McGuinty's policy platform

scribblet · September 8, 2011

IMO the voters are inured to McGuinty's lies and deceit or they simply don't care, if re-elected he will take it as a mandate to continue lying.

Michael Hardner · September 8, 2011

There are no leaders to be had in any of the parties running - which is distressing..BUT just remember - never in the history of mankind has a politican ever solved a problem or enhanced the quality of human life..EVER - I don't even know why we have them....do YOU?

Incorrect. Lots of political solutions have provided solutions to problems, and government has helped frame a collective response to our common problems.

You're on government assistance, right ? You can thank a bevvy of politicans for setting up that system and feeding you. Hopefully, you're doing better as a result and will be back on your feet and making valuable art for the rest of us soon.

MiddleClassCentrist · September 9, 2011

Got an example?

Hudak said behind closed doors when all reporters had left the room that the only people who want his platform (in May) were the left wing media so they could slander it. That the voters didn't care specifics. Husband of a wife's friend is a reporter who hid behind a column to listen after the PC's thought they had all left.

Note that the language training credit applies to newcomers already employed, not those seeking employment.

Notice that they don't actually tell you how they are going to do it? The Tory platform is all smoke and mirrors. Nothing is actually of substance.

capricorn · September 9, 2011

Hudak said behind closed doors when all reporters had left the room that the only people who want his platform (in May) were the left wing media so they could slander it. That the voters didn't care specifics.

Who knows, maybe he was right.

Frankly, I wasn't paying any attention at the time. McGuinty had a majority so why would I care about specifics about a PC proposal that I knew would go nowhere?

Husband of a wife's friend is a reporter who hid behind a column to listen after the PC's thought they had all left.

Hmm. Did that make the news?

Notice that they don't actually tell you how they are going to do it?

You mean like McGuinty omitting from his platform which occupations would qualify for the $10K tax credit?

scribblet · September 9, 2011

It seems this issue is giving the PCs much traction and donations, if McGuinty wants a majority he'd better he's got some 'splaining to do.

Good piece here on this issue,

http://www.lfpress.com/comment/columnists/michael_dentandt/2011/09/08/18659586.html

Will Hudak benefit hugely from it at the polls? Yes, he surely will. And that’s not because Ontarians are racists, or against immigration or immigrants.
It’s long past time this tired, worn-out shibboleth was set aside. At root, the passion around this discussion stems from a deep-seated, widely held longing for colour-blind, faith-blind, gender-blind equality and fairness. That’s all.

-snip-

The desire for fairness may be the single most important driver of public sentiment in Ontario now. It extends from this new discussion over immigration tax credits, to the debate over race-based and faith-based schools, all the way to Caledonia and the OPP’s handling of aboriginal roadblocks.

Ontarians believe, by and large, that our system is fair only to the extent that the same rules apply to all, regardless of race, gender, age, sexual orientation, creed, eye colour, hair colour and fashion choices. This belief is a bedrock of Ontario’s kitchen-table-pragmatism — which can be loosely defined as fiscal conservatism, married to social progressivism. A hallmark of social progressivism is an idealistic belief in the values reflected in the Charter.

-snip-

When the three giants of human rights of the 20th Century — Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela — fought for racial equality, they didn’t frame their arguments in terms of exclusion or special status. They spoke instead of equality.

Edited September 9, 2011 by scribblet

Black Dog · September 9, 2011

Funny had the PC's put a tuition cut in their platform they'd be accused of eroding the tax base.

You need look no further than the strike of support workers and Ontario Community colleges to realize why tuition is so high.

I think too many students are going to post-secondary school for the wrong reasons. There should be no government subsidies for Liberal Arts degrees or programs that have little or no expectations on the future job market.

Money should be funneled to alloying people easier access to industries in demand like the trades and re-training people that find themselves unemployed because the industry they had been working in for years has erroded.

Another person who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

scribblet · September 9, 2011

View PostBoges, on 05 September 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:
Funny had the PC's put a tuition cut in their platform they'd be accused of eroding the tax base.

You need look no further than the strike of support workers and Ontario Community colleges to realize why tuition is so high.

