The Bible

[betsy]

The Bible should be taught in school because it's a very important historical and philosophical text, and has great influence in the world. More than Shakespeare or Marx obviously. But it shouldn't be in science classes, well, not equally...wouldn't hurt to do a lesson or 2 of alternative theories from religions etc.

Well if a theory is being passed off as fact - that's not "scientific" anymore, is it? If science start limiting itself and is unsure about venturing out of the box - just because some radical atheists decided to ram their own belief down children's throats - that's no longer science. That's religion!

[The_Squid]

Well if a theory is being passed off as fact - that's not "scientific" anymore, is it?

Only if you don't know what the word theory means.

[guyser]

By any chance did you read why I posted that?

Yes, because you want the bible taught in schools. Good luick with that. Thankfully our schools dont teach such tripe unless as an overview of religion(s)

There are many gods, not just one.

Umm....Christian values?

This is an answer to my q where I asked you to show us an example of where parents are overuled in educating their children?

Have to say, its admirable how you try and explain the bible even with all the holes shot in your argument

[GostHacked]

The most common reason I hear - from some of the ex-Christians here - is their disillusionment with the hypocrisy of men.

And a good deal of that comes from the organized religions and their texts. The 10 commandments, one of them tells you love thy neighbor, and in another section, references to killing others who don't follow the rules is the definition of hypocrisy.

A co-worker used her alcoholic Catholic father as the reason who beat the daylights out of them as children whenever he came home drunk. A lot of anger in her when we talk about God or religion.

That had to do with that man being a complete asshole, most likely due to getting beat as a child himself. His religion might have had something to do with it.

Among the younger set, if you dig deeper and peel away, you'd find that the root of their rejection of religion is having to follow rules.

It's actually not following rules that do not make sens.

Let's face it.....Christian laws are not that easy to follow. It means basically giving up most, if not all wordly pleasures. They are the ones that usually welcome the likes of Dawkins.

So hard core Christians are most likely to welcome Dawkins? That does not seem to help your argument.

[GostHacked]

Whether they changed *a lot* or not doesn't matter! What's eventually written in the Bible - that's what matters. And the listed facts are all in there.

So if they change the material in the book, then it DOES matter what was written, and what was revised, and what those changes were.

*wrong* that perhaps they were not supposed to be taken literally? That they were allegories?

So the facts don't matter, details don't matter, just what is written in the book is what matters.

You're focusing on such minor details.....you'll probably even bring up how old Earth is!

Let's go back to page 1 shall we?

[Black Dog]

Whether they changed *a lot* or not doesn't matter! What's eventually written in the Bible - that's what matters. And the listed facts are all in there.

Which edition of the Bible? Even the written version has changed extensively.

That "God stretches the Heaven...." - you call that "vague similarities?" Will you backtrack again and check those out. There are I think at least 3 co-related facts just on that phrase alone that was written 11 times (I think) throughout the Bible! The fact too science emphasized that the "stretching" is the precise description of what's happening.

<seconds later>

*wrong* that perhaps they were not supposed to be taken literally? That they were allegories?

Not *wrong* because some are still in dispute?

Not *wrong* because evidences have not been unearthed....yet? Just like one of the archeological facts listed where-in a Christian archeologist was finally vindicated years after they thought he got it wrong?

So sometimes it's a bang-on description of scientific phenomenon, other times its just a allegory. Terribly convenient.

Anyway, so what if God created the plants first? They're also fully grown and fruit-bearing since He wants to make sure the first man and woman do not starve to death! He is God! He can make it anyway He wants to....He doesn't have to follow the laws of nature! He created the laws!

You're focusing on such minor details.....you'll probably even bring up how old Earth is!

You can't argue with someone so irrational and nutso.

[betsy]

[but what about the stuff they got *wrong*?

-k

Speaking of *wrong*....what about your scientists?

With all their "maybe" and "could be," with all the numerous attempted hoaxes and fraud over the decades, the biased peer reviews, not to mention the unsubstantiated claims that even your prominent Doctor Dawkins had made....still, they haven't got their origin theory right.

