The TTC thread

[CANADIEN]

I've more and more come around to supporting increased usage of GO. I think if we ran GO much more often, we could take a lot of the pressure off the subway. I support a Don Mills LRT to help redirect people coming in from the east.

We need to fully integrate GO into the transit net work. Paris RER seems like a good model for some of the lines. Certainly, we need more frequency, and to make it easier to connect between GO and subway and LRT lines.

As for a Don Mills LRT, it would meet the needs of people in that corridor, so it is a good idea. Apart from people living close to it though, I am not convinced it would significantly relieve the pressure on the Yonge Line. For example, if I were living at Eglinton/Victoria, I would likely take the LRT to the Yonge line rather than change at Don Mills, then at Pape, then at Bloor/Yonge.

[Black Dog]

Bwahhaha!

It will be almost impossible for Mayor Rob Ford to toss Stintz out of the top TTC job thanks to changes to city policies that Ford and his inner circle supported back in April.

Stintz — Ford’s handpicked TTC chairman — has been under fire from Ford loyalists all week after leading the rebellion at city council that stopped the mayor’s transit plans.

...

But getting rid of Stintz isn’t as easy as a TTC commission vote, thanks to changes made by Ford and 36 councillors last year to the way the city manages its agencies and corporations.

Now, under the current rules, only city council has the power to dump Stintz.

[mentalfloss]

Bwahhaha!

That's a shame.

I was looking forward to more ragegasm.

[Black Dog]

That's a shame.

I was looking forward to more ragegasm.

The ragegasm is spent. Now it's just impotent rage. The Scum is demanding a plebiscite on the issue (always looking out for the taxpayers dollar, eh wot?) The Ford is taking to the streets to consult the 600,000 transit experts of Scarberia who can't tell the difference between this and this. It's a goddamned circus on the right.

[TheNewTeddy]

We need to fully integrate GO into the transit net work. Paris RER seems like a good model for some of the lines. Certainly, we need more frequency, and to make it easier to connect between GO and subway and LRT lines.

As for a Don Mills LRT, it would meet the needs of people in that corridor, so it is a good idea. Apart from people living close to it though, I am not convinced it would significantly relieve the pressure on the Yonge Line. For example, if I were living at Eglinton/Victoria, I would likely take the LRT to the Yonge line rather than change at Don Mills, then at Pape, then at Bloor/Yonge.

I've been following transit very close for a very long time, and in fact, I proposed the "Eglinton Line", with aboveground portions at Weston and Don Mills, just 3 weeks before the TTC "happened" to propose the exact same thing. (this was to that party I was in for a while that got some media attention at the time and has since flopped)

There are a lot of things we need to do to improve transit in Toronto.

Firstly, we need to get people off the Yonge line. The best way is to divert them down Don Mills. Ideally with LRT/BRT north of Eglinton, funnelling into a subway station at DM and Eg, that'd head from there, down lakeshore way, then curving into the core - something like a Downtown releif line that goes to Thorncliffe. BRT could work on Don Mills. The street is wide as is - all the properties streetside are either large apartment buildings or businessplaces, IE, you are not stealing a front lawn from a house to widen the street - and the stops can easily be far apart.

As for more tunnels in the core, I actually support a GO tunnel. Imagine the Milton line running on the tracks north of Dupont, then curving underground and running under Bay to Queen. You could shunt Georgetown trains this way as well, and this would relieve a huge amount of pressure from Union. This would enable you to run trains far more often.

Australia has no subways - but they'll tell you they do. Why? The run their commuter rail like a subway system; every 15 minutes all day in some cases. Imagine if we took GO from a rush-hour-only system to something closer to (but not matching) the Australian way.

The Yonge line is the huge problem. There are no easy answers. South of Eglinton and North of Sheppard, it's fairly simple to tunnel near Yonge, but in between, you get problems. If, however, you went express between the two, you could get away with a parallel line. You might not be able to run it under Bay if the GO uses that, but you could go down Jarvis, which is pretty darn close to Yonge.

I actually think you could more efficiently move riders if you moved more GO buses into the city. The Yonge subway is not comfortable, and I think you could get a fair bit of riders willing to pay a premium to head down Yonge St on a bus (even if it takes 3 times as long) just for the comfort and prestige that comes with the GO Bus VS the dirty ole subway.

