Occupy Wall Street Sept 17 2011

[jacee]

Seems to me there are a fair number of Canadians who criticize because they know all about the U.S. while Americans know nothing of Canada - so here we have some who take an interest, and the response is to refer to us as "lurkers and loafers?" Real nice.

Sometimes I wonder whether your interest goes beyond influencing eg our interpretation of our laws eg that cops should arrest people they 'think' might have consumed something illegally ... or stuff like that.

And some of bc's derailing seems reflective of some influencing of issues.

We're all loafers here though.

Here by choice for some version of entertainment/socializing/challenging ourselves and each other to think and learn and understand each other.

I was also raising the possibility of unknown lurkers whose interest may be more than loafing.

[TimG]

Why wouldn't I? I mean, if those are values that I admire, why would I dislike their message.

Sorry then. Made some incorrect assumptions.

[jbg]

I do wonder why our few US posters hang around us powerless Canucks, but we do have "their" oil, albeit underground ... First Nations ground to boot ... and under protest. That would be enough spawn some lurkers and loafers to keep 'an eye' on us.

Does that apply to me?

[jacee]

Anti tax crusaders generally agree there needs to be some taxes to pay for things like roads. The tea party (rightly) took some heat because many members opposed social security and medicare cuts.

This image does bring the point home that our lives depend on the production provided by corporations and that perhaps the rhetotic that 'corporations are evil' is over blown.

Perhaps some ussteal are illintentioned liars signing contracts in bad faith liars cheating families and people who just want to work but won't sell out the pensioners to lying cheating predators. It's not an all or nothing thing, all good all bad. And we have to weed them out.

And my preference always is that they weed themselves out by setting standards for corporate activity themselves and mechanisms for enforcing them, like professions do. Lawyers do get disbarred by their peers, doctors get licenses suspended/revoked by other doctors, psychologists by psychologists, teachers decertify teachers, etc.

Certainly the bankers who fund corporations should be setting and enforcing standards for themselves that at a minimum respect the laws.

Because the bottom line for the public is don't try to tell us everything's ok, "trust us" ... not good enough ... Show us that you're policing your own operations by doing it ... publicly.

Corporations are not all evil ... that's a hypothesis. Now provide the evidence.

Edited October 8, 2011 by jacee

[TimG]

people who just want to work but won't sell out the pensioners to lying cheating predators.

You do realize that pension funds depend on corporate profits? No profits. No pensions. If corporations are evil then pension funds are evil. Edited October 8, 2011 by TimG

[jbg]

Back to the disorders, anarchy and filth Occupy Wall Street Sept 17 2011.

Excerpts on neighborhood conditions (link):

October 7, 2011

For Some, Wall Street Is Main Street

By CARA BUCKLEY

Panini and Company Cafe normally sells sandwiches to tourists in Lower Manhattan and the residents nearby, but in recent days its owner, Stacey Tzortzatos, has also become something of a restroom monitor. Protesters from Occupy Wall Street, who are encamped in a nearby park, have been tromping in by the scores, and not because they are hungry.

Ms. Tzortzatos’s tolerance for the newcomers finally vanished when the sink was broken and fell to the floor. She installed a $200 lock on the bathroom to thwart nonpaying customers, angering the protesters.

********************

Mothers have grown weary of navigating strollers through the maze of barricades that have sprouted along the streets. Toddlers have been roused from sleep just after bedtime by chanting and pounding drums.

Heather Amato, 35, a psychologist who lives near the protest area, said she felt disturbed by some of the conduct of the protesters. She said she had to shield her toddler from the sight of women at the park dancing topless. “It’s been three weeks now,” Ms. Amato said. “Enough is enough.”

*******************

Even so, it appears that many residents are ready for Occupy Wall Street to occupy somewhere else.

“I do believe in the right to protest,” said Karen McMann, 33, a mother of two young daughters who lives across from the New York Stock Exchange. “But in other cities, the financial district is separate. Here, this is a neighborhood they’re coming into. They’re disrupting a lot of people’s lives.”

I don't think the people who live in these neighborhoods are plutocrats. They have rights too.

[jacee]

You do realize that pension funds depend on corporate profits? No profits. No pensions. If corporations are evil then pension funds are evil.