I think too many students are going to post-secondary school for the wrong reasons. There should be no government subsidies for Liberal Arts degrees or programs that have little or no expectations on the future job market.

Money should be funneled to alloying people easier access to industries in demand like the trades and re-training people that find themselves unemployed because the industry they had been working in for years has erroded.

I tend to agree, I just read the about 80% of the education tax dollar goes to salaries, and what does a Liberal Arts degree really equip someone with- teaching ?

More money does need to put towards skills, trades training and easier access, maybe a substantial tax credit would give employers a reason to hire apprentices, because it's hard to get into any of these trades.

Boges · September 9, 2011

Dalton is doing it again BTW.

Yesterday he tells Hudak that by axing the Samsung deal he'll be denying jobs to 16,000 Ontarians. Should Dalton get elected again there's absolutely nothing that will bind him to that promise of 16,000 jobs. NOTHING!

He could say the Green Energy Act would employ every unemployed Ontarian. He's just pulling numbers out of his anus and hoping we believe him. And anyone who questions them is taking jobs from working families. The fact that people buy this crap is sickening.

Just like when he said he wouldn't raise taxes then did so. Or when he said the HST was revenue neutral when it wasn't. Another mandate to Dalton gives him permission do raise whatever taxes or fees he wants to without so any penalties whatever.

Boges · September 9, 2011

I tend to agree, I just read the about 80% of the education tax dollar goes to salaries, and what does a Liberal Arts degree really equip someone with- teaching ?

More money does need to put towards skills, trades training and easier access, maybe a substantial tax credit would give employers a reason to hire apprentices, because it's hard to get into any of these trades.

That's what many people do. Get some degree in history, communications or poly sci and then go into teaching. Which is why the proposal to extend teacher's college to two years will be upsetting to many in these programs.

William Ashley · September 9, 2011

That's what many people do. Get some degree in history, communications or poly sci and then go into teaching. Which is why the proposal to extend teacher's college to two years will be upsetting to many in these programs.

Being someone who is interested in teaching in the future.. I'm not upset by an additional year - although I am currious how it would effect 3 and 4 year BEd standalone programs. If it would turn it into a 4 / 5 year program or 5/6 year program.

None the less I think teachers should be well trained, but I think it is not fully realistic - except as offering or using the MEd as a basis of prefered teaching positions - there are a lot of teachers. However I think the professional marketplace already places a preference towards masters of education over bachelors of education so what is the deal? What happens does masters of education turn into an even longer program? Or do people graduate with a graduate degree in education instead of a post undergrad degree?

I am welcome though to extending learning time for professionals as already many teachers do not leave with a teaching position, many are on subs lists etc.. or just don't go into teaching - or are just on subs lists.

Invaldiating the BEd for teaching qualification I think is not going to happen. New programs might be adjusted but how much more can you back in. The 1 year post is fairly standard. I honestly think that it really means very little.

Edited September 9, 2011 by William Ashley

MiddleClassCentrist · September 10, 2011

Another person who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

There is intrinsic value in having an educated population?

Source?

heheh

-----

Education improves pretty much every aspect of society. From being healthier to bringing more higher level jobs and innovation into the economy.

I think Tim Hudak could look at what Ontario isn't doing well in education and target that... the problem is that it is expensive. Technological Education to give our students hands on skills training is one of the main areas for improvement but, Contruction, Computer Engineering, Nursing, etc programs aren't cheap to improve. The previous Tories were the ones that cut those programs because they are expensive.

Edited September 11, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

Boges · September 10, 2011

I never said education isn't important. But times are changing and the value of certain undergraduate degrees that don't really make the student more employable once they leave school.

A lot of times what happens is students do a 4 year undergrads then do a one or two year practical diploma program at a CC to get themselves a marketable skills. I guess if everyone had the means to do that, then fine but they don't.

I think those technical programs MCC mentioned should be focused on more. It used to be going into the trades was thought of as a lesser path. If I had to do it over again I'd have gone into a trade instead of the education path I took.

So is the point being made here that it's the government's responsibility to fund students education regardless of reasonable expectation of employment post their schooling years? Because I've seen many stories about the young un and underemployed. People who are highly educated that really have no reasonable employment expectations.

