CANADIEN Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) People would never support a right-of-way with a street with only one lane. You'd need two lanes each way, and King does not have the space for that. With a subway on Queen, you don't need a right of way on King. Edited February 11, 2012 by CANADIEN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) Sorry for the triple post!!! Normally I'd delete the above message and replace it with this http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?authuser=0&ie=UTF8&hl=en&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=214668381355121949879.0004b8b019722dce3f29d These are my proposals. They are a little different than explained due to the fact that there was a little more room to put in new lines. I gave up on GoogleMaps. Here's my thoughts, with additions, and modifications, adopting/adapting some on your idea. I have no expectaion that it is financial sound, and frankly it's just musing. Mix of subway and LRT at first, mostly LRT later as the technology improves further. Broken down by period of five years. some of the projects will be incremental. Note that I have Sheppard as a subway through and through. If it's subway half of the way, make it subway through. After an early extension to victoria though, there will be some wait. Here we go: PHASE ONE (under construction or started in 2012-2013) Yonge-Spadina-University subway (extension): Downsview to Highway 7 Finch West LRT: above ground, Humber College to Finch, then to Keele Sheppard subway (extension): to Victoria Park Eglinton Scarborough LRT: ON Eglinton, underground from Black Creek to Leslie, above ground to Kennedy Station, above ground (old Scarborough RT line) to McCowan PHASE TWO (started between 2015 and 2020) Yonge Express subway: From Sheppard station, parallel to Yonge down to Summerhill then across to Bay and down to Queen Street, stops at Eglinton, St. Clair, Bay Street Station, Wellesley, Dundas (if the bus terminal is still there) Downsview LRT: above ground from Finch to Overlea then to Pape, through Leaside Bridge; underground to Queen East-end subway at Gerrard Eglinton-Scarborough LRT (extension): westbound above ground to the Airport Queen-East end subway (phase one): From Dufferin/Queen to Broadview, then north the GO corridor to Main station (note: as a result, Queen streetcar would end at Dufferin, King street car would continue east from Broadview on current Queen streetcar line) Edited February 12, 2012 by CANADIEN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) (cont'd) PHASE THREE (started between 2020 and 2025) Jane-Black Creek LRT: Above ground from Steeles West subway station to Wilson, then down Black Creek Drive, either above ground in the train corridor or underground under Weston to St. Clair, then above or underground to Dundas West subway station Yonge-University subway (extension): to Highway 7 Eglinton-Scarborough LRT (extension): eastbound above ground to Markham/Ellesmere, then to UToronto Scarborough Sheppard subway (extension): westbound to Downsview, eastbound to Scarborough Town Centre GO Train: Satellite station near Bathurst and Front Exhibition-Esplanade LRT: Above ground from Exhibition Place to near Fort York, then underground to Go Train Bathurst satellite station, Skydome, Union Station (south end), under Esplanade to Cherry Street-Distillery and up to Queen-East End Subway at Broadview PHASE FOUR (started between 2025 AND 2030) Yonge-University subway (extension): Highway 7, closing the loop East Scarborough LRT: From the Zoo, above ground, down Meadowvale and Kingston road to Kingston Rd.-Eglinton Eglinton-Scarborough LRT (extension): eastbound to Meadowvale Bloor-Danforth subway (extension): westbound to Queensway-Dixie, eastbound to Kingston Rd.-Eglinton Queen-East end subway (extension): westbound to Humber Loop Adelaide LRT: Above ground from Billy Bishop Airport to GO Train Bathurst then underground to Spadina/Adelaide and east to Yonge subway line GO Train: Satellite station at Cherry Street Edited February 12, 2012 by CANADIEN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) (cont`d) PHASE FIVE (started between 2030 AND 2035) Finch-WestTown LRT (extension and renaming of the Finch West LRT): Above ground from Humber College down on Highway 27 to Dixon road, across then across and down off-street to Eglinton/Martin Grove Victoria Park LRT: Above ground from Sheppard line to Bloor-Danforth line TransCity East Rapid Transit: train or above ground LRT Pickering along the 401 to Morningside, then parallel to Morningside and in the Finch Hydro corridor to Finch subway station, stations at connections to main Pickering transit lines, Meadowvale-Kingston LRT, Stouffville GO train Bloor-Danforth subway (extension): westbound to Hurontario PHASE SIX (started between 2035 AND 2040) McCOWAN LRT: above ground from Steeles to Scarborough Town Centre Finch/WestTown LRT (extension): above ground, west on Eglinton, then East Mall, Queensway to Sherway Gardens TransCity North Rapid Transit (first phase): Train or LRT, above ground, from Hurontario-Highway 407 to the Airport to Highway 427 to train corridor south of Highway 407 to Bloor-University line (western line), stops at connections to major Peel and York Regions transit lines and highways, and the Airport PHASE SEVEN (started between 2040 AND 2045) Bathurst LRT: Underground, Eglinton to Bloor Mount-Pleasant-Jarvis LRT: Underground, Eglinton to Queen Malvern LRT: above ground, Finch and McCowan to Neilson down to Military Road TransCity North Rapid Transit (extension): Train or LRT, above ground, eastbound to the Stouffville GO