They either keep changing....or plugging leaky holes. So full of excuses. Somebody even mentioned aliens from outer space - inspired perhaps by Scientology - as the answer. They believe in aliens too, you know!

Imagine that! With all the hocus-pocus, and still not getting it? Yet look at the Bible. In all its simplicity and endurance over thousands of years.....

Btw, even water! They still hadn't even figured out where all the water came from. Just saw a documentary about asteroids on CBC a couple of weeks ago. It tells about their latest assumption - another "by-sheer-chance" scenario, what else?

They're saying that very rare huge asteroids that probably got some ice inside (which melted because of the close proximity to the sun) probably hit the earth. Now, not only are these floating huge popsicles very rare....but the chances of them hitting the earth is quite rare too!

What's so amusing is that you guys would willingly believe in an assumptive long series of chances that might've happened AND which supposedly coordinated fantastically to create a world so finely tuned, and yet you readily dismiss the idea of Creation or Design - which is actually more plausible than your looooooong series of coordinated chances.

Who is actually trapped in la-la land? Certainly not the Christians.

Edited July 5, 2012 by betsy

[cybercoma]

With all their "maybe" and "could be," with all the numerous attempted hoaxes and fraud over the decades, the biased peer reviews, not to mention the unsubstantiated claims that even your prominent Doctor Dawkins had made....

You ever fly in an airplane or take medication? Or do you travel by magic carpet and wear talismans to ward off disease? Edited July 5, 2012 by cybercoma

[betsy]

double posting.

Edited July 5, 2012 by betsy

[guyser]

Speaking of *wrong*....what about your scientists?

With all their "maybe" and "could be," with all the numerous attempted hoaxes and fraud over the decades,

Oh Betsy Betsy Betsy.....at least theses hoaxes are only decades old, the bible's been a fraud since the day they put pen to paper.

They're saying that very rare huge asteroids that probably got some ice inside (which melted because of the close proximity to the sun) probably hit the earth. Now, not only are these floating huge popsicles very rare....but the chances of them hitting the earth is quite rare too!

What's so amusing is that you guys would willingly believe in an assumptive long series of chances that might've happened AND which supposedly coordinated fantastically to create a world so finely tuned, and yet you readily dismiss the idea of Creation or Design - which is actually more plausible than your looooooong series of coordinated chances.

Who is actually trapped in la-la land? Certainly not the Christians.

Not at all christians, just the foolish ones who make things up....<cough cough>...er Betsy.

See this the problem with discussing w you.

Asteroids didnt probably hit the earth, they most definietly did, and thats a known fact.

You know those swiss cheese holes in the moon we tell our kids about? They are where asteroids hit it.Some of them did in fact have lots of water, they are not never will never will be, popsicles, floating or otherwise.

You probably dont know about the Brent Crater up just past Huntsville (thats north about 2 hrs from Trawna)which is in fact a crater made by an asteroid.

Asteroids are what killed off the Dinosaur...er....they are those creatures that roamed the earth a long long time ago (12 Billion years ago)....long before we even thought about making up something about some God.

[bleeding heart]

The Bible should be taught in school because it's a very important historical and philosophical text,

That most certainly was not Betsy's point. I have no issue whatsoever with Religious Studies, of course.

[Guest American Woman]

BIBLE class. CHRISTIAN class. To be specific.

The Judeo/Christian God is the one and only true God. After all, we're talking origin, aren't we?

Actually, we seem to be talking your beliefs about origin.

I have no problem with teaching about Christianity and the Bible - along with all of the other religions. I think it's a great idea. To single one out - no way. That's not teaching religion - that's teaching only one belief, and there is no place for that in the public schools. Anyone who wants that for their children can send them to the appropriate private school - or to church school.

[Black Dog]

BIBLE class. CHRISTIAN class. To be specific.

The Judeo/Christian God is the one and only true God. After all, we're talking origin, aren't we?

Then we should be teaching Babylonian mythology, the real OG religion.

[GostHacked]

Speaking of *wrong*....what about your scientists?

With all their "maybe" and "could be," with all the numerous attempted hoaxes and fraud over the decades, the biased peer reviews, not to mention the unsubstantiated claims that even your prominent Doctor Dawkins had made....still, they haven't got their origin theory right.

