US burn Koran, 14 killed in retaliation

[Scotty]

No. It's neighbor. You're mis-spelling it as well.

We learned in school that Americans were all about "I" and didn't care about "U" and so refused to use it in any of their words.

[bush_cheney2004]

Right. And the Soviets were in Afghanistan protecting the "rights of citizens of free nations" just like the Americans were in Vietnam protecting the "rights of citizens of free nations" a couple of decades earlier."

Yet they were to some degree...I met the so called "Boat People" who did not want to live under communist rule. Go ask them yourself instead of spouting you usual uninformed claptrap.

Wake me up when that refrain becomes remotely believable.

No...keep right on sleeping...just as always.

In the meantime some schmuck in Florida has proven that Muslim extremists are extreme. We could have figured that out without the unnecessary death or risk, don't you think?

I knew that before the pastor's actions in Florida, which changed nothing. General Petraeus can condemn his actions while continuing to bomb civilians, which Afghans don't mind in the least compared to burning Qu'ran's in Florida, right?

[bush_cheney2004]

We learned in school that Americans were all about "I" and didn't care about "U" and so refused to use it in any of their words.

That's true....there were specific measures taken in education to purposely diverge from the hated British (and by association, Canadians). Today we call it Hip-Hop.

[Guest American Woman]

At least some of us here can admit that.

Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. You're not the only one who admits it, and some do it graciously.

[Guest American Woman]

Fine form there AW. You object to the title that generalizes about a nation, yet have no problem generalizing about the adherents to a religion. I am glad you have this indelible insight, so now can you show me the evidence that "they" don't respect "our" religion?

I object on the grounds that those who object to generalizing about Muslims regarding this incident have no objection to generalizing about the US in this incident. Clearly that's the point I was making. The fact that we are infidels is proof that they don't respect our religion. Furthermore, I don't expect them to. Why is everyone obligated to respect everyone else's beliefs? Tolerance and respect are two different things.

BTW - I really don't give a crap if "they" want to duke it out among themselves, it's good for business. But what is bad for business is inciting "them" to want to kill more of our soldiers, UN workers, aid workers, peaceful religioous people, moderates, etc. It's not like we don't have a bunch of young men and women over there who will utlimately pay the price is it?

So you're saying that every time a Koran is burned, people are going to be killed? And you criticize me for simply saying they don't respect our religion? This is the double standard that I'm referring to. And again, other people's feelings aren't taken into consideration when other similar acts are carried out and it wouldn't be tolerated, blamed on the person who did nothing illegal, if this were any other group/religion/race/et al than Muslims. We are to walk on eggshells where Muslims are concerned. And things will eventually change .... how?? They're not going to change as long as everyone thinks their feelings need to be tiptoed around. We'll always be the ones who are wrong, the one's needing to change behavior that's just fine to apply to everyone else.

Furthermore, the troops are over there fighting for our freedoms. A great way to have prevented that all together would have been to just give in completely to what "they" want. I really would like to hear from Army Guy or moderate american about this.

Edited April 4, 2011 by American Woman

[Shwa]

Yet they were to some degree...I met the so called "Boat People" who did not want to live under communist rule. Go ask them yourself instead of spouting you usual uninformed claptrap

.

How about all the dead people at My Lai, whose "freedom" was being protected then B-C? Were some of their relatives among those "Boat People" you fondly recall? Oh wait, dead men (and women and children)tell no tales isn't that true?

No...keep right on sleeping...just as always.

Yawn. Nope, still not even remotely believable even spouted by a self-proclaimed expert like you.

I knew that before the pastor's actions in Florida, which changed nothing. General Petraeus can condemn his actions while continuing to bomb civilians, which Afghans don't mind in the least compared to burning Qu'ran's in Florida, right?

No, Afghans don't mind being bombed at all.

[GostHacked]

Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. You're not the only one who admits it, and some do it graciously.

No chance of being gracious when dealing with certain individuals on this board, based on the replies I got when I posted something wrong. I spent a good hour going through the mosque thread to see why and when I was wrong, which was about 170 pages too long.

