Black Dog Posted March 6, 2015 Report Posted March 6, 2015 Last season there was 32 players within 2 goals of 30 or higher. Toronto had 2 of these players. If it's all about scoring goals, why then, with two 30 goals scorers was Toronto still a terrible team? And why now with a possible 2 30-goal scorers is Toronto still a terrible team? I'll tell you why, because neither of those 30 goal scorers plays a two-way game, Hell this is damn near the first thing they teach you at 5 years old in learn to play. It should be drilled into his head by now. So out of 19 players on a team, it's up to two guys to both provide the bulk of the offense and prevent the bulk of the goals against. K bud. Quote
PrimeNumber Posted March 6, 2015 Report Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) So out of 19 players on a team, it's up to two guys to both provide the bulk of the offense and prevent the bulk of the goals against. K bud. They don't have to provide the bulk of the defence, but any defence at all would sure help them out. Again cheating the defensive zone will lead to a lot of offensive chances but it opens you up just as much if not more the other way. Playing defence first and being able to play a simple transition game and then setting up in the offensive zone will always win you more games. Easier on your goaltender too. I'm not sure who allows Kessel and JVR to play this way or if they take it upon themselves but they need a defence first coach in Toronto soon, the rest will fall into place. Edited March 6, 2015 by PrimeNumber Quote “Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find your way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”― Bruce Lee
Mighty AC Posted March 6, 2015 Report Posted March 6, 2015 You take just about any elite player in the league and stick them on a junk team, they won't look as good. Hell Crosby scored 102 points in his rookie year on a team that won 22 games. Or look at John Tavares or Steven Stamkos as more recent examples. Nobody can do it alone and Kessel is very much alone on the Leafs. I don't understand your point here. A rookie Crosby scored 102 points, including 39 goals, on a bad team. How does that help your case for Phil? Crosby was also only a -1 on that team while Phil is currently -22. Phil is among the top 10 or so scorers in the league and is paid in kind. However, in comparison his strengths are fewer and weaknesses plentiful. Second, you make it sound like guys who can score like Kessel are a dime a dozen when it's quite the opposite. There's loads of guys who can pop 20 goals and be responsible in their own end. 30+ goal scorers are considerably harder to find. Ovechkin, Crosby, Stamkos, Pavelski, Perry, Seguin, Nash, Pacioretty, Toews, Kane, Parise, etc. are all guys that put the puck in the net as well or better than Phil. Yet every one of them plays a more complete game, thus making them far more valuable. Like I said before there are very few teams that Kessel would be an asset on, especially at his salary. Quote "Our lives begin to end the day we stay silent about the things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire
Black Dog Posted March 6, 2015 Report Posted March 6, 2015 I don't understand your point here. A rookie Crosby scored 102 points, including 39 goals, on a bad team. How does that help your case for Phil? Crosby was also only a -1 on that team while Phil is currently -22. Phil is among the top 10 or so scorers in the league and is paid in kind. However, in comparison his strengths are fewer and weaknesses plentiful. Because by the logic of the Kessel-bashers, the fact that Crosby scored all those points and the Pens still sucked shows Crosby wasn't doing enough. Ovechkin, Crosby, Stamkos, Pavelski, Perry, Seguin, Nash, Pacioretty, Toews, Kane, Parise, etc. are all guys that put the puck in the net as well or better than Phil. Yet every one of them plays a more complete game, thus making them far more valuable. Like I said before there are very few teams that Kessel would be an asset on, especially at his salary. That's simply not true. Only four players have scored more goals than Kessel over the last five years: Marleau, Perry, Stamkos and Ovechkin. None of them are particularly known for being great all-around players (I sure don't see any Selke winners or finalists on that list, do you?). So yeah, the idea that that player wouldn't be an asset on just about any team in the league is preposterous. Quote
Mighty AC Posted March 6, 2015 Report Posted March 6, 2015 That's simply not true. Only four players have scored more goals than Kessel over the last five years: Marleau, Perry, Stamkos and Ovechkin. None of them are particularly known for being great all-around players (I sure don't see any Selke winners or finalists on that list, do you?). So yeah, the idea that that player wouldn't be an asset on just about any team in the league is preposterous.Almost all of the guys I listed have outscored Kessel over the last 3 seasons and all of them play a more complete game. Even when comparing Phil to just Marleau, Perry, Stamkos and Ovechkin his game comes up woefully short. Ovy and Perry hit and play a physical role and all four back check and play very good defensive zone hockey. Nobody is saying Phil should play like a Pavel Datsyuk, just that by ignoring one end of the ice completely he is a huge defensive liability, which makes it tough to win games. Despite being on the top scoring line, Phil is a massive minus. Just compare Phil to some of his own teammates: Kessel: -23 Phaneuf: -8 Kadri: -4 Lupul: -1 Quote "Our lives begin to end the day we stay silent about the things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire
