Layton's Last Letter

[TimG]

Something tells me that the attempts by the wealthy to pay less tax would not be measurably less fervent if the money was going to poor Africans rather than poorish Canadians.

You missed the point entirely. I was suggesting that 50% of income of middle class Canadians be taken for distribution to Africans. I fully expect that such a move to be vigorously opposed because people are hypocrits.

[CANADIEN]

Well that is the point. "Fair" is a subjective term which is used as political propoganda because it sounds like one is stating a fact when one is really stating an opinion.

August was merely pointing out the hypocracy of expecting the "rich" to pay 50%+ of their income to support the Canadian poor but not expecting the "rich" (when compared to Africans) middle and lower class Canadians to pay 50%+ of their income to support Africans.

Basically the correct translation of "fair" is "take money from one group with I don't like and give it to another group that I like". There is nothing noble about it but it is sometimes justified.

The real hypocrisy is from those who yelp "How about the Africans?" when they actually couldn't care less about them.

BTW, the NDP (and even the Conservatives) have advocated for increases in foreign aid.

[Michael Hardner]

Then why isn't the current system fair?

You're asking me my opinion here ? Maybe better for another thread.

We are talking relative measures. Layton is arguing that the "rich" who already pay alot are not paying enough. One can similarily argue that the poor and middle class in Canada are not paying enough to Africans. But Africans are not a key NDP voting block so they don't factor very highly.

And where is the evidence that this is true? The vast majority of people are gaining the benefits technology and globalization. There lives are better than they were 20 years ago. The only block of people who are worse off are some of the workers in rich countries who now face a global competition for jobs.

In anything, the global movement of capital has made the planet a lot "fairer" because residents of rich countries no longer have a monopoly on well paid jobs. Speaking as someone making a living in a rich country I could do with a lot less 'fairness' on that front.

There's something in what you write. But it's also true that the owners of the technology, and the brands, and the media are doing far better than others. Few would argue that government has to strike a balance, although of course we will disagree on what is a 'fair' balance.

[Remiel]

You missed the point entirely. I was suggesting that 50% of income of middle class Canadians be taken for distribution to Africans. I fully expect that such a move to be vigorously opposed because people are hypocrits.

Are you seriously trying to tell me you do not think it is somewhat warped to suggest that it is more " fair " to make those in the middle poorer to make those at the bottom better off which at the same time making those at the top even richer? People often object to mere levelling down, yet this is an even worse solution.

[TimG]

There's something in what you write. But it's also true that the owners of the technology, and the brands, and the media are doing far better than others.

And why shouldn't companies and people who develop technology and brands be better off than others?

Few would argue that government has to strike a balance, although of course we will disagree on what is a 'fair' balance.

Exactly, what is that balance?

I don't really mind Layton writing his final political manifesto. It is fitting exit for someone that dedicated his life to politics. But it is a political manifesto and people that disagree with the politics contained within it are entitled to disagree.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Oh my God I can't believe some of the stuff that I have read here and on that other thread about Jacks death.

The man just died,is there anything that's off limits when someone dies?

Some real low people here,I'm not mentioning any names you know who you are!

Cancer is a terrible disease,Gods strength for those fighting and their family members supporting them!

Conservatives have no morals. ... I guess they'll have to find a way to convince their religious followers that Christ told them to manipulate the last words of a dying man into a political game for their benefit.

They are trying to keep the man's message of good will from becomming and sort of movement that is not in line with Conservative ideology...

It is pathetic.

Edited August 23, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[scribblet]

I haven't read all the comments, but if you want low, read these from so called 'progressives' - pretty damn sick

http://mooseandsquirrel.ca/2011/08/22/13:28/rip-jack-layton-if-your-supporters-will-let-you/

[Guest American Woman]

I haven't read all the comments, but if you want low, read these from so called 'progressives' - pretty damn sick

http://mooseandsquirrel.ca/2011/08/22/13:28/rip-jack-layton-if-your-supporters-will-let-you/

Nothing like a tragedy to bring out the "ugly" in some people. Whenever there's a crisis/tragedy, there doesn't seem to be any lack of tasteless, hateful comments in response.

[guyser]

Nothing like a tragedy to bring out the "ugly" in some people. Whenever there's a crisis/tragedy, there doesn't seem to be any lack of tasteless, hateful comments in response.

Careful, remember you are ignorant of how they live, you dont travel anywhere excpet in fancy hotels.

Know any place in a funny land called France? Or Norway?

(I agree with you, brings all the loonies out with no sense of decency)

Edited August 24, 2011 by guyser

[Guest American Woman]

Careful, remember you are ignorant of how they live, you dont travel anywhere excpet in fancy hotels.

Know any place in a funny land called France? Or Norway?

I know where those lands are! They're in EPCOT Center.

(I agree with you, brings all the loonies out with no sense of decency)

It truly amazes me sometimes how hateful and ugly people can be. Best to just ignore it as there's not much anyone can do to stop it where there's freedom of speech.

[BubberMiley]

It truly amazes me sometimes how hateful and ugly people can be.

I've had to give up reading news article comments on the web entirely.

[Thorn]

Uh, what? Care to back that up with some evidence? Or do you think anecdotal assumptions are a better base for policy than nebulous terms like "fairness"?

