Vive le Québec ! Vive le Québec Libre !

[August1991]

I don't like this kind of music, and I hate the idea of reducing a complex argument to a simple music video.

But in many ways, Canada is not a country. It is a geographic term, like the equator.

Edited June 19, 2011 by August1991

[Smallc]

But in many ways, Canada is not a country.

And in many more ways, it is.

[Jack Weber]

August...

Go and soft pedal your pseudointellectual Quebec nationalism to the suckers out there who are willing to buy your snow job...

[cybercoma]

You can reduce any political state to its geography. Political borders are arbitrary in a sense, sometimes following formations such as rivers and mountains, other times not. Sometimes the boundaries divide different cultural settlements, again other times they don't. One thing is for certain though, the vast majority of state and especially Canada are nothing more than an arbitrary construct. Nationalism and some unified vision of Canada is, including our symbols, are even more arbitrary. That too means that Quebec's nationalism is an arbitrary construct. Its political boundaries do not exist around geographical or sociocultural formations. Its symbols and identity is constructed through its government and media just the same. Even the idea of self-government for Quebec is difficult because that idea of what "self" is has been constructed. Do Quebeckers include the Anglophones, First Nations and Allophones? Are they included in the "self" of Quebecois self-government and sovereignty? What division do they want if not the arbitrary geopolitical one already created and whose Quebec is it in that case?

In other words, I don't even think Quebec knows what Quebec wants.

[g_bambino]

But in many ways, Canada is not a country. It is a geographic term, like the equator.

How in hell you derive that conclusion from that vapid song is beyond me. All we see there is something everyone already knows: there are young Quebec artists who are souvereigntiste because they think it's rebellious and sounds smugly self-confident to be so, i.e. cool, as any young artist that wants to be taken seriously feels they should be. In fact, though, sovereigntism has now been around so long as to have become the mainstream establishment upheld by these kids' parents, which doesn't resonate with many other young Quebecers, and all that video manages to imply is that Quebec is not a country, nor even has the potential to be one, since it is nothing but three clichés and a catch phrase. It is the worst kind of nationalism: tribal and brainless.

[+]

Edited June 19, 2011 by g_bambino

[August1991]

August...

Go and soft pedal your pseudointellectual Quebec nationalism to the suckers out there who are willing to buy your snow job...

WTF?

Go back and watch the video again. It's really good in HD, full screen.

[Jack Weber]

WTF?

Go back and watch the video again. It's really good in HD, full screen.

See Bambino's post...

[CPCFTW]

The video was ok but that music sucked. If that's the culture we'll be missing out on then I'm all for separation!

But seriously, if Quebecois want more independence, they should be voting for a conservative party. Conservatives want to reduce the size and power of the federal government and give more autonomy to the provinces.

The social views of the conservative party may not align with Quebec's, but most conservatives believe in less interference from a federal power and more freedom for a province to choose its own social initiatives.

As the federal government reduces tax rates on corporations and individuals, that will provide more opportunity for provincial governments to raise taxes to implement their own social policies.

If federal corporate tax rates are cut to 10%, then a conservative province like Alberta believing in low taxes to attract business and stimulate growth might set their corporate tax rate to only 10%, resulting in a combined 20% corporate tax rate. With the lower tax revenue they would provide less government funded social services and rely on businesses to provide maximum employment to minimize the social burden.

Meanwhile a province like Quebec might choose to set corporate tax rates to 20% for a combined 30% corporate tax rate. They would have higher tax revenues to provide more social services and a larger "safety net", but there would likely be higher unemployment due to the tax advantages for businesses to locate in provinces other than Quebec.

Voting for a party like the NDP, who will just say whatever will get them the most votes, does nothing to advance any movement towards greater autonomy.

Edited June 19, 2011 by CPCFTW

[bloodyminded]

It is the worst kind of nationalism: tribal and brainless.

I agree. It's one thing to listen to the nationalists making some (arguably) cogent arguments; I disagree with them, but at least they're not 100% bereft of any legitimate points whatsoever.