[Guest American Woman]

No chance of being gracious when dealing with certain individuals on this board, based on the replies I got when I posted something wrong. I spent a good hour going through the mosque thread to see why and when I was wrong, which was about 170 pages too long.

I provided proof that you were wrong. In this thread. In response to your claim/post. Which I'd already addressed the first time it was brought up. And the second time. And the third.......

But yeah, blame me for making you be ungracious. It's my fault.

Edited April 4, 2011 by American Woman

[bush_cheney2004]

.

How about all the dead people at My Lai, whose "freedom" was being protected then B-C? Were some of their relatives among those "Boat People" you fondly recall? Oh wait, dead men (and women and children)tell no tales isn't that true?

What about them? Your diversion does not change the reality for many others happier to escape and languish in a Philippine refugee camp compared to your resignation.

Yawn. Nope, still not even remotely believable even spouted by a self-proclaimed expert like you.

I don't have to be an expert...just awake far longer than you. Keep snoozing....

No, Afghans don't mind being bombed at all.

But they really really really hate Qu'rans being burned in Florida far more...right?

[DogOnPorch]

BC-2004: What about them? Your diversion does not change the reality for many others happier to escape and languish in a Philippine refugee camp compared to your resignation.

My Lai/Son My was a criminal act by certain members of Charlie Company of 1st Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment, 11th Brigade, 23rd Infantry Division. Other members refused to participate and others tried to stop it. It was not American policy by any means.

Similar brutal acts were conducted by NVA/VC forces that naturally didn't get the air time that this event did.

Either way, Calley was convicted...not given a medal.

[scouterjim]

Anyone hear this? A pastor from Florida reportedly burned the Koran (Islamic holy book) last month and it's just appeared on the news just now that Afghan protestors have raided a UN building and killed at least 14 people.

Honestly, American Christians can be just as crazy as Muslims when it comes to religion. Why the fuck would you burn someones holy book? If you can't see it would have horrific repercussions then you're an idiot.

Thus proving the idiocy of religious zealots, be they Christian or Muslim.

[Shwa]

I object on the grounds that those who object to generalizing about Muslims regarding this incident have no objection to generalizing about the US in this incident. Clearly that's the point I was making.

So what you are saying that sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander and that one poorly formed argument requires another to illustrate? I can go for that. So long as the absurdity of it all is clear.

The fact that we are infidels is proof that they don't respect our religion. Furthermore, I don't expect them to. Why is everyone obligated to respect everyone else's beliefs? Tolerance and respect are two different things.

First of all, I am not sure how you are equating "infidel" with lack of respect:

Infidel - Merriam-Webster

Please note that this is a Western term that applied equally to Christians.

So you're saying that every time a Koran is burned, people are going to be killed?

Strawman, I said no such thing. Thus:

And you criticize me for simply saying they don't respect our religion? This is the double standard that I'm referring to. And again, other people's feelings aren't taken into consideration when other similar acts are carried out and it wouldn't be tolerated, blamed on the person who did nothing illegal, if this were any other group/religion/race/et al than Muslims.

We are to walk on eggshells where Muslims are concerned.

No, we are to be careful and prudent where our soldiers, civilians and aid workers are concerned. Did you not get that part? Otherwise, why not just hand them our battle plans and give them a sporting chance.

And things will eventually change .... how?? They're not going to change as long as everyone thinks their feelings need to be tiptoed around. We'll always be the ones who are wrong, the one's needing to change behavior that's just fine to apply to everyone else.

"feelings need to be tipted around?" If I recall correctly it was only a few years ago that flag burning was close to being law in the US.

So I am sure you'll excuse Muslim extremists to be extreme when their holy book is burned as a symbol of free speech in the USA. Please note, however, that the Muslim inifdels in, say, Chicago didn't kill anyone. Why is that I wonder.

Furthermore, the troops are over there fighting for our freedoms. A great way to have prevented that all together would have been to just give in completely to what "they" want. I really would like to hear from Army Guy or moderate american about this.

