$127 Million cut from reservation housing

[cybercoma]

It looks like the Conservatives are shirking their responsibility to the Aboriginal Peoples of Canada by cutting $127 million from housing on reserves. Conditions there are already abysmal, so what is more important than housing that they've decided to spend this money on?

http://aptn.ca/pages/news/2011/06/07/conservatives-cut-127-million-from-on-reserve-housing-liberals/

Toronto Liberal MP and Aboriginal affairs critic Carolyn Bennett said the latest government numbers show that money invested for First Nations reserve housing is hundreds of millions of dollars below 2008 levels.

[Smallc]

2008 levels included money from Canada's Economic Action Plan, didn't it? There was substantial extra money for on reserve housing.

[cybercoma]

2008 levels included money from Canada's Economic Action Plan, didn't it? There was substantial extra money for on reserve housing.

That's what the article indicates.

[Smallc]

That's what the article indicates.

I didn't read the article, so I apologize for that. That said, everything that got money from CEAP doesn't get that money anymore. We have a deficit, and at some point, our recession fighting spending has to end. There's also a point where first national have to start being more accountable with the money they get. You don't have to trust me when I say that what happens on reserves is disgraceful, but it truly is.

[RNG]

I didn't read the article, so I apologize for that. That said, everything that got money from CEAP doesn't get that money anymore. We have a deficit, and at some point, our recession fighting spending has to end. There's also a point where first national have to start being more accountable with the money they get. You don't have to trust me when I say that what happens on reserves is disgraceful, but it truly is.

Yes, what happens on reserves is disgraceful, but isn't it finally time to look ant who's fault it is?

[Michael Hardner]

Yes, what happens on reserves is disgraceful, but isn't it finally time to look ant who's fault it is?

Fault? There is one thing to blame for this?

[cybercoma]

I didn't read the article, so I apologize for that. That said, everything that got money from CEAP doesn't get that money anymore. We have a deficit, and at some point, our recession fighting spending has to end. There's also a point where first national have to start being more accountable with the money they get. You don't have to trust me when I say that what happens on reserves is disgraceful, but it truly is.

I don't doubt that there are band councils that are absolutely appalling. In fact, I know of some pretty disgusting abuses here alone. However, that doesn't change the fact that other Canadians receive funding from municipalities, the province and the federal government, while people living on reserves are funded only by the federal government. They still deserve the same level of services and access as every other Canadian though.

Even if I take your point, and I do, that band councils need to be more accountable for how the money is spent, this doesn't change the fact that conditions on reserves are appalling and the federal government needs to do something about it. If doing something means not shovelling money into the reserves, but focusing on accountability and effectiveness with funds, then they need to just come out and say that. Unfortunately, it just looks like they're trying to cut money from anywhere they can, but most importantly from the people that are not powerful enough to make a difference in the outcome of elections (for myriad reasons, the least of which being their scattered populations).

So, perhaps cutting $127 Million from aboriginal housing is the right decision, but the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs stammering at the question and offering no credible response whatsoever makes it look like their plan doesn't go very far beyond shirking their responsibilities to Aboriginal Canadians.

[cybercoma]

Fault? There is one thing to blame for this?

It's easier to point fingers than to think of multi-faceted approaches to problems.

[Battletoads]

A rare moment where I approve of the Cons actions.

[Battletoads]

I don't doubt that there are band councils that are absolutely appalling. In fact, I know of some pretty disgusting abuses here alone. However, that doesn't change the fact that other Canadians receive funding from municipalities, the province and the federal government, while people living on reserves are funded only by the federal government. They still deserve the same level of services and access as every other Canadian though.

If they want those services a tax would need to be imposed on the inhabitants of the reserve. After all, the rest of us pay taxes to the municipal and provincial governments.

[Smallc]

Yes, what happens on reserves is disgraceful, but isn't it finally time to look ant who's fault it is?

That's my point. It isn't always Ottawa's fault (in fact, it rarely is).

[Smallc]

If doing something means not shovelling money into the reserves, but focusing on accountability and effectiveness with funds, then they need to just come out and say that.