[The_Squid]

I think subways are a better long-term solution than above ground transport. Look at every major city in Europe... Paris, Madrid, Lisbon, etc, etc, all have excellent and efficient subway systems.

[Smallc]

They also have above ground transportation.

Toronto's subway system really isn't bad though, it's just that the overall rail network is too small. With the new rocket trains, some of the YUS congestion should be relieved.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Smallc

[TheNewTeddy]

You need people to take the subway or it's pointless, and many of the proposed LRT routes do not have the ridership needed for a subway.

Also, the trains in Madrid are the size of LRT vehicles. Madrid's longest subway platforms are 115M long, Toronto's trains are 138M long, meaning the subway platform is closer to 145M. The trains are actually as close to as wide as ours our, but the length is a major factor. Rather than a standard 6 car train, it's like they are running less than 5 car trains. Stations are the big cost gobblers in building new lines, so having stations that are 20% shorter means, roughly, 20% less cost to build. Beyond that, the entire "province"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_Community_of_Madrid

funds transit for Madrid, would our province funds jack ****. They give us leftovers of the gas tax, and don't even tell the city where to put it (fortunately, they've decided to put it into transit, but they do not have to) Compare this to such "extremist right-wing" places as Alberta, Texas, or Utah, where each of those provincial level governments puts money into the operation of public transit.

[TheNewTeddy]

Lisbon's trains are narrower http://www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/rail-vehicles/metros/lisbon--portugal?docID=0901260d8000d175# (saving on tunnel costs by quite a bit) and much much shorter, at 50M.

Paris has metro population of 22 million, where as Toronto has one of 5.

[Keepitsimple]

I think subways are a better long-term solution than above ground transport. Look at every major city in Europe... Paris, Madrid, Lisbon, etc, etc, all have excellent and efficient subway systems.

That's the simple principle - have a backbone of subways to handle distribution and then run buses to more precise points - electric buses of course! Our backbone is simply not big enough.....a nice double entendre!

[CANADIEN]

I think subways are a better long-term solution than above ground transport. Look at every major city in Europe... Paris, Madrid, Lisbon, etc, etc, all have excellent and efficient subway systems.

Paris, Madrid, Berlin, London also have LRTs.

[CANADIEN]

That's the simple principle - have a backbone of subways to handle distribution and then run buses to more precise points - electric buses of course! Our backbone is simply not big enough.....a nice double entendre!

Backbone with feeder lines. Some of those though should be LRTs. Buses are too small to meet the needs of lines on Eglinton and Don Mills.

[Keepitsimple]

Backbone with feeder lines. Some of those though should be LRTs. Buses are too small to meet the needs of lines on Eglinton and Don Mills.

Agreed - LRT's too. It's like the human body......big arteries going to the major limbs and a variety of other vessels get you closer to home. It's really short sighted not to have the major tunnels dug - should have been done 20 years ago.....they'll last for another 50 or 60 years if not more.

[CANADIEN]

Firstly, we need to get people off the Yonge line. The best way is to divert them down Don Mills. Ideally with LRT/BRT north of Eglinton, funnelling into a subway station at DM and Eg, that'd head from there, down lakeshore way, then curving into the core - something like a Downtown releif line that goes to Thorncliffe. BRT could work on Don Mills. The street is wide as is - all the properties streetside are either large apartment buildings or businessplaces, IE, you are not stealing a front lawn from a house to widen the street - and the stops can easily be far apart.

I believe that a Don Mills LRT could go surface all the down Don Mills, then Overlea and over the Valley to Pape (one problem with tunnelling before there is that you would nned to dig pretty deep to get under the Valley). Once south of the valley, tunelling under pape is the only sensible solution. Stops on the route: (going south from Finch):

- Oriole Park

- Don Mills Subway

- York Mills

- Seneca College

- Lawrence

- Eglinton

- Ontario Science Centre

- Don Mills/Overlea

- East York Town Centre

- O`Connor (or Cosburn)

- Pape Station

- Gerrard Square

I would put the final stop at Gerrard Square to have it connect to a subway line (I call it the Downtown South Line, sounds better than Downtown Relief Line) that could both catchthe traffic coming from the Don Mills LRT and divert traffick from the Bloor Danforth Line and the Yonge-Bloor bottleneck.