And screw the pensioners now, when they're too old to work to make up what they're taking away from them?

If a corporation operates by signing a contract with no intention of keeping it ... you would say 'that's just business'?

Is that good business?

They haven't tried to operate for profit here, though elsewhere yes.

Edited October 8, 2011 by jacee

[TimG]

And screw the pensioners now, when they're too old to work to make up what they're taking away from them?

Screw them? In most cases I am aware of the company is simply trying to renegotiate the terms of the contract and are acting within the law. This is a reasonable position to take where DB pensions are rich luxury that no one other than retirees from defunct corporations and coddled government workers get.

If you have a problem with the way companies are acting over pensions now you should be blaming the union for letting the pension go unfunded while they increased their wages and benefits. There would be no issue today if the union had accepted lower salaries and benefits in years gone by and used the money to set up their own pension fund instead expecting the company to fund it.

[CPCFTW]

And screw the pensioners now, when they're too old to work to make up what they're taking away from them?

If a corporation operates by signing a contract with no intention of keeping it ... you would say 'that's just business'?

Is that good business?

They haven't tried to operate for profit here, though elsewhere yes.

Funny when a person breaks his contract to pay back a mortgage it's the banking industry's fault, but when a company breaks a contract to provide a pension (which was likely signed under the duress of strikes), it's the company's fault.

If worker's want to threaten the existence of a company to negotiate their contracts, then the contract will never be negotiated in good faith and there is a possibility of it being broken. If I threatened your existence by holding a gun to your head and demanded you pay me $500,000 in 30 years, I'm sure you would sign too.

You have the corporate hate blinders on as usual.

[jacee]

Screw them? In most cases I am aware of the company is simply trying to renegotiate the terms of the contract and are acting within the law. This is a reasonable position to take where DB pensions are rich luxury that no one other than retirees from defunct corporations and coddled government workers get.

If you have a problem with the way companies are acting over pensions now you should be blaming the union for letting the pension go unfunded while they increased their wages and benefits. There would be no issue today if the union had accepted lower salaries and benefits in years gone by and used the money to set up their own pension fund instead expecting the company to fund it.

The company wants the current workers to accept a contract that takes away the annual cost of living increases for 9000 pensioners, now too old to work.

That's the issue I'm referring to.

The current workers refuse to sell out the ELDERLY PENSIONERS.

That's why the ILLEGAL LOCKOUT continues.

Anyone who supports USSTEAL's position is scum in my books.

The contract related to USSTEAL'S purchase of Stelco was negotiated with the federal government, not with workers. The gov is taking them to court. The court deemed this an ILLEGAL LOCKOUT.

CPCFTW, TimG ... know what you are talking about before you continue blathering along the company lines.

And skip the insults.

This is about elderly pensioners, not current workers.

Edited October 8, 2011 by jacee

[blueblood]

The company wants the current workers to accept a contract that takes away the annual cost of living increases for 9000 pensioners, now too old to work.

That's the issue I'm referring to.

The current workers refuse to sell out the ELDERLY PENSIONERS.

That's why the ILLEGAL LOCKOUT continues.

Anyone who supports USSTEAL's position is scum in my books.

The contract related to USSTEAL'S purchase of Stelco was negotiated with the federal government, not with workers. The gov is taking them to court. The court deemed this an ILLEGAL LOCKOUT.

CPCFTW, TimG ... know what you are talking about before you continue blathering along the company lines.

And skip the insults.

This is about elderly pensioners, not current workers.

A company cannot pay people not to work on the level you want and expect to remain profitable. The big 3 tried that and had their car prices jacked up for years, then consumers had enough and bought foreign cars. This caused 2 of 3 companies to be bailed out and ford had to mortgage every asset it had.

If you are elderly and wasted your money when you were younger, that's your fault your retirement sucks. Lots of people save for retirement and make sacrifices. The days of retirees getting million dollar retirement packages from employers is over, there isn't enough wealth generated to pay for it.

[jacee]

A company cannot pay people not to work on the level you want and expect to remain profitable. The big 3 tried that and had their car prices jacked up for years, then consumers had enough and bought foreign cars. This caused 2 of 3 companies to be bailed out and ford had to mortgage every asset it had.

