OCCUPY

[bush_cheney2004]

Perhaps that hammer didn't hit the nails as hard as you think.

Oh yes they did....but not in Canada.

Speaking for myself I think the OWS movement is too late to do much about the state of affairs the world is in. Things are largely out of anyone's control now, inertia has taken over.

....or more people do not want to change the status quo. They have a choice...and that includes not supporting a bunch of losers in tents.

[Michael Hardner]

You want a big hammer single issue protest, but lookie, the damned kids have gone and changed the rules again.

I don't know if I would characterize it as 'changing the rules' as much as not thinking it through. I like when the rules change in such a way as to respond to challenges. The big challenge today is that the masses don't pay attention to protests, and are ambivalent towards them.

This new approach may address the first challenge, but for the second challenge - I think it will turn the public against them.

Perhaps you are behind the times gramps, this isn't your 60's & 70's anymore and no one is naive enough to expect change in big chunks unless it comes in viral form.

I'm not really complaining about the change in strategy (if that's what you want to call it) - I just don't like it.

[Michael Hardner]

This protest is against the 1%,not the 99%.And if you do not understand this protest it would be safe to assume you are not part of the 1%.

I don't understand... that last sentence.

I would suggest that OCCUPY is a further left than the average lefty on mapleleafweb.

Ok. Thanks for confirming my impressions on that.

[Michael Hardner]

Durring the 50's,60's and 70's the media was widely broadcasting the injustices of the day.Example would be "the shot that was heard around the world"(American soldier judge/jury/executioner in Vietnam)

During the 50s ? The big change came in the 1960s with protests and the living room war coming through on national television.

However today western governments are very quick to stamp out any unsencored media(wikileaks).

Do you have an example other than wikileaks ? Wikileaks was able to publish information that was secret, which is a different threshold than uncensored. There is lots of uncensored information in our world, such as this board.

If the media does not show you the injustices will you recognize them?And if the media does not report an injustice then is it?

What is 'the media' ? Do you really mean television ?

OCCUPY has a freekin mountain to climb,because people are brainwashed by the media!

They don't have a specific objective that I've heard of, so they should start with communicating that perhaps.

[Guest Derek L]

A good opinion piece from the Globe…

Occupiers are blaming the wrong people

Laurel O’Gorman is one of the faces of Occupy Toronto. She believes the capitalist system has robbed her of her future. At 28, she’s studying for a master’s degree in sociology at Laurentian University in Sudbury. She’s also the single mother of two children. “I’m here because I don’t know what kind of job I could possibly find that would allow me to pay rent, take care of these two children and pay back $600 each month in loans,” she said.

Ms. O’Gorman is in a fix. But I can’t help wondering whether she, and not the greedy Wall Street bankers, is the author of her own misfortune. Just what kind of jobs did she imagine are on offer for freshly minted sociology graduates? Did she bother to ask? Did it occur to her that it might be a good idea to figure out how to support her children before she had them?

What decision process lead her to a degree in sociology and having two kids she couldn’t afford? Perhaps a degree in nursing and holding off on children until she could afford them would have been more apt.

These people make up the Occupier generation. They aspire to join the virtueocracy – the class of people who expect to find self-fulfillment (and a comfortable living) in non-profit or government work, by saving the planet, rescuing the poor and regulating the rest of us. They are what the social critic Christopher Lasch called the “new class” of “therapeutic cops in the new bureaucracy.”

Indeed, the description is telling, this group is trying to carve out their own niche based on their personal interests…..unfortunately (for them) the actual 99% isn’t buying what they’re selling

The trouble is, this social model no longer works. As blogger Kenneth Anderson writes, “The machine by which universities train young people to become minor regulators and then delivered them into white-collar positions on the basis of credentials in history, political science, literature, ethnic and women’s studies – with or without the benefit of law school – has broken down. The supply is uninterrupted, but the demand has dried up.”

Their “lofty goals and ambitions” have gone the way of typewriters, steam locomotives and record players……Sure there is a small niche market for enthusiasts of these actives, but trying to make a hobby into a career……not so smart…….I’d love to have my current standard of living funded solely on my interests and hobbies.