The subway line would go from the Main Étreet subway station south to the rail corridor to near Queen and Broadview, then two possibilities: on Queen Street to Osgoode Station or to the Esplanade and Union Station. In both cases the final stop would be in the Bathrust-Front area (one of the scenarios in Metrolinx' Union 2031 plan calls for satellite train stations at Bathurst and Cherry Street).

Stations:

- Main Street

- Gerard Square

(Queen Street Route)

- Braodview South

- Parliament

- Jarvis

- Queen Street

- City Hall (would connect to the Express Yonge-Bay line)

- Osgoode

- Spadina South (at Queen Street)

- Bathurst South

(Esplanade Route)

- De Grassi

- Cherry Street-Distillery

- St. Lawrence

- Union South

- Rogers Centre

- Bathhurst South

Future expension could go to a station at Exhibition Place and from there to Dundas West.

The best route in terms of ridership would be Queen Street, although I think the Esplanade route would be cheaper to build. If we go on Queen, and a satellite GO station were to be built at Cherry street, tehn we would need a connection between it and the rest of the fast transist network; I'd go for LRT then, buried.

Edited February 11, 2012 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

As for more tunnels in the core, I actually support a GO tunnel. Imagine the Milton line running on the tracks north of Dupont, then curving underground and running under Bay to Queen. You could shunt Georgetown trains this way as well, and this would relieve a huge amount of pressure from Union. This would enable you to run trains far more often.

I think that the proposal included in Metrolinx Union 2031 report is more practical. A sattelite station at Bathurst (could be the terminal for the the Georgetown, Milton and Bradford trains) and Cherry Street (possible terminal for the Richmond Hill and Stoufville lines). In both cases, a link to rapid transist would be needed.

[TheNewTeddy]

The most important transit city lines for properly moving people were Eglinton, Don Mills and Scarborough, as well as to a lesser extent Jane. The ones they decided to build first were Eglinton, Sheppard, and Finch West. Finch West is not needed, once the subway goes to Finch and Keele, much of the ridership will get off there. A Jane line would relieve the congestion further. Finch east however is another story, and LRT is needed there, badly. Lastly, the core needs an underground LRT or Subway line, ideally something under Adelaide and Richmond, not just one but two lines, each following the one-way path of the street, with one going to the Ex, and another though the Parkdale area. On the other side both lines could take slightly different paths to head up to Eglinton and Don Mills, and one of them could be extended further north.

[CANADIEN]

The most important transit city lines for properly moving people were Eglinton, Don Mills and Scarborough, as well as to a lesser extent Jane. The ones they decided to build first were Eglinton, Sheppard, and Finch West. Finch West is not needed, once the subway goes to Finch and Keele, much of the ridership will get off there. A Jane line would relieve the congestion further. Finch east however is another story, and LRT is needed there, badly. Lastly, the core needs an underground LRT or Subway line, ideally something under Adelaide and Richmond, not just one but two lines, each following the one-way path of the street, with one going to the Ex, and another though the Parkdale area. On the other side both lines could take slightly different paths to head up to Eglinton and Don Mills, and one of them could be extended further north.

Downtown: Queen street is a better choice than Adelaide or Richmond because it would link to the existing subway at Queen and Osgoode stations (unless you build underground foot connection between the two (three) lines.

The first part of that line to be built, and that should be part of the next round of transit building, should be the one coming from the east (my Downtown South line). The tunnels and the the stations could be built in such a way that it would possible (either right then or later) to have two lines running in parralel (should be standard on all future lines). AS I mentioned, the line would end up (in the first stage) at a Bathurst south station, which would be at the site of the new Go satellite station envisioned in the Union 2031 report.

From there, I see more mid-term potential in going from Bathurst south to Dundas West with stops at:

- Exhibition Place (could be the terminal in the first extension)

- King West (at Dufferin)

- Peel Street (at Queen-Dufferin)

- College West (near Lansdowne)

- Dundas West

An alternate route could see the line going up Roncesvalles (wih stations at Jamieson, Roncesvalles/Queen and Howard park), but the hassle of building and having stations on Roncesvalles does not make it worthwile.