Even the original origin tale in the bible has changed. What do you say to that?

They either keep changing....or plugging leaky holes. So full of excuses. Somebody even mentioned aliens from outer space - inspired perhaps by Scientology - as the answer. They believe in aliens too, you know!

Any leaky hole from your camp is usually filled with 'God did it'. Scientists speculate, but understand they cannot fully know the scope. I thought Jesus taught people to be humble about things. But what do I know, I am just an agnostic/athiest.

Imagine that! With all the hocus-pocus, and still not getting it? Yet look at the Bible. In all its simplicity and endurance over thousands of years.....

Purple monkey dishwasher.

Btw, even water! They still hadn't even figured out where all the water came from. Just saw a documentary about asteroids on CBC a couple of weeks ago. It tells about their latest assumption - another "by-sheer-chance" scenario, what else?

You missed the spectacular show some years about about the Shoemaker Levy 9. Comets and asteroids hitting the planets in our solar system is nothing new and on the cosmic time line, they happen all the time.

They're saying that very rare huge asteroids that probably got some ice inside (which melted because of the close proximity to the sun) probably hit the earth. Now, not only are these floating huge popsicles very rare....but the chances of them hitting the earth is quite rare too!

This planet has been hit thousands and thousands of times by asteroids,meteors, and comets.

What's so amusing is that you guys would willingly believe in an assumptive long series of chances that might've happened AND which supposedly coordinated fantastically to create a world so finely tuned, and yet you readily dismiss the idea of Creation or Design - which is actually more plausible than your looooooong series of coordinated chances.

With recent discoveries of microbial life on Mars, what are your thoughts on that? God did it?

Edited July 6, 2012 by GostHacked

[The_Squid]

What's so amusing is that you guys would willingly believe in an assumptive long series of chances that might've happened AND which supposedly coordinated fantastically to create a world so finely tuned, and yet you readily dismiss the idea of Creation or Design - which is actually more plausible than your looooooong series of coordinated chances.

If something is improbable... unlikely even.... maybe the odds are infinitesimally small.... then the logical conclusion is that GOD did it?

[kimmy]

Whether they changed *a lot* or not doesn't matter! What's eventually written in the Bible - that's what matters. And the listed facts are all in there.

Was the "infallible word of God" the original version that was given to them, or was it the version that they eventually wrote down?

That "God stretches the Heaven...." - you call that "vague similarities?" Will you backtrack again and check those out. There are I think at least 3 co-related facts just on that phrase alone that was written 11 times (I think) throughout the Bible! The fact too science emphasized that the "stretching" is the precise description of what's happening.

So much wrong with this.

First off, "stretching" isn't a precise description of what's happening at all. It's a very imprecise description intended to put an incredibly complex subject into terms that the average person can comprehend.

Second, "stretches" is not the original word that was used. We know this because we know that the verse was not originally written in English, and it has been translated several times since. If I look up Job 9:8 I find that some translations use "stretch" but others use "spread". Did the original word given to the ancient desert mooks mean "spread" like spreading out a blanket, or did it mean "stretch" like stretching out a rubber band? How are we to know?

Job 9:8 says God stretches or spreads out the heavens, and Genesis 1:6-8 tells us that the heavens are a big ceiling that keeps the waters off our heads, so it sounds like they are talking about God stretching out a big canopy in the sky. Not the Big Bang.

Some scientists say the Bible is bang on! Who has more credibility ? Scientists or you - who has this revulsion towards anything or anyone religious?

Which scientists say this? As you're fond of saying, "Cite Your Sources™"

I'm particularly interested to hear which scientists believe it is plausible that the earth and the plants existed before the sun.

Anyway, so what if God created the plants first? They're also fully grown and fruit-bearing since He wants to make sure the first man and woman do not starve to death! He is God! He can make it anyway He wants to....He doesn't have to follow the laws of nature! He created the laws!

You're focusing on such minor details.....you'll probably even bring up how old Earth is!

This isn't a minor detail at all, because it is devastating to the argument you're trying to make.

Why does Genesis say the earth and the plants were made before the sun? That's not an allegory, that's just a flat out blunder. Why did they get it so wrong?