The voices of Occupy Wall Street, argues Mr. Anderson and others, are the voices of the downwardly mobile who are acutely aware of their threatened social status and need someone to blame. These are people who weren’t interested in just any white-collar work. They wanted to do transformational, world-saving work – which would presumably be underwritten by taxing the rich. They now face the worst job market in a generation. But their predicament is at least in part of their own making. And none of the solutions they propose will address their problem.

Forty plus years ago, I’d dreamed of becoming any combination of Astronaut, cowboy/gunslinger/Davy Crocket and pro hockey player…..

[cybercoma]

Certainly we've heard about CEOs who headed firms that lost money, and still got bonuses.

This is an important point that people are missing. CEOs deserve to be paid more. They deserve to make a lot more for the level of responsibility that they have and the fact that the decisions they make have serious consequences for hundreds if not thousands of other people within their companies and often consequences for people and communities outside their companies. What's ridiculous is when they make horrible decisions and still rake in millions of upon millions of dollars on top of the multi-million dollar salaries.

Take Bob Nardelli, for instance. He worked for GE and when he was passed over by Jack Welsch for the helm, he got drafted by Home Depot. He made some of the worst business decisions in that company's history. He flipped staff form 80%-20% FT-PT to 20%-80% and the company relied on retaining good, knowledgeable fulltime staff to help customers do it themselves. He also slashed inventory leading into the spring, which crippled sales because anyone with two braincells to rub together can figure out that May long weekend is Home Depot's Christmas. This was the first time Home Depot had ever failed to increase its profits in the history of the company (some 20-25 years in). Nardelli's salary that year was somewhere around $6 million and his bonus... a stomach turning $15 million dollars.

Now, you would think the shareholders would have a say in something like this, but the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the shareholders mean absolutely nothing. General Managers and Assistant Store Managers the hundreds of them that there are in Canada, US and China are all given stocks in the company. Employees were given a stock purchasing plan with a 15% reduced price as an incentive, but Nardelli cut that. All of these people with a serious interest in the company and how it is run and it's lasting success, still allowed him to get away with this.

You know what the proverbial straw was that broke the camel's back? The board finally finally canned his ass after he instructed them not to attend the shareholders meeting in 2006. Not only that but he restricted shareholders from speaking at the meeting. So they fired him. He was with the company for 1 month beyond his 6 year anniversary there. His severance package after completely dropping the ball? $210 million. He not only dropped the ball, but he refused to listen to any of his advisors and made mistakes that most lot associates in the stores would not have made. He made close to $500 million in the 6 years that he was there. The average 6 year earnings of the Home Depot employee that either makes or breaks the sale when they interact with the customer on the front lines: $135,000.

[eyeball]

....or more people do not want to change the status quo.

I think a lot of people feel like passengers in the back seat of a car who's driver has fallen asleep and won't wake up. Not quite as bad as being on a plane who's wings have just fallen off, but close.

I bet most people would love to change the situation the world is in but they feel overwhelmed and out of control and utterly powerless.

[Michael Hardner]

Perhaps that hammer didn't hit the nails as hard as you think.

Speaking for myself I think the OWS movement is too late to do much about the state of affairs the world is in. Things are largely out of anyone's control now, inertia has taken over.

1. Well, big change happened in those two examples anyway. And protests continued to be used as a method for communicating through mass media.

2. What about the 'Arab Spring' ? Is that a mass movement ? Or is it a social movement ? When things don't change enough... the only way they change is to topple over.

In other words, I agree with you.

[bush_cheney2004]

Indeed, the description is telling, this group is trying to carve out their own niche based on their personal interests…..unfortunately (for them) the actual 99% isn’t buying what they’re selling

We have a shorthand term for such people....LOSERS.

Their “lofty goals and ambitions” have gone the way of typewriters, steam locomotives and record players……Sure there is a small niche market for enthusiasts of these actives, but trying to make a hobby into a career……not so smart…….I’d love to have my current standard of living funded solely on my interests and hobbies.

I just bought a new turntable....to convert hundreds of LP's to MP3 files!

Forty plus years ago, I’d dreamed of becoming any combination of Astronaut, cowboy/gunslinger/Davy Crocket and pro hockey player…..

Yea, we even had better dreams back then.

[eyeball]

1. Well, big change happened in those two examples anyway. And protests continued to be used as a method for communicating through mass media.

2. What about the 'Arab Spring' ? Is that a mass movement ? Or is it a social movement ?

Whatever it is I think it's also too little too late.