line, south to the TransCity East line, stops at connections to the subway, GO Train, main York Region Transit lines and highways Transcity East Rapit Transit (extension): to Whitby and Oshawa Exhibition-ESplanade LRT (extension): Either above ground (through the rail corridor) or underground to Dundas West or Landsdowne subway station Edited February 12, 2012 by CANADIEN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewTeddy Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Some of these are problematic. Ex-Es LRT: not certain this is needed TC North: not enough demand north of Major Mac NC North RT: would work better as BRT, as you could integrate local routes into the network BD to Hurontariao: would require planning changes to develop proper density; but could work in these instances. GO Satellite: these stations (Metrolinx proposed one at Bathurst as well) are too far out to work properly. "Downsview LRT" I presume you mean Don Mills, if so, only the name is problematic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) Some of these are problematic. Ex-Es LRT: not certain this is needed GO Satellite: these stations (Metrolinx proposed one at Bathurst as well) are too far out to work properly. "Downsview LRT" I presume you mean Don Mills, if so, only the name is problematic The Metrolinx report talks about a terminal station at Bathurst and Front for some of the GO lines, with the Lakeshore trains being diverted through a tunnel at a station at the foot of York. I am afraid I mistook the Cherry satellite station for a eeast end terminal. So, it's gone, and then there is no need for a LRT from Bathurst to Cherry. There is still the issue of linking the Bathurst terminal and the Ex to downtown. The Metrolinx report calls for a subway line starting from Woodbine (instead of Main in my proposal), then go down to Kingston road instead of the train corridor (I don't have a major issue with that route), then on Queen to downtown. From there, it would turn south to the Bathrust terminal and the Ex. That subway could at a later stage be continued to Dundas West (preferably under the rail corridor, I think a Roncesvalles route would be more trouble that it's worth). Construction from Woodbine to Lakeshore could take place in phase 2 (2015-2020), with the extension to Dundas West occuring in phase 4 (2025-2030) or in phase 5 (2030-2035). With a subway going down to Bathrust and the Ex, there is no longer a need for my Adelaide LRT. Billy Bishop airport could be linked to the Queen-Ex and Union subways at the Bathurst and Union station, by bus (or minibus), and this could be done now (Porter already operates a free shuttle between BBAirport and Front Street, but the growing usage of the Airport means it would be enough before long). If needed, it could be replaced later by a Billy Bishop LRT, aboveground to Front then undergroud to Union (and St. Lawrence Market and the Distillery?). What happens with then my idea of a Queen Street subway going all the way to south Etobicoke then? Two possibilities: undergound LRT (or LRV, if rails are an issue west of Roncesvalles) starting at Adelaide and Yonge, then reaching Queen west of Bathurst, then using the current route from there. Would be way less expensive than a subway, but my concern is that Lakeshore could not accommodate a separate LRT/LRV. Or we go back to subway, branching out from the Queen Exhibition line. In the first case, I would not change the timeline; with a subway, I would delay the first phase five years (building this at the same time as the two relief lines would be overly prohibitive). And I was talking about Don Mills. My mistake. Edited February 13, 2012 by CANADIEN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 TC North: not enough demand north of Major Mac NC North RT: would work better as BRT, as you could integrate local routes into the network BD to Hurontariao: would require planning changes to develop proper density; but could work in these instances. My idea behind the East and north TransCity lines is to ease transit between the east and west end of the GTA. Transitting from the Durham Region to the Airport and Peel, or the York Region, is near impossible unless you have hours (many of them) on your hand. Frequency would be 15-20 minutes. BRT lines are a good idea; could even then consider another route, that would use busways at the 401. I believe that eventually the subway should reach well into Mississauga. Failing that, extending the subway west from Kipling (to Dixie?) with connection to Misssissauga transit would do the trick. And none of my plans include going as far north as Major Mac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) More changes (and they are the last), but they are major: - have the Queen-Ex subway run up Pape then to Don Mills and Eglinton; up from there, adedicated bus line should be enough for a long time to come - no extension of the Yonge line into York Region; GO Trains should be the way to bring people from there to dontown Toronto,GO Trains should be faster, though (electrified?) and with more frequency, along with York Regions bus lines or LRT to the two existing subway lines - extend the Bloor-Danforth line to Dixie only, to connect to Mississauga Transit - scrap the Yonge Express line: construction of the new subway north to Eglinton-Don Mills will divert traffic from Yonge, as well as not expending the Yonge line north - instead of a Yonge express subway, build at a later time (I am thinking starting in 2030-2035) a Avenue-Road Bay LRT above ground from Eglinton down to the Dupont railway corridor, then underground to Bay street south