BIBLE class. CHRISTIAN class. To be specific.

The Judeo/Christian God is the one and only true God.

Really? Cite your sources™.

-k

[Moonlight Graham]

Sort of like Abraham Lincoln being born in a log cabin he build with his own hands?

[betsy]

And a good deal of that comes from the organized religions and their texts. The 10 commandments, one of them tells you love thy neighbor, and in another section, references to killing others who don't follow the rules is the definition of hypocrisy.

But of course you have to understand the whole context of those references.

That had to do with that man being a complete asshole, most likely due to getting beat as a child himself. His religion might have had something to do with it.

He could've been bullied probably, because of his religion. Who knows? Not you or I.

So hard core Christians are most likely to welcome Dawkins? That does not seem to help your argument.

I was talking about ex-Christians.

[betsy]

Actually, we seem to be talking your beliefs about origin.

Yes. And we're also talking about atheists' belief on origin. If evolution is being taught in school, Christian belief and/or belief in Designer should also be taught.

I have no problem with teaching about Christianity and the Bible - along with all of the other religions. I think it's a great idea. To single one out - no way. That's not teaching religion - that's teaching only one belief, and there is no place for that in the public schools. Anyone who wants that for their children can send them to the appropriate private school - or to church school.

Of course I'm singling out Christianity and ignoring all the rest. Why? You're in the very topic why. The reason is at the core of all these arguments in this topic. Backtrack and review.

Edited July 11, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

If something is improbable... unlikely even.... maybe the odds are infinitesimally small.... then the logical conclusion is that GOD did it?

With all the arguments/reasons I've given in this topic, yes....to an open-minded thinker it's more plausible that a Designer - which in the Christian belief is actually God - did it!

[betsy]

Was the "infallible word of God" the original version that was given to them, or was it the version that they eventually wrote down?

So much wrong with this.

First off, "stretching" isn't a precise description of what's happening at all. It's a very imprecise description intended to put an incredibly complex subject into terms that the average person can comprehend.

Second, "stretches" is not the original word that was used. We know this because we know that the verse was not originally written in English, and it has been translated several times since. If I look up Job 9:8 I find that some translations use "stretch" but others use "spread". Did the original word given to the ancient desert mooks mean "spread" like spreading out a blanket, or did it mean "stretch" like stretching out a rubber band? How are we to know?

Job 9:8 says God stretches or spreads out the heavens, and Genesis 1:6-8 tells us that the heavens are a big ceiling that keeps the waters off our heads, so it sounds like they are talking about God stretching out a big canopy in the sky. Not the Big Bang.

Which scientists say this? As you're fond of saying, "Cite Your Sources"

I'm particularly interested to hear which scientists believe it is plausible that the earth and the plants existed before the sun.

This isn't a minor detail at all, because it is devastating to the argument you're trying to make.

Why does Genesis say the earth and the plants were made before the sun? That's not an allegory, that's just a flat out blunder. Why did they get it so wrong?

Really? Cite your sources.

-k

Backtrack and read. Most, if not all of your rebutts have all been discussed. You're just rehashing.

Better yet, review Genesis. For all your talk about *studying,* it's amazing how you could've missed it.

Edited July 11, 2012 by betsy

[The_Squid]

With all the arguments/reasons I've given in this topic, yes....to an open-minded thinker it's more plausible that a Designer - which in the Christian belief is actually God - did it!

ummm... no. Not to an "open-minded thinker". It takes a fundamentalist Christian to believe that actually. Which is fine. But don't pretend that you are something else... you aren't fooling anyone.

[cybercoma]

Yes. And we're also talking about atheists' belief on origin.

People don't have any particular beliefs on origin if they are atheist. All atheist means is that they don't believe in a supernatural deity.

[GostHacked]

People don't have any particular beliefs on origin if they are atheist. All atheist means is that they don't believe in a supernatural deity.

I am still looking for a church where athiests gather, so I can attend. Celebrate our 'religion' together.

[cybercoma]

I am still looking for a church where athiests gather, so I can attend. Celebrate our 'religion' together.

It's the Church of Reality.