When things don't change enough... the only way they change is to topple over.

In other words, I agree with you.

That's the sort of change I'm expecting. I think I'm prepared although I haven't gone so far as arming myself. I've been resisting the impulse but it's growing stronger.

I guess I'm open to change in other words.

[jacee]

A good opinion piece from the Globe…

Occupiers are blaming the wrong people

Margaret Wente is a corporate bootlicker and mouthpiece.

/full stop

Edited November 6, 2011 by jacee

[blueblood]

This is an important point that people are missing. CEOs deserve to be paid more. They deserve to make a lot more for the level of responsibility that they have and the fact that the decisions they make have serious consequences for hundreds if not thousands of other people within their companies and often consequences for people and communities outside their companies. What's ridiculous is when they make horrible decisions and still rake in millions of upon millions of dollars on top of the multi-million dollar salaries.

Take Bob Nardelli, for instance. He worked for GE and when he was passed over by Jack Welsch for the helm, he got drafted by Home Depot. He made some of the worst business decisions in that company's history. He flipped staff form 80%-20% FT-PT to 20%-80% and the company relied on retaining good, knowledgeable fulltime staff to help customers do it themselves. He also slashed inventory leading into the spring, which crippled sales because anyone with two braincells to rub together can figure out that May long weekend is Home Depot's Christmas. This was the first time Home Depot had ever failed to increase its profits in the history of the company (some 20-25 years in). Nardelli's salary that year was somewhere around $6 million and his bonus... a stomach turning $15 million dollars.

Now, you would think the shareholders would have a say in something like this, but the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the shareholders mean absolutely nothing. General Managers and Assistant Store Managers the hundreds of them that there are in Canada, US and China are all given stocks in the company. Employees were given a stock purchasing plan with a 15% reduced price as an incentive, but Nardelli cut that. All of these people with a serious interest in the company and how it is run and it's lasting success, still allowed him to get away with this.

You know what the proverbial straw was that broke the camel's back? The board finally finally canned his ass after he instructed them not to attend the shareholders meeting in 2006. Not only that but he restricted shareholders from speaking at the meeting. So they fired him. He was with the company for 1 month beyond his 6 year anniversary there. His severance package after completely dropping the ball? $210 million. He not only dropped the ball, but he refused to listen to any of his advisors and made mistakes that most lot associates in the stores would not have made. He made close to $500 million in the 6 years that he was there. The average 6 year earnings of the Home Depot employee that either makes or breaks the sale when they interact with the customer on the front lines: $135,000.

The problem you have is the contract offered to the CEO. Do you have any info on what happened to the board of directors? The board made the mistake, shareholders revolted and the CEO got canned. 500 million over 6 years is not much in the grand scheme of things with a company as large as home depot, to compensate for someone who's decisions are worth billions.

What you will see in the future is that these big contracts might not get drawn up, and compensation will be different.

Contract law is a pain.

[cybercoma]

It's highly inappropriate for someone to be so inept at their job and make almost half a billion dollars while they're there. Half a billion. That's enough money to last many, many lifetimes. When is enough enough?

[Guest Derek L]

We have a shorthand term for such people....LOSERS.

I just bought a new turntable....to convert hundreds of LP's to MP3 files!

Yea, we even had better dreams back then.

Fess Parker & Rocket Richard aside, I think one telling difference between the 60s and today, with all the concerns of Communism, nuclear war, free love and equal rights setting the majority of the agenda of the day, the manned Space program, at least in some aspects, brought about the dreams and explorer like aspirations of many, of the possibility of reaching above and beyond mankind’s current woes, disputes and conflicts and looking towards tomorrow.

[blueblood]

It's highly inappropriate for someone to be so inept at their job and make almost half a billion dollars while they're there. Half a billion. That's enough money to last many, many lifetimes. When is enough enough?

That's the terms of the contract they signed. Ask the ny rangers about redden or the habs about Gomez. Either honor the contract or it's off to court.

[Michael Hardner]

That's the terms of the contract they signed. Ask the ny rangers about redden or the habs about Gomez. Either honor the contract or it's off to court.

But doesn't cybercoma destroy the argument that CEOs are deserving of their compensation?

[jacee]

I think a lot of people feel like passengers in the back seat of a car who's driver has fallen asleep and won't wake up. Not quite as bad as being on a plane who's wings have just fallen off, but close.