to Queen or King); in the meantime, dedicated bus lane on Avenue Rd. - relocate the Bathurst LRT to Dufferin, still underground, move ahead it by about five years - replace the Mount Pleasent-Jarvis LRT with a Bayview LRT (if possible above ground) or dedeciated bus line By 2050, we would have added to the network: GO TRAINS: - increase frequency, faster train (electrified), increased connections with TTC network, new terminal station at Bathrust/Front (trains from the west) and possibly Yonge Street (Lakeshore) SUBWAYS: - Don Mills-Queen-Ex line: Don Mills/Eglinton to Pape and Queen, to about Queen/Spadina, then south to Bathurst/Front, the EX, then up to Dundas West or Landsdowne - Yonge University line: the extension being built to Highway 7 - Sheppard line; to Downsview and Scarborough Town Centre - Bloor-Danforth line: extension to Dixie and Kinsgton Road SUBWAY, LRT or LRV: - Lakeshore-Downtown line: current Queen streetcar route, underground from Roncesvalles east (all the way if subway), across to Adelaide west of Bathurst and ending at Yonge street TRANSCITY RAPID TRANSIT (bus, train or LRT): - either two lines (north and east) using train and hydro corridors, or one line along the 401, linking Mississauga/Brampton to Oshawa LRT: - Crosstown: the Eglinton line being currently built, and expended above ground east to the Airport and west to UTScarborough and Kingston Road - Finch-WestTown: The Finch LRT vote last week, then above ground south to sherway Gardens - Jane-Black Creek: above ground from Steeles West station on jane then Black Creek Drive, then above or underground in the railway corridor to Dundas West or Landsdowne station - Dufferin: underground from Eglinton to Queen - Avenue-Bay: above ground from Eglinton to the rail tracks, then underderground to Bay down to Queen or King - Victoria Park: above ground Sheppard to Victoria Park subway station - McCowan; above ground, Steeles to Crosstown line - Malvern: above ground, McCowan/Finch to Neilson down to Crosstown line - Meadowvale-Kingston: above ground from the Zoo to Kingston Road/Eglinton ABOVE GROUND LRT or bus lane: - Bayview-Jarvis: from Bayview subway station to train corridor, then Mount Pleasent to Jarvis and Queen Edited February 13, 2012 by CANADIEN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mentalfloss Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Unbelievable.. Fords plan 'Save Our Subways' campaign The fight for subways in Toronto will continue. Coun. Doug Ford says a tentatively named 'Save Our Subways' campaign will be aimed at voters, not fellow councillors inside City Hall. Last week council voted in favour of a series of above ground light rail lines. Mayor Rob Ford was pushing for the new transit to be buried. On Monday the city's executive committee approved a motion asking city manager Joe Pennachetti to recommend "a process to move forward with the development of a plan to complete the Sheppard subway.” Doug Ford says his brother respects council, but council isn't respecting the wishes of the voters. "People have been calling in — we've had more responses on this item than we've ever had on any issue, on a positive side. This isn't about left wing, right wing, centre, this is about building proper transit for the entire city. We live in a world class city, we need world class transit," said Ford. Dr. Gordon Chong presented his early plan to build a Sheppard subway extension to the mayor's executive committee on Monday. The plan isn't fully costed and would require hundreds of millions in new revenues. The committee also asked Pennachetti to report back by March 21, on the findings of the expert panel which is looking at options for the Sheppard subway. Fords plan 'Save Our Subways' campaign Edited February 14, 2012 by mentalfloss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 This is a political fight that will waste energy and further delay transit which will be critically needed by the time all of this is done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Unbelievable.. What is unbelievable is that the Fordites keep shooting "We need world-class transist" will ignoring what is being done in other world-class cities. I also find it interesting that, even with the money diverted by moving the Eglinton LRT where it belongs (above ground outside of the core), with land sales and risky projections regarding development fees and taxes resulting from possible growth on the Sheppard corridor, there is still not enough money for extending the Sheppard subway all the way to the Scarborough Town Centre. Either there will be private sector funding after all (yeah right), new sources of tax revenues will have to be raised (anathema to most Fordites), or the subway line will stop somewhere around Brimley and Sheppard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted February 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 I hope that, among Ford's political opponents, someone is smart enough to turn this issue into an indictment of Ford's fiscal conservative credentials. Quite simply, building underground transit (I refuse to perpetuate the subway myth) where it's not neccesary is a tremendous waste of taxpayer dollars. But let’s be realistic. There simply isn’t enough money on the table for the ambitious subway build-out that Mr. Ford is promising. I wish desperately that there were, but we have to live in the world as it is. The provincial government is strapped. So is Ottawa. Both are in the midst of wrenching cutbacks.Mr. Ford, of all people, should understand that. It is a delicious irony to see a mayor who insists that governments must