It's another thing altogether when it is a reflexive bit of self-indulgent "rebellion," ill-considered and vapid, premised on being indoctrinated into a masturbatory notion of "victimization by the ROC." I find the wannabee Albertan separatists quite similar in a broad sense, though the particularities are different.

Edited June 19, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Jack Weber]

I agree. It's one thing to listen to the nationalists making some (arguably) cogent arguments; I disagree with them, but at least they're not 100% bereft of any legitimate points whatsoever.

It's another thing altogether when it is a reflexive bit of self-indulgent "rebellion," ill-considered and vapid, premised on being indoctrinated into a masturbatory notion of "victimization by the ROC." I find the wannabee Albertan separatists quite similar in a broad sense, though the particularities are different.

Don't get me started on the oil pumpin' crybabies...

[Shwa]

I agree. It's one thing to listen to the nationalists making some (arguably) cogent arguments; I disagree with them, but at least they're not 100% bereft of any legitimate points whatsoever.

It's another thing altogether when it is a reflexive bit of self-indulgent "rebellion," ill-considered and vapid, premised on being indoctrinated into a masturbatory notion of "victimization by the ROC." I find the wannabee Albertan separatists quite similar in a broad sense, though the particularities are different.

Separatism as a media driver. Makes for good news bites. Although if Federalism is all the Quebec youth can rebel about they are more trouble than they think.

[g_bambino]

It's another thing altogether when it is a reflexive bit of self-indulgent "rebellion," ill-considered and vapid, premised on being indoctrinated into a masturbatory notion of "victimization by the ROC." I find the wannabee Albertan separatists quite similar in a broad sense, though the particularities are different.

I've found that, in order to prop up their argument for departing Confederation, Quebec separatists force themselves to reduce Quebec to a caricature of itself; that video is case in point. Of course, Quebec is more than poutine, the Habs, and fleurs-de-lys, and the too often heard "oppressed by les Têtes-carré" whine is unadulterated invention. However, to say otherwise would mean accepting that Quebec's rich history and even its culture - which are what a strong, stable nation needs more than clichés - are inseparably intertwined with Canada's and the common history actually isn't mostly bad. But, acknowledging all the facts hurts the souvereigntist cause; je me souviens (si que c'est seulment ce que je veut souvenir).

I can't say, though, that the majority of Canadians are much better. When Canada Day is here in less than two weeks, regard how this celebration will typically be expressed through people painting their faces red and white, draping flags over their shoulders, belting out O Canada at random, and wondering in bewilderment at why that "foreign" royalty is in Ottawa. For their own reasons, successive federal governments have eviscerated much of Canadian history in favour of a vacuous concept of the country that's as simple as Tim Horton(')s, hockey, muticulturalism, and maple leaves (in order, I suppose some would argue, to appease angry Quebecers). A columnist in the Ottawa Citizen said in 2007: "The Canada of the government-funded paper flag-waving and painted faces -- the 'new' Canada that is celebrated each year on what is now called 'Canada Day' -- has nothing controversially Canadian about it. You could wave a different flag, and choose another face paint, and nothing would be lost."¹ Seems like the same could be said of what we see in that video.

[ToadBrother]

I've found that, in order to prop up their argument for departing Confederation, Quebec separatists force themselves to reduce Quebec to a caricature of itself; that video is case in point. Of course, Quebec is more than poutine, the Habs, and fleurs-de-lys, and the too often heard "oppressed by les Têtes-carré" whine is unadulterated invention. However, to say otherwise would mean accepting that Quebec's rich history and even its culture - which are what a strong, stable nation needs more than clichés - are inseparably intertwined with Canada's and the common history actually isn't mostly bad. But, acknowledging all the facts hurts the souvereigntist cause; je me souviens (si que c'est seulment ce que je veut souvenir).

More importantly, it forces them to ignore the fact that Montreal exists.

[g_bambino]

More importantly, it forces them to ignore the fact that Montreal exists.

And the First Nations.

[PIK]

Separtists are such idiots and I mean IDIOTS they are so fucking stupid it is pathetic. They suck off france, which did not want anything to do with quebec and traded her away and the only reason french is still strong in quebec is because of the british and canada. But when the royals get here, the separtists will make a mockery out of themselves, the province and the country, I wish they would all die.