If you are elderly and wasted your money when you were younger, that's your fault your retirement sucks. Lots of people save for retirement and make sacrifices. The days of retirees getting million dollar retirement packages from employers is over, there isn't enough wealth generated to pay for it.

USSTEAL bought the company with full knowledge of its obligations and signed a contract with the feds agreeing to fulfill those obligations.

Now they are reneging, a violation of their legal agreement.

You disgust me with your petty insults against old men who PUT THEIR LIVES ON THE LINE EVERY DAY FOR 30 YEARS to make steel and make profits for the company. I DARE YOU to say that to their faces you snivelling scumsucking coward!!!

What do you know about real work. Nothing.

[cybercoma]

Really? Who provides the tools that allow the labour to work? Who provides the organization that allows the labour to to be effective? On its own, labour could never deliever the goods that keep modern society running. Corporations do that.

You're arguing something different now. You said corporations provide production and it's basic economics that production is only achieved by people providing labour. Without corporations we would live independent agrarian lives. Do you think the people in the Andean Highlands got their footplows from corporations? Do you think hunter/gatherers bought their baskets and spears at the market? No. Production is the only thing people have that is their own.

[cybercoma]

You do realize that pension funds depend on corporate profits? No profits. No pensions. If corporations are evil then pension funds are evil.

The problem is that you have no capacity to think beyond the system that we are in. Pension funds are not required to depend on corporate profits. Those pensions are only one leg of the retirement table, but I'm not even suggesting that pensions are dispensible. It's just not a necessity that they depend on corporate profits.

[cybercoma]

Ms. Tzortzatos’s tolerance for the newcomers finally vanished when the sink was broken and fell to the floor. She installed a $200 lock on the bathroom to thwart nonpaying customers, angering the protesters.

Perhaps the protestors putting locks on the sewage systems that supply her building, which they paid for.

Mothers have grown weary of navigating strollers through the maze of barricades that have sprouted along the streets. Toddlers have been roused from sleep just after bedtime by chanting and pounding drums.

...and car horns, and traffic, and... it's NYC for crying out loud. This is just petty emotional rhetoric. SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN! OWS is thinking of the children. Too bad Wall Street isn't.

Heather Amato, 35, a psychologist who lives near the protest area, said she felt disturbed by some of the conduct of the protesters. She said she had to shield her toddler from the sight of women at the park dancing topless. “It’s been three weeks now,” Ms. Amato said. “Enough is enough.”

A psychologist? You don't say? Appeal to authority much? We can subject children to the aggression and violence of police swinging batons wildly at protestors trying to back away or burning the eyes of protestors with pepper spray.... no biggie. Kids seeing a human being without clothes on, now that's traumatic! Topless women is nothing more than a social taboo. In Ontario it's legal for women to be as topless in public as it is for men. There is nothing offensive or traumatizing about it. Perhaps mothers should be banned from breast-feeding. We wouldn't want infants seeing breasts.

“I do believe in the right to protest,” said Karen McMann, 33, a mother of two young daughters who lives across from the New York Stock Exchange. “But in other cities, the financial district is separate. Here, this is a neighborhood they’re coming into. They’re disrupting a lot of people’s lives.”

I agree... Wall Street is disrupting a lot of peopele's lives. It's time Karen McMann joined the protest.

[jacee]

A little data on workplace deaths in Canada ...

2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

322....362...324...324...377

Clearly workplaces in Canada are more dangerous for workers than war is for soldiers.

Not denigrating the sacrifices of soldiers at all.

Just pointing out that their fathers 'back home' in the factories and workplaces of Canada face higher risks of death than the young soldiers in combat.

The cannibalism of the corporate war industry profitters is as dangerous at home as abroad.

The corporate profiteers eat the young ... and the middle aged ... and now the elderly pensioners too.

[cybercoma]

Those statistics don't mention the people that suffer from permanent disabilities or even long-term disabilities from injuries sustained in the workplace.

[TimG]

Pension funds are not required to depend on corporate profits.

One way or another they are. Even a fund invested in government bonds depends on profitiable corporations which can hire people which can then pay taxes.