Argus · September 10, 2011

This is what the Tories ought to be hammering away at. This is what angers ontarions and where McGuninty is most vulnerable to very easy to understand sound byte information.

A study from the University of Madrid should give Ontario voters even more pause for thought. Spain experienced a state-sponsored solar bubble that was, in the words of the authors, "ter-ribly economically counterproductive." Spain was at the forefront of supporting renewable energy with billions of taxpayers' dollars, but the study found that for every green job created, massive government subsidies killed more than two jobs, principally because the higher cost of electricity affected the cost of production for energy intensive businesses. It concluded that the jobs created were few in number, mainly in construction and installation, at a cost of $775,000 each.

McGuinty's Green Bubble About To Pop

capricorn · September 10, 2011

Agreed. The main element in this campaign is discipline. McGuinty & Co. are masters at deflection and will do/say anything to get the PCs off message.

Dalton McGuinty's political antennae were up as he toured the new Flextronics solar panel plant, when he side-stepped an offer to wear a hairnet in front of the cameras, thus avoiding what is known in the business as the Gilles Duceppe doofus shot.

:lol:

PIK · September 12, 2011

Can the dalton supporters explain this to me. Dalton in his commercial says that ONT will be the first in north america to have all day kindergarden. Well people either his is really stupid or he thinks all of his supporters are stupid. Why? Because the yukon has had it for 6 years , quebec for many years , I think it is new brunswicks has had if for 15 years and 60% of the states have had it for years. He got up and looked into the camera and lied right to you face and the people are lapping it up. And how about that tax credit. Hudak is being called every name in the book for using the words foreign workers. Well that is the way dalton presented it.

Edited September 12, 2011 by PIK

Boges · September 12, 2011

Can the dalton supporters explain this to me. Dalton in his commercial says that ONT will be the first in north america to have all day kindergarden. Well people either his is really stupid or he thinks all of his supporters are stupid. Why? Because the yukon has had it for 6 years , quebec for many years , I think it is new brunswicks has had if for 15 years and 60% of the states have had it for years. He got up and looked into the camera and lied right to you face and the people are lapping it up. And how about that tax credit. Hudak is being called every name in the book for using the words foreign workers. Well that is the way dalton presented it.

Dalton Lie?

NOWAI!!!!

Boges · September 12, 2011

So who thinks this $10,000 tax credit for immigrants will stick to Dalton?

Hudak wouldn't be banging on it if he didn't think there'd be any traction.

And to hear that Dalton has demanded an apology only provides evidence that he's flailing about this ridiculous policy and making it an issue of racism.

PIK · September 12, 2011

Dalton Lie?

NOWAI!!!!

They all lie ,but he bakes the cake.

capricorn · September 12, 2011

And to hear that Dalton has demanded an apology only provides evidence that he's flailing about this ridiculous policy and making it an issue of racism.

Here is the video where McGuinty asks Hudak to say sorry.

He thinks Hudak's reference to foreign workers "compromises our strong international reputation as a beacon of hope and opportunity as we seek to attract highly skilled and educated people from around the world to come here and help us with our economy".

What is he saying? That workers from other countries would do a better job in building our economy than our present labour force and graduates from our education system? Workers from other countries. What would they be...foreign workers? In Dalton's world, foreign workers has become a politically incorrect term.

MiddleClassCentrist · September 12, 2011

What is he saying? That workers from other countries would do a better job in building our economy than our present labour force and graduates from our education system? Workers from other countries. What would they be...foreign workers? In Dalton's world, foreign workers has become a politically incorrect term.

Because, Hudak called them foreigners.

They aren't foreigners. They are New Canadians. And Hudak is calling new Canadians FOREIGN.

Hudak looks like an ass in this. Not Dalton.

Ontario Progressive Conservative Leader Tim Hudak isn't sorry for using the term "foreign workers" to describe new Canadians who would stand to benefit from a Liberal business tax credit proposal but is now using gentler language to frame the issue.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2011/09/12/mcguinty-hudak-apology564.html

Edited September 12, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

scribblet · September 13, 2011

McGuinty should apologize to the unemployed of Ontario, he's the one who not only looks like an ass, but is one.

