Occupy Wall Street Sept 17 2011

[blueblood]

You have it backwards, what we have now is essentially corporate fascism. Right now the wealth is being sent upwards to the hands of the few.

Wrong, the rest of the world is getting richer while most of the western world is acting like spoiled children when the allowance is cut off.

[Jack Weber]

You have it backwards, what we have now is essentially corporate fascism. Now the wealth is being sent upwards to the hands of the few.

Yes...

Precisely because we have places like China that the free marketeers on Wall and Bay Street are willing to sell out their own populaces for issues of competativeness,productivity,shareholder value,and,any other free marketeering poverty inducing canards that get thrown out usually under the guise of "personal freedom"...

This is happening because we have all gone to far to the side of "business knows best" and we have allowed our public political process to be infected by the interests of business above all else.This has separated and perverted our democratic process.for 30 years,in increasing amounts,we have seen this mindset take over and we have seen wage stagnation and our standard of living continue to fall.That fall is gaining velocity...

All the while,and you are correct,that wealth goes upwards into the hands of the few in the Von Hayek/Friedmanite wealth redistribution excercise.

Edited October 10, 2011 by Jack Weber

[Jack Weber]

Wrong, the rest of the world is getting richer while most of the western world is acting like spoiled children when the allowance is cut off.

Is this the "Free Marketeers are the new global humanitarians" drivel I'm hearing more of lately?

[Jack Weber]

Out west, we are decoupled from eastern canada and sell what we produce for world prices. An auto industry/manufacturing in the tank doesn't affect western canada. Western canadians compete with other places around the world in our respected industries, why can't the manufacturing sector?

The invisible hand at work.

1. I still don't care what you do for a living.

2.You still have not answered the question.

[Shady]

Wrong, the rest of the world is getting richer while most of the western world is acting like spoiled children when the allowance is cut off.

Exactly. There's a lot of people, some in this forum, that think they're entitled to certain jobs. They think it's the 1960's, where only Europe and North America existed as the big kids on the block. They're stuck in a time warp. Refusing to acknowledge a new reality, where many other countries are also competing with us in a global economy.

[Guest American Woman]

Wrong, the rest of the world is getting richer while most of the western world is acting like spoiled children when the allowance is cut off.

This is really "food for thought" - and it seems as if those calling for spreading the wealth around the world are the ones most upset now that things have evened out - and westerners (supposedly) have less than in the past because of it.

[Shady]

This is really "food for thought" - and it seems as if those calling for spreading the wealth around the world are the ones most upset now that things have evened out - and westerners (supposedly) have less than in the past because of it.

Exactly. Europe and North America went decades without really having to compete. After WWII, it was pretty much only North America and America in particular left to build, manufacture and provide services. Then Japan came along. Now China, India, and countries in South America. People here are going to have to get used to competing more. We don't have a monopoly on the global economy anymore, for better or for worse.

[Sir Bandelot]

How does the top 10% holding 80% of the wealth, and the bottom 90% holding 20% of the wealth represent "evened out"?

[Jack Weber]

How does the top 10% holding 80% of the wealth, and the bottom 90% holding 20% of the wealth represent "evened out"?

It's called "Free Marketeering/Friedmanite Fuzzy Math"

[Bob]

How does the top 10% holding 80% of the wealth, and the bottom 90% holding 20% of the wealth represent "evened out"?

Since when is equal distribution of wealth some ideal towards which we should strive? What right do you have to any money you didn't earn on your own through the exchange of free individuals in a free society? Goddamn, I despise you socialists.

[Jack Weber]

Since when is equal distribution of wealth some ideal towards which we should strive? What right do you have to any money you didn't earn on your own through the exchange of free individuals in a free society? Goddamn, I despise you socialists.

By "socialists" do you mean sane people??

Because if so...

We despise you,General Franco!!!

Edited October 10, 2011 by Jack Weber

[blueblood]

How does the top 10% holding 80% of the wealth, and the bottom 90% holding 20% of the wealth represent "evened out"?

Because even though the "rich" have an obscene amount of money, living standards have also been improving for ordinary people.

The gap is irrelevant. At the end of the day, ordinary people in developing countries have more than they had before. The same goes here. In the 1970s hardly anyone had computers, now people classified as poor these days have one. Its not rich people making a boatload of cash that's the problem, its "poor" people and their jealousy that is.

[Sir Bandelot]

Because even though the "rich" have an obscene amount of money, living standards have also been improving for ordinary people.

The gap is irrelevant. At the end of the day, ordinary people in developing countries have more than they had before.

