Oleg Bach Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 I guess we're all getting what we want and deserve then. People do not determine a government - who you kidding. If people determined what the government did - there would be no same sex marriage and there would be on Afghanistan...really - do you think the average person wanted either of these things? Social engineers - the buisness elite - acedemics with big new ideas and heads shaped like eggs determine our future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 People do not determine a government - who you kidding. If people determined what the government did - there would be no same sex marriage and there would be on Afghanistan...really - do you think the average person wanted either of these things? Social engineers - the buisness elite - acedemics with big new ideas and heads shaped like eggs determine our future. I'm under no illusion about who doesn't call the shots in our world. And when the right is in power we get moral engineers who are just as bad if not worse than the social ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitizenX Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 (edited) Army Guy I appreciate your intelligent response.I think we can agree to disagree on this off topic point and lay it to rest. I would like to say that my use of the term Brainwashing was not intended to be an insult.I believe that these technique (to some degree) have been used way before the term brainwash was even coined.Turning a civilian into a soldier is as much a psychological as a physical process. The whole procedure is in a sense brainwashing, except the soldier undergoes it voluntarily.It was never my intent to use the word in a malevolent or tin foil hat wearing context. Also I would like you to understand my other comment about whether supporting the troops is always right. My comments were of a philosophical nature, and again not meant to be derogatory. Personally I support our troops 99% of the time, but that doesn't mean I will support them unconditionally.If at any time I believe they are involved in something unjust or immoral I would no longer be able to support them. Also I don't believe you can separate state actions and soldiers action. The soldiers give the state the power to commit unjust or immoral acts. Hitler with out his army and ultimately individual soldiers could not have orchestrated the atrocities he did. Note: Any comment I made in regards to Bush stands, he is evil incarnate. Edited August 3, 2011 by CitizenX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chippewa Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 George Bush has been to Canada several times...why do you give safe harbour to "war criminals"? Because Canada is a slave to the U.S system. Canada is really the United States little Bit**. Canada ships off most of its oil, and sells off all the resources there. Can't bit the hand that feeds you. Aside from that, Canada gets all the fancy bombs and missles from the U.S. Maybe we are upgraded military options like which kind of bombs we can drop in Afgahnistan and Lybia. That country Lybia. They just sound like a bunch of wussys. That country sounds like they are named after a female part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 Your sterotype is a urban legend, one that dates back as far back as the 50's....when the military was well over 120,000 strong and was used as an employment tool....todays military is only 68,000 strong, and the compition to get in is much greater, so the quality of recruit is going to be much higher. Here are some facts, every officer must earn a degree before grading RMC, and must continue his education through out his early years Via OPME military courses (not sure how many i thought 12, may be higher,and they msut be completed before a certain piont in their carear) these courses are very intensive, and are acreadited University courses... Army Guy, do the Forces still have the continuing education OTP? I know in the 90s they used it to fill high attrition trades like death tech and armour and had similar plans for accredited doctors and zoomies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 You are absolutely right. I know journalists who hardly ever interact outside their own families with non journalists....and university students....at that tender, impressionable young age are with other students 24/7 Thanks, on the same token, how many people would want to associate with their coworkers, all the time, outside of work? Sure, you’re going to develop close friendships, and in some case meet a future spouse, but like anyone else, you valve your free time. I remember this old stereotypical Chief Petty Officer in the navy…….Smoked three packs a day, knew his way around the bottle, tattoos on top of tattoos, a voice like a fog horn etc…One that you couldn’t picture doing anything else…………after getting to know him on a somewhat personal level, it turns out his wife ran/runs a foster home, they raised Shetland ponies and in his spare time he played with model trains….. How’s the old saying go about judging books by their covers…….. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 Army Guy, do the Forces still have the continuing education OTP? I know in the 90s they used it to fill high attrition trades like death tech and armour and had similar plans for accredited doctors and zoomies. Yes, but under a different name,if approved and fits with DND's requirements they will pay for and send you to a any civilian school for higher education, (normally has to be close to your supporting base)...., ie complete university degrees, get your masters, etc...they will also pay for trades courses that are not offered within DND but valued by your trade/job.... They also spend some major funds on second language training,french/ english being primary but if you have shown a knack or ability for other langauages they will pay and provide for this type of training as well.. Other plans Today if you already have a civilian qualification, such as mech, plumber, Doctor, nurse, etc and those trades are short they offer large cash incentives for you to join....these do not include incentives already put in place, for instance there are separate pay rates for doctors, nurses, dentists, lawyers, etc ...IE a Maj who is a doctor makes way more than a Maj who is a pilot, and tones more than a Inf Maj. These include direct entry, at Cpl or Capt rank levels after completion of basic training.... They have also concentrated on recruiting from the reserves, offering direct entry, with accrededation for courses they have already completed....Note that most if not all Reserve courses are the same as Reg force. and up to last year the process worked in reverse as well, retired Reg force guys would double dip, and roll right into a reserve postions(normally working for the same unit) but due to cost savings cut backs DND has slashed a large portion of the Class B reserve postions (full time). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 Also I would like you to understand my other comment about whether supporting the troops is always right. My comments were of a philosophical nature, and again not meant to be derogatory. Personally I support our troops 99% of the time, but that doesn't mean I will support them unconditionally.If at any time I believe they are involved in something unjust or immoral I would no longer be able to support them. This is a good piont, and one i think i do understand and agree with 100%, however it is a kind of a double edge sword as well don't you think, i mean it should not be just our soldiers that are held to such high standards but all Canadian citiizens as well as it is one of their many responsabilties to make change when change is needed.... be it a form of protest or direct action. There has been lots of mention of Supporting the troops, on this forum, and in the media every where. But what does it really mean....Does it mean you'd go out of your way to shake a soldiers hand, buy him a beer at a bar, slap him on the back and say thanks....(Not that, that is what every soldier wants, but it is nice to be recongized once in a while).....or does it mean ensuring the military is well funded, equiped to do the tasks we ask of them, be it through our vote, written or physical protests or lobbing. or does it mean just being fashionable and stating I support the troops, because your afraid of standing out in the crowd....which is not a canadian thing to do.... standing out from the crowd ..... I'll explain what i'm getting at.... yesterdays news announced another poll....titled was it worth it....refing to our mission in Afghan, it states that 70 % of Canadians think it was a waste of time and lifes.....30 % of Canadians believe we accomplished alot of things and it was worth the time and effort..... 85% of Canadians Support the troops.... Here's my bitter pill to swallow....all my time ,effort, and blood, i spent in Afghan under our flag is considered by most Canadians as a waste of time....My comrads who made the final trip home in a casket had died in vein, for nothing according to 70 % of Canadians.....and as bitter as that is i'm willing to swallow it, don't agree but i'm still swallowing.... I think they should do a poll on soldiers who served in Afghan....and ask a few questions of our own.... Do you think Canadains abandoned the mission, soldiers and afghan ? what has the average Canadian done to support the troops? Do you think the average Canadian actually gives a rats ass about Afghan ? soldiers ? or the military ? maybe i'm to close to the subject to have a broad enough perspective....but i like things in black and white..not shades of politically correct grey.... Also I don't believe you can separate state actions and soldiers action. The soldiers give the state the power to commit unjust or immoral acts. Hitler with out his army and ultimately individual soldiers could not have orchestrated the atrocities he did. Your state has gone to great lengths to ensure it's soldiers recieve the training to make sure this does not happen ever...in fact most western armies have as well.... Hilter's army is not a very good example, as it was not so much as soldiers showing loyality to Hilter and serving with out question, as much as it was fear of death...don't under estamate fear one can make anyone do anything if one has something to loose.... Your right the state is useless with out an army....but to ensure compliance fear is used to keep everyone in line and serving the cause....look at most of the middle east right now.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 all my time ,effort, and blood, i spent in Afghan under our flag is considered by most Canadians as a waste of time....My comrads who made the final trip home in a casket had died in vein, for nothing according to 70 % of Canadians... One shouldn't give one poll much significance; I don't believe the results of a poll actually demonstrate what the majority of 30+ million people think about a given subject, and the questions frequently lead respondents towards certain answers. A number of polls taken over a period of time are what's needed to get a truer picture of what opinions most people hold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 Thanks for the post Army Guy... I don't know either what 'Support our Troops' means. It would make more sense to me if we said "Thank our troops" or "Think about our soldiers". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 Thanks for the post Army Guy... I don't know either what 'Support our Troops' means. It would make more sense to me if we said "Thank our troops" or "Think about our soldiers". Good point Michael. "Support the Troops" is a slogan co-opted by the right-wing to essentially say that if you don't support the current mission, then you hate our soldiers and are a bad Canadian. It's propoganda. It means nothing. 99% of the people that have these bumper stickers have probably not done anything for our troops other than put a bumper sticker on their car. Propoganda should not be placed on government fleet cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 (edited) Propoganda should not be placed on government fleet cars. So no Canadian Flags or identifying logos either? ..or only "propaganda" you don't like? .... those "smoke detectors saves lives" decals they have on fire trucks are propaganda....lets get rid of them Edited August 4, 2011 by M.Dancer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 So no Canadian Flags or identifying logos either? How is a Canadian Flag propaganda ? What about 'Support Prime Minister Harper' on all government vehicles ? Or 'Keep It Beautiful' ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 How is a Canadian Flag propaganda ? If you have to ask how, then you don't know what propaganda is.... Hint: it isn't a message you don't like Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 If you have to ask how, then you don't know what propaganda is.... I guess I don't. I thought some kind of message was involved, not just a symbol representing our nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 So no Canadian Flags or identifying logos either? ..or only "propaganda" you don't like? A Canadian flag or the words "Ministry of Environment" is not propoganda. You may be confused about the definition of propoganda, so here it is: "Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position so as to benefit oneself." "Support the Troops" is propoganda. Is it ok to put "Peace, not war" bumper stickers on gov't vehicles? It's a message that probably 90% of people would agree with.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 I guess I don't. I thought some kind of message was involved, not just a symbol representing our nation. Symbols are also messages...jung might suggest they are more powerful than words. The 'Support of Troops' message is simple. It means to honour them for the braverly and sacrifice...and yes, the poppy is propaganda too... and flags are very propagandistic.... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/SuomiNeito.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Flag_of_Nazi_Germany_%281933-1945%29.svg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 A Canadian flag or the words "Ministry of Environment" is not propoganda. You may be confused about the definition of propoganda, so here it is: "Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position so as to benefit oneself." "Support the Troops" is propoganda. Is it ok to put "Peace, not war" bumper stickers on gov't vehicles? It's a message that probably 90% of people would agree with.... Curious, you pasted the wiki definition but you don't seem to understand it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 ....Is it ok to put "Peace, not war" bumper stickers on gov't vehicles? It's a message that probably 90% of people would agree with.... So you do support government propaganda for such things....why single out "troops" vs. "recycling"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 So you do support government propaganda for such things....why single out "troops" vs. "recycling"? bingo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 The 'Support of Troops' message is simple. It means to honour them for the braverly and sacrifice...and yes, the poppy is propaganda too... The poppy's meaning is clear enough that it doesn't need words on it. If 'support' means 'honour' as you suggest, one wonders why they didn't say 'honour our troops' - which also would be more clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 The poppy's meaning is clear enough that it doesn't need words on it. If 'support' means 'honour' as you suggest, one wonders why they didn't say 'honour our troops' - which also would be more clear. Because honour is too complex and not always understood...some people would think that they are asking far a star on the sidewalk or a trophy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 Because honour is too complex and not always understood...some people would think that they are asking far a star on the sidewalk or a trophy. It seems that the current phrasing is also confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 bingo No sorry not even close. This whole "support the troops" slogan is a political wedge thats constantly used to browbeat opponents of a given government policy. Its not the same as recycling. But if we need to completely ban ALL bumper stickers on government vehicles in order to avoid wasting time arguing about this kind of pointless retarded crap, then so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 ...But if we need to completely ban ALL bumper stickers on government vehicles in order to avoid wasting time arguing about this kind of pointless retarded crap, then so be it. No more flag logos or queens on currency either...that will show those NeoNazi bastards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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