The TTC thread

[bjre]

Toronto Subway and RT has only 69 station and 68.3 kilometer length.

After years and years of quarrel, it can not make any longer, because of lack of money?

Is it talking about the largest city in Canada?

It sounds like a 3rd world country.

Many 3rd world countries has much longer subway lines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metro_systems

Why this can happen?

The reason is not surprise at all in Canada, the nation of monopoly.

No competition, no matter in health industry, in internet/telephone, or in many other places.

People from no matter what other country have no right to do what they are good at, most of them can only be physical labour, even he had been a doctor for 20 years in his home country.

[Boges]

It probably wasn't the best idea for Benedict Stinz to go to this meeting.

To say it was a hot debate is putting it mildly.

Speaking at a townhall on transit in the disputed territory of Scarborough Thursday night, Toronto Transit Commission chair Karen Stintz was, predictably, hit with a round of jeers, boos and insults.

“Subways! Subways!” the crowd roared, drowning out Stintz’s pro-LRT remarks. “Not glorified streetcars!”

“Resign!” some urged.

The debate put Stintz and Gordon Chong, author of the Sheppard Subway report, together on the same public stage for the first time since the subway/LRT debate exploded. The panel, organized by the Toronto Taxpayers Coalition, also included former city manager John Morand and Toronto Sun columnist Sue-Ann Levy.

Stintz argued there is no way to fund a subway without raising taxes, challenging Chong to say where in his plan there is an explanation of how it would be funded.

“Where?” she demanded.

“Are you thick or what?” Chong replied, to enormous applause. “If this mayor and this council would open their minds to all the potential funding tools available we could not only fund this line but a whole network.”

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1143459--subway-the-clear-choice-at-loud-scarborough-transit-meeting

It's an argument I hear on the radio all the time. Many of the people that are advocating LRT's to Scarborough already have Subways in their ward (Stinz included) so they are making decisions for citizens that they don't represent.

[mentalfloss]

Chong answers logic with an insult.

Fail.

[Boges]

Chong answers logic with an insult.

Fail.

Yeah because the left never does that.

He followed up the insult by saying.

“If this mayor and this council would open their minds to all the potential funding tools available we could not only fund this line but a whole network.”

Edited March 9, 2012 by Boges

[cybercoma]

It would have been nice if he actually answered the question.

And people that don't represent those voters get a say in the matter because the cost of the subway system is going to affect everyone.

Moreover, what kind of bumbling morons did they have at this meeting? LRT is not a "streetcar".

Streetcar: http://www.railforthevalley.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/large_streetcar08.jpg

LRT:

Sorry, but LRT is an above-ground subway. There's no reason for the added expense of burying the line. Most advanced cities in the West are beginning to switch over to LRT. The rhetoric coming from Ford and the ridiculous rabble-rousers at this meeting is complete nonsense.

[mentalfloss]

Yeah because the left never does that.

Who said anything about the left? What does this even have to do with the topic???

He followed up the insult by saying.

Big deal. Anyone can say:

"Hey, you know your plan sucks because we could be working on finding other sources of revenue."

If it was clearly evident that a subway could be funded without raising taxes, then he would have listed those sources of revenue already.

Edited March 9, 2012 by mentalfloss

[mentalfloss]

Sorry, but LRT is an above-ground subway. There's no reason for the added expense of burying the line. Most advanced cities in the West are beginning to switch over to LRT. The rhetoric coming from Ford and the ridiculous rabble-rousers at this meeting is complete nonsense.

Agreed.

No amount of funding for propaganda measures (like Ford's 1010 program) or getting failed politicians for PR (like Hudak) will help Ford convince the council otherwise.

[Black Dog]

It's an argument I hear on the radio all the time. Many of the people that are advocating LRT's to Scarborough already have Subways in their ward (Stinz included) so they are making decisions for citizens that they don't represent.

Many of the people advocating subways don't live in those wards either. Therefore, they too are making decisions for citizens that they don't represent. But that's why we have city councils and not a set of self-governing fiefdoms.

He followed up the insult by saying.

“If this mayor and this council would open their minds to all the potential funding tools available we could not only fund this line but a whole network.”

And if a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass hopping. Fact is, the mayor is pathologically opposed to new revenue tools, so saying the subway could be funded with such tools, while true, is completely irrelevant.

[Black Dog]

It's an argument I hear on the radio all the time. Many of the people that are advocating LRT's to Scarborough already have Subways in their ward (Stinz included) so they are making decisions for citizens that they don't represent.

Actually, let's make a deal: Scarberians can discount and ignore the views of those who don't live there and those of us blessed enough to not live in Scarborough don't pay for their subways. Fair?

[Michael Hardner]

This one is rich...