The troops were in Vietnam fighting for "freedoms" too and eventually the Vietnemese got what "they" wanted. Coincidentally that is when the killing of American troops effectively stopped. I wonder if the same phenomenon will occur when we pull out of Afghanistan?

[Shwa]

What about them? Your diversion does not change the reality for many others happier to escape and languish in a Philippine refugee camp compared to your resignation.

But many more - the vast majority - didn't. Your noble sentiment is wholly underwhelming when it comes to the facts.

I don't have to be an expert...just awake far longer than you. Keep snoozing....

I shall because so far you have done nothing but spout the same old, tired, party line. If people wait long enough you'll equate your moral position based on the possession of military hardware. Been there, read that. Yawn.

But they really really really hate Qu'rans being burned in Florida far more...right?

Why not fly in to Kabul and ask a few?

[Rue]

We learned in school that Americans were all about "I" and didn't care about "U" and so refused to use it in any of their words.

Well we did not. So which "we" are you referring to? whatever I learned about Americans was from travelling to the U.S. and talking to them or trying to learn about their history. All joking aside some of us do have the

ability not to stereotype an entire people negatively because of one or two fools who can be found in any country including ours.

As for JBG not knowing how to spell, while Americans do have problems with their spelling and pronouncing Zed wrong or Zebra wrong and spelling through-way thru-way I would state as a neighbour I could not think of better ones.

The fact they have Yankees fans or Philadelphia fans of any kind is a problem but these things are manageable.

When in Filly you just need to say something like Mike Schmidt is my cousin and yer fine.

Seriously the American bashing is pointless. It makes some people feel self righteous but not moi. If I don't like an American its for the same reason I don't like anyone else. Their being American is not the issue.

Unless of course they try tell me Sarah Palin is swell then I say, find out who Rita McNeil is because if you vote her in, we are sending Rita down to eat her.

[bush_cheney2004]

"feelings need to be tipted around?" If I recall correctly it was only a few years ago that flag burning was close to being law in the US.

This doesn't make any sense...perhaps you meant a ban on flag burning? Flags are disposed of by burning..as are Qu'rans.

I wonder if the same phenomenon will occur when we pull out of Afghanistan?

Depends on what you mean by "we"....and when.

[Rue]

That's true....there were specific measures taken in education to purposely diverge from the hated British (and by association, Canadians). Today we call it Hip-Hop.

Now that was funny.

[Shwa]

This doesn't make any sense...perhaps you meant a ban on flag burning? Flags are disposed of by burning..as are Qu'rans.

Yes, the flag burning laws.

Depends on what you mean by "we"....and when.

What do you think I mean by "we?"

[bush_cheney2004]

But many more - the vast majority - didn't. Your noble sentiment is wholly underwhelming when it comes to the facts.

The facts are that millions of South Vietnamese and others resisted and fought the communists for many years, instead of rolling over like you obviously would have done.

I shall because so far you have done nothing but spout the same old, tired, party line. If people wait long enough you'll equate your moral position based on the possession of military hardware. Been there, read that. Yawn.

I don't have a moral position..that is your quaint specialty. How's it working for 'ya?

Why not fly in to Kabul and ask a few?

Because I am an infidel....it might make them angrier than dropping laser guided bombs on their houses.

Edited April 4, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest American Woman]

So what you are saying that sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander and that one poorly formed argument requires another to illustrate? I can go for that. So long as the absurdity of it all is clear.

Since pointing out the absurdity of it all is aimed at y'all, glad you can go for it.

First of all, I am not sure how you are equating "infidel" with lack of respect:

Infidel - Merriam-Webster

Please note that this is a Western term that applied equally to Christians.

So what if it applies equally to Christians? I said we are under no obligation to respect other's beliefs, that there's a difference between "respect" and tolerance. So I equate lack of respect with infidel because of the way/context in which it is used. And I say, so what if that's how anyone from any religion feels about another religion? I repeat. We are under no obligation to respect other's beliefs. There are many beliefs from all religions that I don't respect. So if that pastor showed disrespect for Islam, so what?