(con't)

Edited February 11, 2012 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

I do not see the need for a subway for quite a while on Queen Street west of the downtown core, as improved LRT service on Colege, Dundas, Queen and King should handle the traffic. Plus, I don't see that area as one of major population growth over the next few decades. The only way I can think of a subway there would be as a way of linking the lakeshore-South Etobicoke area to downtown. Even then, I see it as a third-generation thing. Line would go under Queen with the following stations;

- Jarvis Street,

- Queen Street

- City Hall

- Osgoode

- Spadina South

- a station at Bathurst/Queen

- Peel Street

- Jamieson

- Roncesvalles

Roncesvalles could be the terminal for the Queensway LRT, or we could continue the subway to stations at South Kingsway and Humber Loop, and later under Lakeshore Blvd. to Humber College.

(cont`d)

Edited February 11, 2012 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

Rapid transit in the Finch West corridor is crucial. The Finch West subway station and an LRT stop at Jane will get people go faster FROM Finch West to downtown, but will not relieve the overcrowing ON Finch West.

We we build the line to Keele, might as well continue to Don Mills. One problem though, both west eand east of Keele I just don't think Finch is wide enough for an LRT or BRT line. The hydro corridor is tantalizing close, but just outside of what would be considered a reasonable distance from Finch. Darn.

Jane LRT is a particular beast. First, I would suggest a BRT or a dedicated busl line, but LRT would work tooo... Problem in bothe cases is, the street is just too darn narrow south of Wilson, and tunnelling all the way from there to Bloor just doesn't make sense money-wise. So what to do? I still believe we should be tunneling from wilson to Black Creek Drive. Then... Black Crrek Drive (!) then the train corridor to either Dundas West or lansdowne station (!)

I know, I know, nobody lives there, but the Drive can accommodate LRTs or BRTs, unlike Jane. It would serve the need of people who just want to get south fast, and relieve enough pressure on Jane to make the bus ride bearable. It may still have to go underground south of Dupont, but that's sure better than all the way from Wilson. Stops on a Jane-Black Creek line, south of 401:

- Maple Leaf

-Lawrence West

- Thretaway

- Eglinton

- Rogers

- St. Clair

_Dupont

- dundas West (or Landsdowne; I mention Landsdowne because Bloor West could become very crowded with being the terminal of a new subway line, plus the site (through connection with the GO platform, GO trains and the Airport train) and two streetcars and two buses)

[TheNewTeddy]

An LRT subway could move about half as much as a "normal" TTC subway if done correctly.

Imagine a LRT line under King (heading out to 'toby), Adelaide, and Richmond (as explained above) Jarvis, and a line under Spadina (where there is a need for more capacity)

If done right you could move 50% of the people for 40% of the cost of a normal subway, meanwhile, Queen is still free for a regular "subway".

Another idea I've had is to bust up St. George.

No, not the person you silly you.

Take the University line and run it from Museum station, up Avenue road. You could head up York Mills way, then shuffle on over to Sheppard, for a "parallel" line that would not interfere with my Duplex-Jarvis line.

The Spadina line would then use Spadina. In order to make this work, it would need to curve in to Union, and Union would need some truly serious reconstruction so that it connects with this new line in the east while the old University line should ideally end at St. Andrew, or, continue to a new end stop in the Front St. area.

The problem with this proposal is my research on it is limited and I don't know if there are things preventing this from "working" or not.

[TheNewTeddy]

You know what, I'll make some maps

[TheNewTeddy]

Sorry for the triple post!!! Normally I'd delete the above message and replace it with this

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?authuser=0&ie=UTF8&hl=en&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=214668381355121949879.0004b8b019722dce3f29d

These are my proposals. They are a little different than explained due to the fact that there was a little more room to put in new lines.

[CANADIEN]

An LRT subway could move about half as much as a "normal" TTC subway if done correctly.

Imagine a LRT line under King (heading out to 'toby), Adelaide, and Richmond (as explained above) Jarvis, and a line under Spadina (where there is a need for more capacity)

If done right you could move 50% of the people for 40% of the cost of a normal subway, meanwhile, Queen is still free for a regular "subway".