live within their means telling deficit-ridden higher governments to cough up for his subway fantasies. To pretend that they are going to shower Toronto with billions for subways is to perpetrate a hoax on weary commuters. Yet that is just what the mayor is doing. -Link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 I hope that, among Ford's political opponents, someone is smart enough to turn this issue into an indictment of Ford's fiscal conservative credentials. Quite simply, building underground transit (I refuse to perpetuate the subway myth) where it's not neccesary is a tremendous waste of taxpayer dollars. -Link For me, it's not just a matter of money. Toronto cannot afford the cost of added gridlock and congestion on a barely coping transit system. We need to make investment, massive investment, in expending our transit system. Investing though is not wasting. We need both subways and LRTs, and the notion that it must be subways or else is a recipe for either putting more money than we need, or ending up with less than what we need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted February 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Unbelievable.. Fords plan 'Save Our Subways' campaign Can we launch a counter S.O.S. campaign: Stop Our Stupids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Can we launch a counter S.O.S. campaign: Stop Our Stupids. Or we could call it: BLT: Build Light Transit WIMP: Where Is the money for the Project RTS: Real Transit Solution SALT; Subway and Light transit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mentalfloss Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 OMGLRTBBQ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Could the TTC now be balking at implementing Presto? http://www.thestar.com/news/transportation/article/1131165--could-the-ttc-now-reject-the-presto-smart-card?bn=1 I can only imagine one reason why the TTC Union wouldn't want to use Presto is the fact that having guys in booths 24/7 collecting tokens would be unneeded. http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2010/01/22/to-sleepingttc(2).jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewTeddy Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Systems with Presto (like GO) still have collectors (like GO) and sell tickets (lik... well you get the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Could the TTC now be balking at implementing Presto? http://www.thestar.com/news/transportation/article/1131165--could-the-ttc-now-reject-the-presto-smart-card?bn=1 I can only imagine one reason why the TTC Union wouldn't want to use Presto is the fact that having guys in booths 24/7 collecting tokens would be unneeded. http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2010/01/22/to-sleepingttc(2).jpg What? People don't want to lose their jobs? Crazy that, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Systems with Presto (like GO) still have collectors (like GO) and sell tickets (lik... well you get the idea. In theory you wouldn't need as many because the goal is to have some re-loadable card. So once you have once card you can just keep putting money into it online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewTeddy Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 How many people would use it? Currently only a third of people use a metropass, and even if that number were to double under Presto, there are not many collector jobs you can cut. How many stations have 2 collectors on duty at the same entrance? A max of 15-20 during rush only. You could cut up to perhaps 10% of collector jobs, but you'd always need someone on duty for those who do not have Presto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted February 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 The subway report Rob Ford doesn't want you to read Mayor Rob Ford has been sitting on a TTC report that shows job growth projections are so far off target in North York and Scarborough that it’s not advisable to build a subway linking the two centres.Sources say Ford was given the analysis almost a year ago, after he demanded to know why the TTC wanted to build a light rail transit line along Sheppard, and not the subway it favoured 25 years ago. The 11-page report, obtained by the Toronto Star, concludes it is ill-advised to build subways when job numbers, office development and transit ridership are so low. But the mayor’s brother, Councillor Doug Ford, would have none of it when contacted by the Star.“Build a subway and people will come,” he said, refusing to consider TTC figures that show the opposite has happened along Sheppard. “The TTC? Please, give me a break. They are just justifying union jobs. LRTs destroy neighbourhoods,” he said. -Doug Ford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 So he wants to eliminate jobs, but it's the LRTs that destroy neighbourhoods? Huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted February 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 So he wants to eliminate jobs, but it's the LRTs that destroy neighbourhoods? Huh? I have no idea what jobs he's referring to. Would LRTs add more union jobs than subways? I think basically all their messaging is just starting to fuse together into a ball of mush. It'll be interesting to see what happens when Save Our Subways collides with Stop The Gravy Train. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Oh the irony. Stop the Gravy Train, yet it will be a giant Gravy Train that will be his undoing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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