Strawman, I said no such thing. Thus:

Yeah, basically you did say that. Way to avoid responding to it though.

No, we are to be careful and prudent where our soldiers, civilians and aid workers are concerned. Did you not get that part? Otherwise, why not just hand them our battle plans and give them a sporting chance.

I have no idea what you're on about here. What in God's name do "battle plans" have to do with walking on eggshells, not exercising our freedoms, because of the sensibilities of others? But again, you seem to be saying "don't say anything to piss them off or we'll all pay the price." You can deny that you said that, too, but it's exactly what you're saying. Piss off some Muslims, prepare for riots and loss of life.

"feelings need to be tipted around?" If I recall correctly it was only a few years ago that flag burning was close to being law in the US.

I'm assuming you mean that banning flag burning was close to being the law. Now I ask you, if it had been made a law in the U.S., would that mean the rest of the world couldn't/shouldn't burn our flag?? That they would be criticized if they did? Of course not. No one cared about our sensibilities when they burned our flag. It was their right to do so, and plenty of people have exercised that right.

So I am sure you'll excuse Muslim extremists to be extreme when their holy book is burned as a symbol of free speech in the USA. Please note, however, that the Muslim inifdels in, say, Chicago didn't kill anyone. Why is that I wonder.

You really have to wonder?? Because they know better. They know no one would come to their defense. No one would make excuses for them.

The troops were in Vietnam fighting for "freedoms" too and eventually the Vietnemese got what "they" wanted. Coincidentally that is when the killing of American troops effectively stopped. I wonder if the same phenomenon will occur when we pull out of Afghanistan?

Yeah, I'm sure that will happen; unless American troops happen to be among the civilians they target and kill.

[Rue]

Shwa you know I respect you and others I debate on this forum I don't always agree with. On this one though all I am saying is its too easy to American bash. It does not deal with the issue.

The fact is the pastor is responsible for his actions as are the Muslim clergy who incite their followers. Both sets of clergy are responsible for their words. Therein lies the irony. They both engage in the exact same hatred and intolerance. They are mirror images of one another with both trying to blame the other for their own actions.

They make mockeries of both their religions. To me I just see fool humans. I don't see Christians or Muslims I just see stupid humans with the same colour and results after they are killed and mutilated in the name of God.

Neither speaks for anyone but themselves. I know you know what I mean. I am not here to suggest the U.S. is perfect or better then Afghanistan or anyone else. But in that same vain I am not here to say Canada is better than the U.S. or anyone else or I am. We are all just shmucks if you ask me with the equal potential to kill each other and lower ourselves to primal stupidity.

Its epidemic and endemic in all humans.

For me as a Canadian whose grandparents escaped here to get away from religious persecution it was very ironic to see the country we escaped to was built on certain injustices, i.e., its history with aboriginals. I mean for me its a perspective where Canada has given me everything my ancestors dreamed of while the original Canadians still remain disenfranchised so I can see the two dimensions or experiences at the same time.

I can look at what is bad with the US but also see its good as I do Canada is all I am saying.

I just think we Canadians have found it too fashionable to bash Americans-to me that is intellectually lazy and we are in no position to criticize anyone in the sense that we are not perfect. On the other hand while the modest part in me says dont' gloat about Canada and think we are better then the U.S. or others, part of me is still eternally grateful I am here and proud-its just I show it in a non boastful way and a modest way that acknowledges those who died so I could live free while at the same time recognizing those who were displaced by our society.

There's a balancing act is what I am saying. If Americans are evil then what I am saying is so are we Canadians for the same reasons. Let's not pretend we do not have the same moral weaknesses. We do. We screw things up in some ways and we do good in others.

Me I could not live in a Muslim theocracy but I sure as hell couldn't live in the one the Pastor envisions either. either way they would both burn something on my lawn. I don't kid myself. I also don't fool myself into forgetting the very intolerance I hate in both sides of this putrid display still prevail in a more subtle undertone in Canada with our aboriginals. We don't burn anything anymore but we still have a lot of treaties we tried to burn to deal with.