I bet most people would love to change the situation the world is in but they feel overwhelmed and out of control and utterly powerless.

I think this is a really accurate perspective, eyeball.

But I think that's why the OCCUPY movement has such broad support too. People see it as a new ray of hope, that the occupiers ARE gaining the attention of entrenched and corrupt corporate and government powermongers.

Their donations tell the true tale: They're buying $3,000 army tents for the winter, for example.

Don't lose hope. The government/corporate/media forces are trying very hard to discredit the movement, but it will soon become apparent that they're NOT able to weaken the determination of the occupiers.

Vancouver and others that are making noises about using force to remove them will back down because they do know that will only strengthen the movement and all the silent backers - those donating funds - will take to the streets as well.

Not to worry ...

[cybercoma]

blueblood, you're talking in postivist terms. It's the law, so it's Right. I reject that premise entirely on the grounds that legal codes need to have an ethical foundation to be Right.

[cybercoma]

But doesn't cybercoma destroy the argument that CEOs are deserving of their compensation?

Bob Nardelli is only one example. After that post I tried to find the particular Bob Nardelli story because I couldn't remember the details and I wanted to make sure I had remembered the numbers correctly. I still may be wrong about particular figures, but the general premise of the story is still true. Anyway, I came across this interesting article that mentions Nardelli among others:

[MSNBC] Bad CEOs Who Walked Away Rich

[blueblood]

But doesn't cybercoma destroy the argument that CEOs are deserving of their compensation?

Except that those contracts are written up when the CEO is hired. There is no way to know if the CEO is going to be a gem or a bust, only what they did in the past. if the CEO has a previous track record of raking in billions for the company, there is going to be competition to get him/her. Now the board must have looked at nadrelli's track record and made the contract accordingly, only to be horrified at what he was doing with the company.it's sort of being in a helpless position. The board gave him the chance to turn things around, he didn't and got fired.

It's like signing pro athletes to contracts. Some end up being worth the contract, and some end up being nightmares. I bet new jersey is going through a conniption fit with he kovalchuk contract.

Then there is the mark Hurd situation. Looking at hp's financials, he was worth every penny.

Edited November 6, 2011 by blueblood

[jbg]

Regardless if his motivations for these policies were based on an actual belief or just plain political pandering, the ends justify the means, for they all were once solely populace movements.

Nixon was about as much political panderer as you could get. He was a disgrace to our country.

Ronald Reagan accomplished far more and built rather than nearly destroyed the conservative movement and the Republican Party.

[Michael Hardner]

I think this is a really accurate perspective, eyeball.

But I think that's why the OCCUPY movement has such broad support too.

What makes you say the movement has broad support?

[jbg]

And after PET enacted the War Measures Act, how successful were the FLQ radicals (like yourself?) at achieving their goals?

Too successful. The OLA's incorporation into the Canadian Charter of No Rights and Special Pleadings?

[jbg]

Reports show that woman dies of a drug overdose, and people die from drug overdose in the streets of Vancouver all the time.

I thought legalized and government-provided needles were supposed to prevent this.

[jacee]

Several people at the protest site said the woman died of a drug overdose and heckled Robertson to provide more funding for addiction services and the homeless.

He told them the city has an outreach worker for the homeless and anyone at the site who doesn't have a home can be accommodated.

I've said this several times, but it bears repeating:

The homeless and discarded Canadians, mostly addicts and mentally ill people, who are flocking to the OCCUPY sites all across the country ... if they'd rather live in tents without facilities than the streets and shelters ...

WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THE COMPASSION AND SERVICES AVAILABLE TO THEM?

In Ontario - not sure about other provinces - since the Harris days, addicts/alcoholics - who often are diagnosed with mental illness as well - are cut off disability AND welfare. How the hell are they supposed to live?

They're not. The 1%'rs who ruled Harris' government want to ignore their existence - make them go away - die in a back alley somewhere no one can see them.

If OCCUPY inadvertently shines a light on the discarded people of Canada, that's an accomplishment in itself.

We no longer subject people with mental illness to involuntary institutionalization, but the money saved when the institutions were emptied in the 1980's never found its way into community supports for them - eg, supported housing. Instead they are left on their own to die, and their deaths don't even make news ... unless some politicians want to use them to score political points.

Who's mentally ill here?

The whole f'ng system!!