I still think that what the area slong Queen/King from downtown West towards Etobicoke needs is a subway. First, it should have been done decades ago, the express downtown line coming from the east needs to be a subway.

That being said, a LRT going west from Yonge on Richmond/Adelaide would be a good idea in the medium to long term. I say Richmond/Adelaide because the first part (to Spadina) could be at street level, one direction on each street. Would inconvnience drivers, but I would still do it. Make it turn south at Spadina, turn west at FRont to the proposed Bathurst Go satellite station. Then, on to Exhibition. This would replace my proposal for a subway line going to Exhibition then to Dundas West.

Apart from not having a subway station at Exhibition (and some possible complicaion with a terminal at Exhibition), I think it would serve the needs better than a subway.

AS for the Spadina LRT, I believe that the solution lies not in a tunnel, but in applying a few simple (or perhaps not so simple) solutions.

- having the streetlights turn green automatically as the streetcar/LRT approaches. Moving the stops to BEFORE the intersection (right now, they stop at the intersection, then cross it and stops again to pick up passengers)

- of course, putting the new vehicles on the line

- I also suggest a bus - not a busway, just a bus (even smaller buses), in day time and week-end evenings, from the Bloor line down St. George, then Beverley, Dundas, Spadina, Queen and back up Beverley.

These, combinet with a subway stop at Queen/Spadina, would help solve the main problems on Spadina, which IMO have more to do with design than capacity.

[CANADIEN]

Sorry for the triple post!!! Normally I'd delete the above message and replace it with this

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?authuser=0&ie=UTF8&hl=en&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=214668381355121949879.0004b8b019722dce3f29d

These are my proposals. They are a little different than explained due to the fact that there was a little more room to put in new lines.

My likes:

- Yonge corridor, although I am thinking express subway there, because of the need to remove pressure on the existing line, and one line only; you would need a connection to the Bloor Danforth line (a foot tunnel from Church to the Yonge-Bloor Station, or from Jarvis to Sherbourne; or a new subway station)

- extensions to the Sheppard and Bloor-Danforth subway lines

- extension to the Eglinton LRT

- proposed LRTs in Scarborough (don't know enough about the width of the street there)

- Martin Grove corridor LRT (I would consider running it on the 27 from Woodbine Track north though (not that I am a gambler)

What I would change:

- Adelaide-Richmond LRT: I see it as a medium-long term project, but most importantly, I would change the route once it gets at Spadina, so it can connect to a sattelite Go station at Bathurst-Front. I still think that aboveground on Richmond Adelaide would work, but I am not wedded to it. If not, why not just have it run under one of the two streets.

- Don Mills LRT: start it at Finch or Steeles, run it above ground to the Leaside bridge, from there, either underground to Gerrard (my favorite option), or abovegroud down the Don Valley (it's not that it would disturb much traffic ;-)then to the proposed Cherry Street Go station and underground under the Esplanade to Union Station, the Skydome and the proposed Bathurst Street Go station. I would not go with both routes

What is missing:

- Finch LRT. It is needed in the Finch West area. Just a long line down the Martin Grove corridor will not be enough, and besides, now that the council is committed to it, let's just do it, otherwise we will get the usual back and forth and discussion and debates and dramas and nothing will ever happen. To Keele, perhaps even Bathurst. East of there, I would rely on north-south lines, so the buses on Finch itself would be less crowded

- Bayview LRT (or busway/dedicated line), from Finch to the Sheppard line

- Queen Street-East End subway line: what we need to redirect traffic from the Bloor-Danforth line is a subway; LRT is no longer enough, and it should have been done years ago. should go to Roncesvalles, with future possible extension into Etobicoke

What I would scrap:

- burying the King LRT and the west bound extension of the Richmond-Delaide line past Spadina: with a Queen Street subway, the existing King line above ground should serve the needs for a long time

- most definitely the GO tunnel under Bay Street. For more, it just doesn't make any sense.

Never tried GoogleMap, but I will see if I can put my thoughts on it.

Edited February 11, 2012 by CANADIEN

[TheNewTeddy]

People would never support a right-of-way with a street with only one lane. You'd need two lanes each way, and King does not have the space for that.