Our entire economy is built on a foundation that requires corporations that make ever increasing profits. Take that foundation away and we would be reduced to living a life of subsistance farming.

[TimG]

The company wants the current workers to accept a contract that takes away the annual cost of living increases for 9000 pensioners, now too old to work.

Why should the company has any responsibility for workers that never worked for it? The problem here was caused by a greedy union that allowed an unsustainable pension system to be set up so they could get bigger pay and benefit packages. If they had insisted on a sustainable pension system then it would have meant lower wages and the union did not want that.

Stelco could have gone bankrupt. What kind of pensions would those people have then?

Why should US Steel use profits from other operations to fund pension obligations that it only inherited?

What is wrong with US Steel saying that it wishes to NEGOTIATE changes to the pension obligations?

Edited October 8, 2011 by TimG

[TimG]

---

Edited October 8, 2011 by TimG

[TimG]

You're arguing something different now. You said corporations provide production and it's basic economics that production is only achieved by people providing labour.

When I said that 'that our lives depend on the production provided by corporations'. I was referring to the conveniences that we take for granted in our modern lives. Cars, electronics, mass produced clothing, et. al. None of these things would have happened without the organizational structure we call a corporation which pools risk and allows large quantities of capital to be invested effectively.

[cybercoma]

When I said that 'that our lives depend on the production provided by corporations'. I was referring to the conveniences that we take for granted in our modern lives. Cars, electronics, mass produced clothing, et. al. None of these things would have happened without the organizational structure we call a corporation which pools risk and allows large quantities of capital to be invested effectively.

Are you sure? Could this not have happened with co-operative businesses?

[jacee]

Why should the company has any responsibility for workers that never worked for it?

Ask them. They signed the contract agreeing to it.

The problem here was caused by a greedy union that allowed an unsustainable pension system to be set up so they could get bigger pay and benefit packages than they would have gotten if they can insisted on a sustainable pension system.

Stelco could have gone bankrupt. What kind of pensions would those people have then?

Why should US Steel use profits from other operations to fund pension obligations that it only inherited?

Because they signed a contract agreeing to it.

What is wrong with US Steel saying that it wishes to NEGOTIATE changes to the pension obligations?

USSTEAL is "negotiating" nothing. They produced a take-it-or-leave-it offer, refused to negotiate anything, and when the workers wouldn't accept it as written, USSTEAL illegally locked them out.

Now they've re-presented exactly the same 'offer' with some 'sweetening' for current workers (signing bonus, etc) to try to bribe them into selling out the elderly pensioners.

Not happening.

I'll just mention as well ... isn't it lucky that USSTEAL just happened to staff the operation with managers that could make coke? The managers are cranking out coke behind the picket lines and shipping it to their operations in the US. At first they blatantly LIED and said it was going to Nanticoke, which makes its own coke.

Neo-Liberal Paul Martin's 'Canada' Steamship Lines ships (registered in tax haven countries) are chugging away behind the picket lines too, hauling coke out of the country that could be making steel in Canada instead.

Such is the nature of PREDATORY capitalists.

US STEEL is not suffering:

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/united_states_steel_corporation/index.html

Analyst Ratings

Buy 6

Outperform 4

Hold 6

Underperform 1

Sell 1

Edited October 8, 2011 by jacee

[TimG]

Are you sure? Could this not have happened with co-operative businesses?

Can you give me one example of a co-operative businesses that does anymore than manage the distribution of agriculture production? How about an example of a technological innovation developed by a co-op?

[TimG]

USSTEAL is "negotiating" nothing. They produced a take-it-or-leave-it offer, refused to negotiate anything, and when the workers wouldn't accept it as written, USSTEAL illegally locked them out.

A take-or-leave it offer is still a attempt to follow the law and negotiate changes to obligations. BTW just because a corporation has contractual obligations that does not automatically means that those obligations are just.

Now they've re-presented exactly the same 'offer' with some 'sweetening' for current workers (signing bonus, etc) to try to bribe them into selling out the elderly pensioners.

In other words: they are NEGOTIATING. What exactly is the problem?

BTW: you have not answered the question: what would have happened to those 9000 pensioners if Stelco went bankrupt and its assets were sold off? Until you answer that question you really have no business complaining about US Steel's negotiating position.