Yep, just enough to keep the slaves coming back to work for massa tomorrow. Well, that's how it used to be in the past. But today the greed of the elite has reached such heights as to undermine the very balance of the system that used to sustain them. They outsourced to slaves in foreign lands, with the intent to sell a 10 cent pair of pants to us for 50 bucks. Think of the profit margins...

But alas, the yellow slaves are now on the rise, andno stone is left untirned for the rich to exploit. Likewise, the common weal can no longer afford those pants. Their greed has finally caved in on itself. Praise Allah

[Sir Bandelot]

Since when is equal distribution of wealth some ideal towards which we should strive? What right do you have to any money you didn't earn on your own through the exchange of free individuals in a free society? Goddamn, I despise you socialists.

Of course we earned it. The elite did nothing but use their inheritance to sustain their position of power. Real production comes from the masses, and is property of the masses. That's why it is right to have an equalization tax on the wealthy, no one should be allowed to be that rich. They should be forced to pay more, so that the under-privileged, the down trodden have a chance to live too. What's wrong with that?

That's the way Canada and Europe are headed, like it or not. You may hate us, but you only hate us for our freedom.

[blueblood]

Of course we earned it. The elite did nothing but use their inheritance to sustain their position of power. Real production comes from the masses, and is property of the masses. That's why it is right to have an equalization tax on the wealthy, no one should be allowed to be that rich. They should be forced to pay more, so that the under-privileged, the down trodden have a chance to live too. What's wrong with that?

That's the way Canada and Europe are headed, like it or not. You may hate us, but you only hate us for our freedom.

Chavez tried that and his country is the laughingstock of the western hemisphere.

If the manufacturing workers want jobs so damn bad they can take a paycut and produce goods at a less of a cost than the chinese.

Apple is the largest company in north america by market capitalization, last I checked apple was started in a garage.

[Jack Weber]

Chavez tried that and his country is the laughingstock of the western hemisphere.

If the manufacturing workers want jobs so damn bad they can take a paycut and produce goods at a less of a cost than the chinese.

Apple is the largest company in north america by market capitalization, last I checked apple was started in a garage.

Ah yes...There it is...

It really is all about the race to the bottom for you folks,is'nt it?

Just impoverish ourselves to satisfy the poverty inducing economic theories folks like you feel are so great.

[Sir Bandelot]

Chavez tried that and his country is the laughingstock of the western hemisphere.

If the manufacturing workers want jobs so damn bad they can take a paycut and produce goods at a less of a cost than the chinese.

Apple is the largest company in north america by market capitalization, last I checked apple was started in a garage.

You make it sound so simple. But realistically, have you seen how prices are going up? Look at food costs in the past 3 years. Prices have gone up in some cases by about 30%. My wages are practically stagnant. How can we lower wages?

No, that's not in the solution. Actually I believe the system is broken and will only continue to decline.

[Jack Weber]

You make it sound so simple. But realistically, have you seen how prices are going up? Look at food costs in the past 3 years. Prices have gone up in some cases by about 30%. My wages are practically stagnant. How can we lower wages?

No, that's not in the solution. Actually I believe the system is broken and will only continue to decline.

They don't care...

It's all about "competativeness" and "productivity"...In otherwords,willingly impoverish ourselves to line their pockets...

"Let the Free Market reign!"..

[Sir Bandelot]

Protests without criminality offer people an opportunity to vent their frustrations, whatever those frustrations may be. Some protests can attract people who really don't share the frustration of others protesting. It's just something to do and to be part of the action. As an example, there will be a protest here in Ottawa shortly. Where, I don't know yet. If I'm bored I might just go down there and shout along with the others.

Cool Cap, go for it!

I knew there was a little socialist in you, just waiting to come out.

[blueblood]

You make it sound so simple. But realistically, have you seen how prices are going up? Look at food costs in the past 3 years. Prices have gone up in some cases by about 30%. My wages are practically stagnant. How can we lower wages?

No, that's not in the solution. Actually I believe the system is broken and will only continue to decline.

Prices are rising because of cheap money govt policy that has resulted in massive endebtedness and people being too stupid to save their money. The other reason prices are rising is because of real demand from overseas. They finally have adequate money to buy things including food. Canada is one of the worlds largest food exporters, high food prices are a good thing. Lots of employment opportunity in the food/agribusiness.

Wages have to come down to increase competitiveness from overseas. Yes that means that factory workers may not afford carribean vacations or new cars every year or 300 000 K homes when the wages come down, but its either lower wages or ship the jobs overseas. Not only does that have to happen, but the average person needs to pay off debt which will put a dent in prices by cutting demand.

The system got broken when people and government became idiots concerning debt. The only way to fix this mess is to pay off the debt and bring our production costs in line with the rest of the world, and unfortunately that medicine tastes awful.