Smallc · September 13, 2011

Why? This program is directed at people who have a chronically high unemployment rate. It's designed to given Canadian citizens that haven't been here that long the ability to compete with others. I'm not always a fan of programs like these, but because this one is aimed at people who have marketable skills, I don't see it as a detriment.

capricorn · September 13, 2011

Because, Hudak called them foreigners.

They aren't foreigners. They are New Canadians. And Hudak is calling new Canadians FOREIGN.

From the beginning, I thought using the term "foreigners" in debating this policy was folly on the part of the PC Party. It seems Hudak has backed off on this and is sticking to the affirmative action sound bite. How much this will hurt the party remains to be seen.

Here's what the Liberal platform (page 27)says about the tax credit to businesses hiring recently arrived immigrants, or as the Liberals call them "newcomers".

Immigration is another Ontario advantage. The quicker we engage the
skills newcomers have when they arrive, the quicker they will succeed.

We’ll create a tax credit for business to give our highly skilled newcomers

the Canadian work experience they need.

http://www.ontarioliberal.ca/OurPlan/pdf/platform_english.pdf

"Newcomers" does not necessarily mean Canadian Citizens. Newcomers cannot apply for Citizenship until they have been in Canada for 3 years.

This attempt to claim this program is only for those who are in the country five years or less plus are citizens shows how little thought was put into the program. Either this is open to landed immigrants who are not citizens or it is guaranteed to help pretty much no one.
To even apply for citizenship you must have spent three of the previous four years in Canada. Presuming you spent every single day of the last three years in Canada and have now applied to become a citizen, you are now looking at a 19 month wait to be approved.

That leaves just five months to enrol in this fictitious program if everything moves on time. That doesn`t account for delays in processing times for citizenship applications or the deduction of time spent outside of Canada – such as vacations or trips back to the home country to see relatives – prior to the citizenship application going in.

http://brianlilley.com/2011/09/mcguintys-liberals-are-full-of-it/

The Liberals are now scrambling to clarify what should have been made clear in their platform. McGuinty should stop whining about an apology and work to convince Ontario voters why his party should be re-elected.

MiddleClassCentrist · September 13, 2011

http://brianlilley.com/2011/09/mcguintys-liberals-are-full-of-it/

The Liberals are now scrambling to clarify what should have been made clear in their platform. McGuinty should stop whining about an apology and work to convince Ontario voters why his party should be re-elected.

Newcomer to me could mean under 5 years, recent immigrant/new Canadian. Regardless, McGuinty is trending up in the polls.

I'm not sure that McGuinty has to convince people why his party needs to be elected at this point... Hudak+PC Campaign is doing a good job of giving people reasons why not to vote PC... Honestly, the Liberals aren't raising in the polls on their merit.

The PC's haven't created a wholesome brand this election. Calling out foreigners? might as well put a "racist redneck" stamp on Hudak's forehead. BBQ's with Rob Ford? Toxic, Rob Ford isn't popular in many areas. Hudak should have differentiated himself from other Conservatives and I think he could have walked to victory... Instead he fell into negative stereotypes.

Still weeks till the election date, people will probably swing again.

capricorn · September 13, 2011

I'm not sure that McGuinty has to convince people why his party needs to be elected at this point...

Well then. What's the point of a campaign? But then you may be right. A low voter turnout and support/resources from the unions could assure McGuinty another victory.

Calling out foreigners? might as well put a "racist redneck" stamp on Hudak's forehead.

It has nothing to do with race. McGuinty is prepared to discriminate against unemployed and underemployed native born and immigrant Canadians, who have been here too long to be included in Dalton's affirmative action plan, devised to garner votes in the GTA.

Hudak should have differentiated himself from other Conservatives

Wrong. Hudak should differentiate himself from McGuinty. With 3 weeks to go, there's still time.

Still weeks till the election date, people will probably swing again.

What's that saying? Polls are for dogs. The polls in the last election showed another Harper minority and he obtained a majority. In TO, the polls showed Smitherman giving Ford a run for his money. Look how that turned out.