Anecdotal assumptions are not a basis for an ideological statement either. But I'm not making one.

There is no real reason I can think of to be in poverty in Canada, barring physical/mental/emotional problems, and certainly no reason to stay that way, unless you simply lack the drive and motivation to do something about it.

[Thorn]

These are your values.

They weren't stated as values so much as factors in whether a person will do as well, economically, as another person. And if the answer is no, then it can't really be said to be unfair that they don't.

Do they work more hours ? Do they suffer health problems because of their status ? Does it make a better society to give the children of the lower classes the same opportunities to better themselves ? Do those who inherit wealth naturally deserve to be 'successful' because they had an ancestor who worked hard ?

I don't think we disagree so much about the desirable results as to the 'fairest' means of getting there.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Thorn

[Thorn]

Oh my God I can't believe some of the stuff that I have read here and on that other thread about Jacks death.

The man just died,is there anything that's off limits when someone dies?

There is a thread on Jack Layton. This one is about the letter, which was quite political, and so is being discussed in a political fashion.

Get over it.

[BubberMiley]

This one is about the letter, which was quite political, and so is being discussed in a political fashion.

It was only "quite political" if you consider "love," "optimism" and "fairness" politically charged buzzwords.

[Black Dog]

We are talking relative measures. Layton is arguing that the "rich" who already pay alot are not paying enough.

How much is "a lot?" How much should the rich pay to make it...fair?

[Black Dog]

Anecdotal assumptions are not a basis for an ideological statement either. But I'm not making one.

There is no real reason I can think of to be in poverty in Canada, barring physical/mental/emotional problems, and certainly no reason to stay that way, unless you simply lack the drive and motivation to do something about it.

So it's simply your lack of imagination that's at fault here.

Carry on, then.

[Michael Hardner]

They weren't stated as values so much as factors in whether a person will do as well, economically, as another person. And if the answer is no, then it can't really be said to be unfair that they don't.

Really ? This is what you said:

Why should they be? I mean, are they all as smart as high income earners? Are they as capable? Do they have the same drive to succeed? Do they push themselves as much, on average?

Seems like a reflection of values... people who have these attributed "should" succeed right ?

I don't think we disagree so much about the desirable results as to the 'fairest' means of getting there.

But strangely, we haven't talked about the means much at all...

[BubberMiley]

It's funny to see how the conservatives get so upset whenever someone they disagree with is praised. It was the same when Trudeau died.

Blatchford was pretty funny but I think my favourite was the Calgary Sun editor who said maybe he isn't dead but just needs a good massage.

I'm going to miss M. Dancer.

[Boges]

How much is "a lot?" How much should the rich pay to make it...fair?

Actually I'm not too concerned with the super rich, nor should governments. They can pay what they pay and still have enough to feed the economy. I think a lot of the problems the US is having is that they are too afraid to tax the rich like they did in the boom periods of the 50's.

I am concerned with increased taxation on the middle class and lower middle class though. And unless you're in a Union, I don't think the likes of the NDP care too much for you.

When you start lowering the definition of what "rich" means then, I'd argue, you start eroding disposable incomes of average people.

This is why I find the idea that Liberals speak for "working families" hilarious. No they don't they just want more money from them so they don't have to be efficient themselves.

[g_bambino]

It's funny to see how the conservatives get so upset whenever someone they disagree with is praised.

That's an odd interpretation of Blatchford. Was the previous Princess of Wales a Marxist?

[BubberMiley]

I don't recall her being compelled to immediately write a column condemning the mourners when Diana died.

[g_bambino]

I don't recall her being compelled to immediately write a column condemning the mourners when Diana died.

I can't say for sure. And I don't read condemnation anywhere in her piece, either. But, that's all beside the point: unless Diana, Princess of Wales, and the other nameless stars and politicians Blatchford alludes to were people conservatives (which is itself a pretty undefined term) disagreed with, your claim about such people getting "upset whenever someone they disagree with is praised" doesn't hold up.

[August1991]

I believe the point that August is making is there is no universal standard for "fairness" and that the perception of "fairness" is a purely subjective process. In most cases what people mean when they say they want "fairness" is that they want a solution that benefits them. That is why August lead with the example of how Layton's concept of "fairness" does not extend to redistributing the income of lower and middle class Canadians to Africans.

Can you give me an example of anyone using the word "fairness" to express a sentiment that was not, at its core, self serving and intended to benefit the group targeted by the messsage?

TimG, you explain partly my point. In the 19th century, "fairness" was possibly the basis of a political movement. I just don't think that it is in the 21st century.

For heaven's sakes, is it "fair" that Jack Layton died so young?

Oh shut up.

BD, I was tired of hearing the same s*it on the English CBC. Thank God the Internet exists to provide an alternative, "progressive" viewpoint.

[BubberMiley]

But, that's all beside the point: unless Diana, Princess of Wales, and the other nameless stars and politicians Blatchford alludes to were people conservatives (which is itself a pretty undefined term) disagreed with, your claim about such people getting "upset whenever someone they disagree with is praised" doesn't hold up.

Once again, unless you can show how she criticized and mocked the mourning over Diana, Princess of Wales, and the other nameless stars and politicians the day after they passed away, your claim that she wasn't "upset" that someone she disagreed with was praised doesn't hold up.