Black Dog Posted March 6, 2015 Report Posted March 6, 2015 Almost all of the guys I listed have outscored Kessel over the last 3 seasons and all of them play a more complete game Wrong again. Between 2011-14, only Stamkos scored more goals than Kessel. If you go back from this season, Kessel falls to third (tied with Pacioretty). Even when comparing Phil to just Marleau, Perry, Stamkos and Ovechkin his game comes up woefully short. Ovy and Perry hit and play a physical role and all four back check and play very good defensive zone hockey. Yeah if only Kessel would backcheck like Ovi... I think Kessel is very comparable to Stamkos, actually. Kessel just happens to be on a crappier team. Nobody is saying Phil should play like a Pavel Datsyuk, just that by ignoring one end of the ice completely he is a huge defensive liability, which makes it tough to win games. Like I said, I don't really care as long as the guy outscores enough to make up the difference. Despite being on the top scoring line, Phil is a massive minus. Just compare Phil to some of his own teammates: Kessel: -23 Phaneuf: -8 Kadri: -4 Lupul: -1 Do I need to remind you that Ovechkin was -35 last year when he scored 51 goals? Patrick Marleau is -14 this season. Or do I need to go over why +/- is terrible again? Quote
Mighty AC Posted March 6, 2015 Report Posted March 6, 2015 Wrong again. Between 2011-14, only Stamkos scored more goals than Kessel. If you go back from this season, Kessel falls to third (tied with Pacioretty). http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seasons/last-3-nhl-seasons-players-stats.html I think Kessel is very comparable to Stamkos, actually. Kessel just happens to be on a crappier team.Hilarious. Good thing you're not a GM. Like I said, I don't really care as long as the guy outscores enough to make up the difference. Do I need to remind you that Ovechkin was -35 last year when he scored 51 goals? Patrick Marleau is -14 this season. Or do I need to go over why +/- is terrible again? Ovy is +14 this year and both he and Marleau have been a plus for their career. It's obviously easy to be a minus on a bad team, but I'm comparing Phil to other Leaf players. Phil is a great finisher but adds no other positives to a team. He's not elite and nowhere near Stamkos. In fact, he and JVR are barely distinguishable on the score sheet over the last 3 years. Unfortunately, Phil gets paid twice as much. Quote "Our lives begin to end the day we stay silent about the things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire
PrimeNumber Posted March 6, 2015 Report Posted March 6, 2015 Ovy is +14 this year and both he and Marleau have been a plus for their career. It's obviously easy to be a minus on a bad team, but I'm comparing Phil to other Leaf players. Phil is a great finisher but adds no other positives to a team. He's not elite and nowhere near Stamkos. In fact, he and JVR are barely distinguishable on the score sheet over the last 3 years. Unfortunately, Phil gets paid twice as much. This. ^ I'd rather have two players like Stafford and Frolik than have a single one dimensional player like Kessel on the Jets and at the same cost. It's far better to have 3 lines that can play sound-defensive hockey than 1 line that just scores. It's even better to have one line that scores and can play sound defensive hockey, Kessel cannot provide that, not right now. I'm sure next season Phil will be in a new city and if it happens to be a better team and he still plays the exact same we will be able to lay this discussion to rest. Quote “Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find your way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”― Bruce Lee
overthere Posted March 7, 2015 Report Posted March 7, 2015 So yeah, the idea that that player wouldn't be an asset on just about any team in the league is preposterous. Yet nobody in the league thinks that he is enough of an asset to take him take him in a trade. Maybe it's just you that thinks he's fantastic. The Leafs don't. The rest of the league doesn't. This an anonymous board, you can speak the truth without jeopardizing your spot on the executive of the Phil Kessel Fan Club. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
PrimeNumber Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 Quote “Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find your way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”― Bruce Lee
The_Squid Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 The Leafs look great this year. Brian Burke has done a great job trading and drafting over the last couple of years. They have a pretty solid team, with a lot of younger talented players. I think thy're still a number 1 centre away from being a legitimate cup contender though. They just started a rookie goalie and got 38 saves out of him. Gustavson has been fine and there's no reason the believe Reimer has lost anything from last year when he comes back from his injury. They have a problem now because they have to many decent goalies. Even if Lupul or Kessel disappear you got MaCarthur, Graboski, Lombardi and this new kid Crab that are all producing their fare share of offense. I really like page 1 of this thread... Great moves by Burke! lol Quote