It's hard though, because first nations demand the money and the ability to spend it as they see fit. When Ottawa wants to hold them to account, they say they're being treated like children. At least there is an indication of a start of action from the throne speech, requiring band chief and council to publish their salaries (which are huge, btw).

[RNG]

That's my point. It isn't always Ottawa's fault (in fact, it rarely is).

Amen.

[cybercoma]

If they want those services a tax would need to be imposed on the inhabitants of the reserve. After all, the rest of us pay taxes to the municipal and provincial governments.

They did pay a tax. We built a country on their land and they paid for it with their blood.

[RNG]

We won, they lost. Deal with it.

I'm of Ukrainian heritage. Can I sue all the invaders that trashed my forefather's lands?

[cybercoma]

We won, they lost. Deal with it.

Not very familiar with Canadian history, are you? Or do you skip all the stuff that came before 1867?

Edited June 8, 2011 by cybercoma

[Shwa]

It looks like the Conservatives are shirking their responsibility to the Aboriginal Peoples of Canada by cutting $127 million from housing on reserves. Conditions there are already abysmal, so what is more important than housing that they've decided to spend this money on?

http://aptn.ca/pages/news/2011/06/07/conservatives-cut-127-million-from-on-reserve-housing-liberals/

You see? Here's the problem:

"Conditions there are already abysmal"

Conditions where exactly? Are you extrapolating your limited viewpoint to include all Indian reserves in Canada? Because if you are, then your reasoning is faulty because not all reserves are the same with regard to housing. Surely you are aware of this.

The numbers showed that CMHC spent $282.325 million in 2008-2009, and $156.340 million in 2011-2012.

...

Bennett said the spending may have gone up during the government’s Economic Action Plan stimulus spending, but the latest numbers show that on-reserve housing has been hit with a cut.

Well Carolyn Bennett, what sort of cut was it once the stimulus money was factored out? She says there was a cut, but other than citing gross figures, leaves us with the impression that there was this massive 40% cut. But was there? She - and APTN - could have made a good case by citing the Public Accounts records for the past 10 years and see how the numbers work out. Why didn't they? Surely with their research departments and access to the data either the MP or APTN could have done a modicum of research on this.

[Shwa]

Yes, what happens on reserves is disgraceful, but isn't it finally time to look ant who's fault it is?

I agree. And since you say "what happens on reserves is disgraceful" then we ought to remedy this by giving the Indians back large tracts of treaty lands, let them manage the mineral and natural resources rights to those lands, lease for farming, collect taxes and income from the squatters in the towns and cities, etc. In that way, their condition would likely improve, wouldn't you say RNG?

Let the damned Indians collect the taxes from the large multinational corporations that have been making all those profits off the land for all these years. That would easily replace any pittance like $127 million.

I for one think it is time to stop treating them like children and let them manage their homelands like the rest of us. It will save a bundle on our taxes which - I am sure - the government will pass those savings down to the rest of us. Who knows maybe one day we can ask the Indians for some housing money to fix up our ghettos too. Of course, if we have ghettos, we'll have to look at whose fault it is that we would allow such conditions...

[Oleg Bach]

Money is not the answer to the difficulty that aboriginals have. More money for housing will not make for better housing - It take very little cash to fix a hole in the wall - and a few nails or screws to fix that broken door - pride in personal private ownership is what creates good housing and living conditions - welfare in the forming of reservation housing funds is socialist and does NOT give a native pride in his home - because he does not own it - Ottawa owns it---so why give a shit ---just let the place run down and get drunk...nanny stating aboriginals is totally disrespectful...and respect is the granting of power - no one in politics has fully restored the personal atonomy and power to our native populace - the whites look upon natives as inferiours - when if fact in a natural way they are superiour - for that we detest them.

[Oleg Bach]

We won, they lost. Deal with it.

I'm of Ukrainian heritage. Can I sue all the invaders that trashed my forefather's lands?

My mother was Ukrainian ---and my dad was from Siberia - just north of the Mongolian boarder -----I would like our 2000 acres back please.....no we can't sue....but we can remember and understand that poverty and suffering is almost never brought on by the sufferer..It is inflicted - Nothing more preturbing than those that say "you must take responsiblity for your plight" - mean while those that caused havoc never answer for what they did.