[M.Dancer]

It is a geographic term, like the equator.

When the Equator can fill sold out arena for the Maple Leafs, you may have a point...

[bloodyminded]

I can't say, though, that the majority of Canadians are much better. When Canada Day is here in less than two weeks, regard how this celebration will typically be expressed through people painting their faces red and white, draping flags over their shoulders, belting out O Canada at random, and wondering in bewilderment at why that "foreign" royalty is in Ottawa. For their own reasons, successive federal governments have eviscerated much of Canadian history in favour of a vacuous concept of the country that's as simple as Tim Horton(')s, hockey, muticulturalism, and maple leaves

With an undercurrent of triumphalist militarism, an easy way to nod at more "serious" matters of Canadian pride.

[Shwa]

With an undercurrent of triumphalist militarism, an easy way to nod at more "serious" matters of Canadian pride.

It's funny though isn't it - that contrast between the public and private. Kind of like the 'publicity' Christmas gets - necessarily banal when it gets to the national - and public - scope.

There has always been an undercurrent of triumphalist militarism in the Canadian public perspective. Heck, even our 'peacekeepers' got medals and ceremonies and a certain reverence in public.

[August1991]

When the Equator can fill sold out arena for the Maple Leafs, you may have a point...

The "Equator" does more than that. If you look at the number of people on or close to the equator - Singapore, Nairobi, Quito - you're close to a population capable of filling a football arena, which is larger than a hockey arena.

Morris, you object to defining a country by a geographic latitude. Why? What is Canada except the area north of the 49th latitude?

----

PS. Any legitimate definition of "Canada" must include the video of the OP. Otherwise, the definition is pure kitsch.

We Canadians occupy this place called Canada. We live in peace among one another, accept ourselves as we are, and help when we can. We are civilized people.

For myself, I'm comfortable with the equator definition of Canada.

Edited June 26, 2011 by August1991

[Evening Star]

PS. Any legitimate definition of "Canada" must include the video of the OP. Otherwise, the definition is pure kitsch.

Because it doesn't include a mediocre music video?

[Michael Hardner]

Yes, this video represents what nationalism has become in this day and age: a sentimental impression that's supposed to somehow fill in a foundation for an individual's identity.

Well, it's not that for me. I like our approach to things, but I'm from here so I'm not objective.

And I think nation-states should continue exist as long as we have jurisdiction over these laws, but as international bodies and local areas challenge national power from both sides of the spectrum, the idea of a country will one day become only quaint. Kind of like having an affinity for Northern Ontario or the Finger Lakes region. You can have a feeling for a place without having it as part of your identity, or having some kind of duty towards it.

[Molly]

A columnist in the Ottawa Citizen said in 2007: "The Canada of the government-funded paper flag-waving and painted faces -- the 'new' Canada that is celebrated each year on what is now called 'Canada Day' -- has nothing controversially Canadian about it. You could wave a different flag, and choose another face paint, and nothing would be lost."¹

Good article.

[August1991]

Yes, this video represents what nationalism has become in this day and age...

And that's bad?

[jbg]

August...

Go and soft pedal your pseudointellectual Quebec nationalism to the suckers out there who are willing to buy your snow job...

In fact, though, sovereigntism has now been around so long as to have become the mainstream establishment upheld by these kids' parents, which doesn't resonate with many other young Quebecers, and all that video manages to imply is that Quebec is not a country, nor even has the potential to be one, since it is nothing but three clichés and a catch phrase. It is the worst kind of nationalism: tribal and brainless.

[+]

On this issue I thoroughly agree with the two of you. No one is talking about economic viability of a Quebec Libre.

Pearson hit the nail on the head; free Canadians don't need to be liberated.

[Oleg Bach]

August...

Go and soft pedal your pseudointellectual Quebec nationalism to the suckers out there who are willing to buy your snow job...

Why are Quebec songsters all old guys that sound and look the same. Their voices remind me of aging Italian pop heros who all have the tone of a gravel truck with a transmission problem.