Harper Prefers Subways

Harper entered the contentious subways debate that has plagued Toronto for the last several months. The prime minister noted that he prefers subways over LRTs and streetcars when he takes public transit, but said that there will not be any further funding from the federal government, according to a report from the Globe and Mail.

Thanks for the help !

[cybercoma]

Wait until he gives Rob Ford a senate appointment.

[Topaz]

Why doesn't Ford go to the people and ask them? There's gotta be a easier way to find out, like ask the radio station to get opinions or set up a website were people can vote. Is it possible to have both?

[cybercoma]

It turns out Chong has been working for free since there is zero funding for the Scarborough subway project.

http://www.thestar.com/iphone/news/article/1143438--ttc-subway-study-ran-out-of-money-gordon-chong-and-consultants-still-owed-more-than-100-000

[bjre]

Actually, let's make a deal: Scarberians can discount and ignore the views of those who don't live there and those of us blessed enough to not live in Scarborough don't pay for their subways. Fair?

http://www.ttc.ca/Riding_the_TTC/Moving_Towards_a_Better_Tomorrow/index.jsp

One TTC subway train replaces 910 cars in rush hour

Gasoline costs rose almost 20% for each of the last three years

CAA estimates the cost of owning and operating a car in Toronto is $8,900 - $12,000 per year

Parking costs an average of $4,000 per year in Toronto

You can see, Subway is the most efficient way to decrease the traffic amount in downtown.

Even you don't live in Scarborough, and Scarborough, if the subway built, you could enjoy less cars in the downtown street, parking lot, better air to your health and much more.

(The economy benefit for you has not taken into account yet.)

[Black Dog]

You can see, Subway is the most efficient way to decrease the traffic amount in downtown.

Even you don't live in Scarborough, and Scarborough, if the subway built, you could enjoy less cars in the downtown street, parking lot, better air to your health and much more.(The economy benefit for you has not taken into account yet.)

Well, my line was tongue in cheek, there's a flaw in your plan regardless. A subway in Scarberia would not displace as many cars because it would not have anything near the ridership of the downtown network. That's one of the chief reasons why LRTs would make more sense.

[TheNewTeddy]

A subway does not replace any cars. That involves people getting out of their damn cars, and that does not happen.

A subway, which carries apx 1,000 people, and runs every 2 minutes in rush hour, replaces 20 buses (every 2 minutes)

How many buses run along Sheppard? Eglinton? Hint: much less than 20 every 2 minutes.

[TheNewTeddy]

http://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/Service_Summary_2012_03_25.pdf

Here is the TTC's own service document.

20 buses every 2 minutes is 10 every 1 minute, or, 1 every 6 seconds. Feel free to find any bus routes that run every 6 seconds

...

in fact, feel free to find any single bus route in the world that runs more often than Finch East.

Hell, lets be nice.

Sheppard runs 4 cars rather than 6 cars like on Bloor or Yonge. That means less than 1,000 people per train, and closer to 666. Not an evil number, but I'm going to be super-nice, and round DOWN to 600.

Beyond that, outside of rush, the trains (as you can see from the document) run every 5 minutes. And, while buses are "designed" to run with 50 people per bus in rush, they can in fact fit 80 people before nobody more can "fit". Again, lets be nice here. That's 7.5 buses every 5 minutes, or, 1 bus every 40 seconds.

Finch East is the most frequent bus (in rush) in Toronto at 2 minutes and 20 seconds, or, 140 seconds. That's apx 2 buses every 5 minutes. Even presuming 80 people per bus, that's 160 per train.

Toronto's subway trains have

http://www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/rail-vehicles/metros/toronto--canada?docID=0901260d8000f949#

68 seats per car. This means that under the best circumstances, you can fill 59% of the seats.

Now of course more people will ride a subway than a bus, but I'm trying to outline the problem of going straight from bus to subway. The gap is so large, that it is very hard to fill in.

[CPCFTW]

http://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/Service_Summary_2012_03_25.pdf

Here is the TTC's own service document.

20 buses every 2 minutes is 10 every 1 minute, or, 1 every 6 seconds. Feel free to find any bus routes that run every 6 seconds

...

in fact, feel free to find any single bus route in the world that runs more often than Finch East.

Hell, lets be nice.

Sheppard runs 4 cars rather than 6 cars like on Bloor or Yonge. That means less than 1,000 people per train, and closer to 666. Not an evil number, but I'm going to be super-nice, and round DOWN to 600.

Beyond that, outside of rush, the trains (as you can see from the document) run every 5 minutes. And, while buses are "designed" to run with 50 people per bus in rush, they can in fact fit 80 people before nobody more can "fit". Again, lets be nice here. That's 7.5 buses every 5 minutes, or, 1 bus every 40 seconds.