[Sir Bandelot]

The system got broken when people and government became idiots concerning debt. The only way to fix this mess is to pay off the debt and bring our production costs in line with the rest of the world, and unfortunately that medicine tastes awful.

I'm with you there. In relation to the topic of this thread, I think what pisses off the masses is that while they must take their medicine, pay off their debts which is fair, they see that others have been given a bailout when they've already been making the big money for many years, and taking fancy vacations. People want justice. They want to see their tax money go to paying out national debts and getting the economy back on its feet again. I am willing to pay my fair share, but not if the money gets wasted so that shareholders can maintain their privileged percentages, despite other failings. They gotta pay their share too.

Oh and same goes for reduction in wages.

<Insert "Dreamer... you silly little dreamer...">

[maple_leafs182]

Yes...

Precisely because we have places like China that the free marketeers on Wall and Bay Street are willing to sell out their own populaces for issues of competativeness,productivity,shareholder value,and,any other free marketeering poverty inducing canards that get thrown out usually under the guise of "personal freedom"...

This is happening because we have all gone to far to the side of "business knows best" and we have allowed our public political process to be infected by the interests of business above all else.This has separated and perverted our democratic process.for 30 years,in increasing amounts,we have seen this mindset take over and we have seen wage stagnation and our standard of living continue to fall.That fall is gaining velocity...

All the while,and you are correct,that wealth goes upwards into the hands of the few in the Von Hayek/Friedmanite wealth redistribution excercise.

If there weren't such heavy taxes and regulations in countries like America and Canada then you would see less of the jobs going over seas. Also, you have to look at the fact that we constantly subsidize oil which leads to lower oil prices which makes a lot of that outsourcing viable. But the thing I keep emphasizing the most is fiat currencies. Fiat currencies allow these large corporations to have such easy access to large amounts of capitol which allows them to make all the investments which allows them to accumulate all the wealth.

[blueblood]

I'm with you there. In relation to the topic of this thread, I think what pisses off the masses is that while they must take their medicine, pay off their debts which is fair, they see that others have been given a bailout when they've already been making the big money for many years, and taking fancy vacations. People want justice. They want to see their tax money go to paying out national debts and getting the economy back on its feet again. I am willing to pay my fair share, but not if the money gets wasted so that shareholders can maintain their privileged percentages, despite other failings. They gotta pay their share too.

Oh and same goes for reduction in wages.

<Insert "Dreamer... you silly little dreamer...">

Many on the right do not like corporate bailouts either. That was one of the pillars of the tea party. Had those companies been allowed to fail there would have been massive short term pain (unemployment), but however other companies or people would be able to purchase the assets of the failed company at a discount and buy/things for lower prices.

I understand the frustration of incompetant CEOs of bailed out companies still getting bonuses, and that is due to contract obligations. The govt figures its cheaper to pay the bonus than to get into legal problems. My opinion, if a corporation wants a bailout from the govt it should go into bankruptcy so it can start fresh and can renegotiate management salaries and possibly change management.

[blueblood]

If there weren't such heavy taxes and regulations in countries like America and Canada then you would see less of the jobs going over seas. Also, you have to look at the fact that we constantly subsidize oil which leads to lower oil prices which makes a lot of that outsourcing viable. But the thing I keep emphasizing the most is fiat currencies. Fiat currencies allow these large corporations to have such easy access to large amounts of capitol which allows them to make all the investments which allows them to accumulate all the wealth.

And what makes up a corporation? That would be shareholders and they come from all walks of life.

If a corporation is making investments and getting a respectable return on those investments, that shows that the borrowing of money is being done in the right way. That's how its supposed to work and how growth is achieved.

Its when people borrow money to buy homes and cars they can't afford to pay back is where the problem is with easy money policy.

Oil and energy production has to be subsidized because its a matter of national security.

[maple_leafs182]

And what makes up a corporation? That would be shareholders and they come from all walks of life.

If a corporation is making investments and getting a respectable return on those investments, that shows that the borrowing of money is being done in the right way. That's how its supposed to work and how growth is achieved.

Its when people borrow money to buy homes and cars they can't afford to pay back is where the problem is with easy money policy.

Oil and energy production has to be subsidized because its a matter of national security.

I'm all for companies borrowing money and investing that money. What I am not for is banks and corporations being pumped full of cash by central banks. It is trillions of dollars, it is done in secret by central banks and worst of all is they make that money out of thin air. That isn't fair to everyone else especially since all those extra dollars that enter into circulation devalue the rest of the dollars already in existence which is hurts the poorer people. The monetary system is designed for banks and big corporations.

Edit: Subsizing oil has nothing to do with national security

Edited October 11, 2011 by maple_leafs182