at the time you were being screwed. That is problematic innit?

So... if you are unaware of something, how can you know about it enough to be responsible? Obviously there was some change agent involved that allowed you to become aware of the situation, which was a good thing wouldn't you agree?

[bush_cheney2004]

So... if you are unaware of something, how can you know about it enough to be responsible?

Broke the first rule...be aware.

[Shwa]

Yes....ignorance, greed, and sloth are all basic to human nature.

I disagree. The only basics to human nature appear to the 4-F's. The rest is culture.

[Boges]

So... if you are unaware of something, how can you know about it enough to be responsible? Obviously there was some change agent involved that allowed you to become aware of the situation, which was a good thing wouldn't you agree?

I noticed because when I asked to get my equal billing rate lowered they told me I'd be paying more because I signed with a third party energy distributor. I reviewed the bill and there it was. I was paying more as soon as the company fixed my rate.

Another scam is going around where people try to get you to change water heaters and the people that I have my water heater made me very aware that it's a bit of a scam.

A guy came to my house trying to sell me a subscription to Macleans magazine + 3 other subscriptions. I thought it was a good deal but they made you pre-pay for the subscription and it was way more than I would have had to pay if I just subscribed to the magazine on my own. It's really cheap because I'm a Roger's customer I found out.

Car dealers try to scam you all the time by offering you things you don't need. Or trying to get you to extend your term to the point where you'll be paying for 8 years. Or financing that involve balloon payments.

The big scam that I think a lot of people pay for is the insurance on the credit card where if you stop paying they pay your minimum payment for you but you still rack up huge interest rates.

They really hard sold me on it the last time I got a credit card, but it's a scam. It's not really protecting you against much but it's a lot of extra money they pocket every month I pay a premium. I actually learned about that scam on an episode of Marketplace.

These are some of the risks at living in a free world, people will try to scam you for your money.

It's a salesman's job to make you think you need something you don't. Do you really need a new car or a new iPhone? Probably not but it's a marketing person's job to make you think you do.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Boges

[Shwa]

I noticed because when I asked to get my equal billing rate lowered they told me I'd be paying more because I signed with a third party energy distributor. I reviewed the bill and there it was. I was paying more as soon as the company fixed my rate.

Another scam is going around where people try to get you to change water heaters and the people that I have my water heater made me very aware that it's a bit of a scam.

A guy came to my house trying to sell me a subscription to Macleans magazine + 3 other subscriptions. I thought it was a good deal but they made you pre-pay for the subscription and it was way more than I would have had to pay if I just subscribed to the magazine on my own. It's really cheap because I'm a Roger's customer I found out.

Car dealers try to scam you all the time by offering you things you don't need. Or trying to get you to extend your term to the point where you'll be paying for 8 years. Or financing that involve balloon payments.

The big scam that I think a lot of people pay for is the insurance on the credit card where if you stop paying they pay your minimum payment for you but you still rack up huge interest rates.

They really hard sold me on it the last time I got a credit card, but it's a scam. It's not really protecting you against much but it's a lot of extra money they pocket every month I pay a premium. I actually learned about that scam on an episode of Marketplace.

These are some of the risks at living in a free world, people will try to scam you for your money.

It's a salesman's job to make you think you need something you don't. Do you really need a new car or a new iPhone? Probably not but it's a marketing person's job to make you think you do.

Obviously there was some change agent involved that allowed you to become aware of the situation, which was a good thing wouldn't you agree?