[Topaz]

The Liberlas, progressive conservatives, conservatives and the First Nation are at fault. They made promises but never kept them. Have any of you ever watch the senate committee meeetings when the First Nation are there to speak their views? I did watch back early this early and they told the senate the promise of good drinking water never came.The conservatives promise a school in one area and they didn't deliver. If non-natives don't want the First Nations living and working among them, then at least Canada gave make sure they get the basics in life.

[Moonbox]

I agree. And since you say "what happens on reserves is disgraceful" then we ought to remedy this by giving the Indians back large tracts of treaty lands, let them manage the mineral and natural resources rights to those lands, lease for farming, collect taxes and income from the squatters in the towns and cities, etc. In that way, their condition would likely improve, wouldn't you say RNG?

Yeah making them all instantly wealthy would certainly improve their conditions. While we're at it we should also ban the burning of fossil fuels to save the polar bears.

Or we could just not do that and instead do something that isn't completely idiotic.

[fellowtraveller]

I don't doubt that there are band councils that are absolutely appalling. In fact, I know of some pretty disgusting abuses here alone. However, that doesn't change the fact that other Canadians receive funding from municipalities, the province and the federal government, while people living on reserves are funded only by the federal government. They still deserve the same level of services and access as every other Canadian though.

The game has changed completely in the last 20 years.

Used to be that Indian and Northern Affairs employed a whole slug of engineers, accountants and executives whose jobs were to identify, build, manage, fund all the details of capital projects -like housing- on reserve or band lands.

Now the money is just given to the newly mnted First Nations, who insist on identifying and managing their own money and own projects as any self governing entity would. Some do it better than others. If they choose not to build housing that meets my approval, so be it.

One thing that has not changed is that the bureaucrats who used to have actual tasks at DIAND are still there, though it is unclear what if anything they do now except get paid.

[charter.rights]

The game has changed completely in the last 20 years.

Used to be that Indian and Northern Affairs employed a whole slug of engineers, accountants and executives whose jobs were to identify, build, manage, fund all the details of capital projects -like housing- on reserve or band lands.

Now the money is just given to the newly mnted First Nations, who insist on identifying and managing their own money and own projects as any self governing entity would. Some do it better than others. If they choose not to build housing that meets my approval, so be it.

One thing that has not changed is that the bureaucrats who used to have actual tasks at DIAND are still there, though it is unclear what if anything they do now except get paid.

You also need a current events lesson.

INAC must approve every project when funding is requested by First Nations. They require architects and engineers and consultants be hired BEFORE any of the money is released. Then only guarantees are given and the First Nations must build the infrastructure using bank loans or other types of interim financing BEFORE they receive the cheque.

I know one First Nation who have proposed a water treatment plant and have been embroiled in INAC red tape for about 10 years over it. INAC at first requested a consultant (the first $250,000) to evaluate needs and the size of plant required. After about 3 years of review (and a new government) INAC decided to require a second consultant (this time $750,000) to come up with selections based on the most modern technology available. The estimated cost of the first proposal was around $10 million. The estimated cost of the 2nd proposal is $75 million. INAC now says they don't have the money available for such a high cost of water treatment but insist they will not use the first proposal because it is based on the same system that the rest of Ontario uses. Meanwhile 60% of reserve houses AND the school AND the health and wellness centre don't have access to potable water and have to have water trucked in at a personal cost of about $3500 per year.

The screw up on this one example is totally with the government.

Edited June 9, 2011 by charter.rights

[Shwa]

Yeah making them all instantly wealthy would certainly improve their conditions. While we're at it we should also ban the burning of fossil fuels to save the polar bears.

Or we could just not do that and instead do something that isn't completely idiotic.

You're right, there has to be another way. Hmmmm... what to do? what to do? I got it:

What we should do is force them to assimilate by taking their kids, educating them in special schools to teach them the modern ways of Canada, languages, arts and maths. That should do it.

Oh wait, I forgot you are susceptible to being confused by sarcasm.