Finch East is the most frequent bus (in rush) in Toronto at 2 minutes and 20 seconds, or, 140 seconds. That's apx 2 buses every 5 minutes. Even presuming 80 people per bus, that's 160 per train.

Toronto's subway trains have

http://www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/rail-vehicles/metros/toronto--canada?docID=0901260d8000f949#

68 seats per car. This means that under the best circumstances, you can fill 59% of the seats.

Now of course more people will ride a subway than a bus, but I'm trying to outline the problem of going straight from bus to subway. The gap is so large, that it is very hard to fill in.

Who cares what we currently run? People also currently take 45mins to 1.5hrs to get from Scarborough to downtown in rush hour using any means possible. This is a horribly inefficient society in terms of transit.

Run fast subways underground and people will start taking subways and clear up the roads. People aren't going to take an hour to drive to work if they can get there via subway in 30 minutes. LRT will not change people's behaviour. It's too slow. Give them their subways and commute times will come down for both public transit and cars.

Worst commute times in the world and you people want to skimp on public transit (which is one of the few things the left has ever gotten right)...

Whining about our dependence on oil, but want to skimp on public transit instead of making it an attractive alternative to driving...

This is one instance when conservative spending priorities actually aligns with lefty ideals, and you lefties all want to play a political game with it instead.

Talk about partisanship.

I guess parents can afford to spend 45-90mins commuting since we have kindergarten for 4 year olds now. Who needs parents when you have the state to raise you?

Edited March 16, 2012 by CPCFTW

[Black Dog]

Run fast subways underground and people will start taking subways and clear up the roads. People aren't going to take an hour to drive to work if they can get there via subway in 30 minutes. LRT will not change people's behaviour. It's too slow. Give them their subways and commute times will come down for both public transit and cars.

Worst commute times in the world and you people want to skimp on public transit (which is one of the few things the left has ever gotten right)...

Whining about our dependence on oil, but want to skimp on public transit instead of making it an attractive alternative to driving...

This is one instance when conservative spending priorities actually aligns with lefty ideals, and you lefties all want to play a political game with it instead.

Talk about partisanship.

I guess parents can afford to spend 45-90mins commuting since we have kindergarten for 4 year olds now. Who needs parents when you have the state to raise you?

I see that, like Ford, since you can't win on the facts, you have to amp up the emotional rhetoric.

I can't begin to fathom a mindset that says a plan for delivering more transit to more people is somehow anti-transit because it doesn't conform to some clown's wet dream of subways where we don't need them and where we can't afford to build them.

At the end of the day, unless your boy in City Hall can come forward with a funding plan for his subterranean fantasy, it's all just a fart in a wind.

[mentalfloss]

At the end of the day, unless your boy in City Hall can come forward with a funding plan for his subterranean fantasy, it's all just a fart in a wind.

Even if it does get its own funding, the council will not vote in favour of Ford's plan.

[Black Dog]

Even if it does get its own funding, the council will not vote in favour of Ford's plan.

Well, a concrete plan for funding these subways would enable us to have a conversation about their actual merits (not that the argument on that score is all that convincing).

[Smallc]

Run fast subways underground and people will start taking subways and clear up the roads. People aren't going to take an hour to drive to work if they can get there via subway in 30 minutes. LRT will not change people's behaviour. It's too slow.

That's why Calgary and Edmonton have such ow ridership for cities their size...oh, wait.

[TheNewTeddy]

LRT is too slow? What world are you living in?

Is it the same crazy world where the TTC lives, where Spadina and St. Clair are somehow LRT when, clearly, neither is?

[Black Dog]

Today's D-day for the LRT/subway debate.

It seems there's some signs of sanity from the pro-subway crowd:

Ford allies to propose tax hike for subways

With or without Mayor Rob Ford, his allies on council are putting the finishing touches on a plan to pay for the Sheppard subway extension, possibly with a tax or a parking levy, and dangling the prospect of more transit expansion to secure their fellow councillors’ support.

Budget Chief Mike Del Grande said the proposal, to be tabled at a city council meeting on Wednesday, will not just be to build an underground line in Scarborough, but create a “legacy fund” for other projects such as a downtown relief line, or a subway along Finch.

Without any details, this seems like a common sense solution. I can't see any sensible person being oppos...oh.

“You’re either with us or against us, there is no in-between,” Mr. Ford told a pro-subway meeting in Scarborough Tuesday night. “Compromise to them means increase taxes, have user fees, have all this other stuff,” he said. “We can’t look at anything until we start building one station at a time. We have the billion, let’s get moving on it.”

Edited March 21, 2012 by Black Dog

[mentalfloss]

Without any details, this seems like a common sense solution. I can't see any sensible person being oppos...oh.

Makes complete sense.

Why would Ford support it?