Michael Hardner Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 6-1 loss tonight. Ouch. Yes. Sportsnet said that the fans even stopped booing. Lower ratings for Rogers are a thing right now, lower demand for tickets could be the next thing. To answer the OP: yes, these Leafs are for real. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Mighty AC Posted March 9, 2015 Report Posted March 9, 2015 Yes. Sportsnet said that the fans even stopped booing. Lower ratings for Rogers are a thing right now, lower demand for tickets could be the next thing. To answer the OP: yes, these Leafs are for real. Ouch. Apathy is much more dangerous than anger for any team. Upset fans are still interested, fans that stop caring find something else to do with their time and money. Quote "Our lives begin to end the day we stay silent about the things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire
PrimeNumber Posted March 9, 2015 Report Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) Looks like it's not just the Jets that take team meeting infractions seriously. Kadri was sent home after showing up late to a meeting. Team mates do hold each other to standards after all. Edited March 9, 2015 by PrimeNumber Quote “Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find your way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”― Bruce Lee
Mighty AC Posted March 9, 2015 Report Posted March 9, 2015 Looks like it's not just the Jets that take team meeting infractions seriously. Kadri was sent home after showing up late to a meeting. Team mates do hold each other to standards after all. He was only sent home because he's cocky and brown. Quote "Our lives begin to end the day we stay silent about the things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire
Boges Posted March 9, 2015 Author Report Posted March 9, 2015 I'm actually going to see them tonight (Free tickets of course). I'm going to cheer when they let in goals. Quote
Boges Posted March 9, 2015 Author Report Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) He was only sent home because he's cocky and brown. Nice, a racism accusation there. I don't see any evidence that he's from a Muslim family play into his treatment. He is a hot head though, no question about it. So is Kessel. Edited March 9, 2015 by Boges Quote
Mighty AC Posted March 9, 2015 Report Posted March 9, 2015 Nice, a racism accusation there. I don't see any evidence that he's from a Muslim family play into his treatment. He is a hot head though, no question about it. So is Kessel. It was sarcasm. Black Dog implied earlier that Evander Kane was being bullied based on his cocky attitude and skin colour, not simply reprimanded for repeatedly violating team rules. Quote "Our lives begin to end the day we stay silent about the things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire
Boges Posted March 9, 2015 Author Report Posted March 9, 2015 It was sarcasm. Black Dog implied earlier that Evander Kane was being bullied based on his cocky attitude and skin colour, not simply reprimanded for repeatedly violating team rules. Wasn't the guy that is rumoured to have "bullied him" also a "person of colour". Quote
Mighty AC Posted March 9, 2015 Report Posted March 9, 2015 I'm actually going to see them tonight (Free tickets of course). I'm going to cheer when they let in goals. It will be nice to see the Islanders at least. They are so creative and move the puck around well. It's fun to watch. Quote "Our lives begin to end the day we stay silent about the things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire
Mighty AC Posted March 9, 2015 Report Posted March 9, 2015 Wasn't the guy that is rumoured to have "bullied him" also a "person of colour". Yep. Quote "Our lives begin to end the day we stay silent about the things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire
guyser Posted March 9, 2015 Report Posted March 9, 2015 Yet nobody in the league thinks that he is enough of an asset to take him take him in a trade. Maybe it's just you that thinks he's fantastic. The Leafs don't. The rest of the league doesn't. This an anonymous board, you can speak the truth without jeopardizing your spot on the executive of the Phil Kessel Fan Club. To be fair ,one cannot take that as proof that Kessel isnt any good or teams dont wish they had him. The price would have been too much for some, others wouldnt have the trades to offer, some would be up against the cap and so on. If he were a RFA , I am sure every team would look into what it would take to get him signed. Quote
Black Dog Posted March 9, 2015 Report Posted March 9, 2015 It was sarcasm. Black Dog implied earlier that Evander Kane was being bullied based on his cocky attitude and skin colour, not simply reprimanded for repeatedly violating team rules. No dummy, I suggested his skin colour had some bearing on how he was treated by fans and handled by the media. Same as PK Subban. Quote
The_Squid Posted March 9, 2015 Report Posted March 9, 2015 Nazem Kadri will be a healthy scratch as punishment for being late... http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/nazem-kadri-scratched-for-leafs-game-vs-islanders-1.2987225 Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.