We are not righteous. We are built on the turmoil of others no different then anyone else.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Rue

[bush_cheney2004]

What do you think I mean by "we?"

Hell if I know....you can't be hatin' on Americans exercising their constitutional rights then wanting to be in the same bathtub whenever it suits 'ya. Life would be so much simpler for you without those goddamn Americans around.

[ToadBrother]

So says The Vatican...

Being Protestant,I'm not beholden to the edicts of their CEO(let's call him a Pope) and their Board of Directors (let's call them The Magisterium)...

Sola Scriptura reigns supreme!!!

I wasn't aware there were that many Protestant churches that actually bought into Sola Scriptura? Has all of Augustine's warnings gone out the window now?

[ToadBrother]

The fact is the pastor is responsible for his actions as are the Muslim clergy who incite their followers. Both sets of clergy are responsible for their words. Therein lies the irony. They both engage in the exact same hatred and intolerance. They are mirror images of one another with both trying to blame the other for their own actions.

Well, not quite. The pastor's followers haven't been seen beheading any UN workers that I'm aware of.

[WIP]

No, only the blacks

And Voo-Doo

Racist bastard! They would have been better off without the meddling of evangelists fomenting hysteria and telling them all they have to do to get rich is to pray for money:

African churches denounce children as ‘witches’ Pastors accuse thousands of children, leading to torture or death

American connections to African witchhunts

January 10, 2011 Exporting Fundamentalist Christianity to Ghana

You think there's a security at the airports watching out for Evangelical terrorists?

Terrorism is asymmetrical warfare perpetrated by combatants who do not have large armies with the latest military technology. Right now, the U.S. faces a greater terrorist threat from right wing extremist groups and militias, most of which are populated with self-proclaimed Christians. They just go after different targets than the foreign terrorists. The Iraq War veteran who designed and built the backpack bomb that failed to go off during the MLK Day march in Seattle is every bit as much a terrorist as someone from Al Qaeda. But I guess that's okay with you because his intended victims were blacks and liberals who joined the march.

But the most dangerous Christian threat is not from the Christian Identity Movement, but are the Christian dominionists, who are already on the side of money and power across the border, mostly in the Republican Party, and are trying to further entrench themselves and turn the U.S. Army into a Christian army.

The Rise of Evangelical Associations in the Military

Organizations like the Officers Christian Fellowship (OFC), The Military Ministry of the Campus Crusade for Christ, the Fellowship of Christian Athletes (FCA), and the Christian Military Fellowship (CMF) encourage soldiers to proselytize as their primary mission in the military. A representative mission statement is at the official OFC website. OCF states, "Our purpose is to glorify God by uniting Christian officers for biblical fellowship and outreach, equipping and encouraging them to minister effectively in the military society."

* They intend to transform the "entire military society" into one that is a "community of believers with a passion for [a Christian] God and compassion for the entire military society."

* They also "call on Christian officers to integrate biblical standards of excellence into their professional responsibilities."

* They think that "local or ship-based chapel activities offer prime venues for Christ-centered outreach and service to a military community. OCF acknowledges the chaplain's responsibility for and authority in local Command Religious Programs. Thus, we support chapel-sponsored and workplace ministry activities through prayer, encouragement, and participation. By cooperating with and assisting chaplains and lay leaders, we seek to exalt the Lord Jesus Christ throughout the entire military society."

http://www.secular.org/issues/chaplains/position

Onward Christian soldiers!

[WIP]

The comparison isn't really ideal. Yes, you can occasionally get a crowd of savages to attack someone or something. Witches are burned in Africa fairly frequently, as an example. And there are occasional deadly riots in India, as well. But only Muslims seem to take murderous umbrage at minor events happening half a world away in places they've never even heard of before.

They've got American soldiers patrolling their streets in armored vehicles, they get searched when they get to a checkpoint, homes are searched, bombs are dropped from American drones flying overhead, but for some reason you don't think they know who Americans are or connect the Occupation with the story of the Quran burning!

And this is a problem for us to worry about also, because our present government is stupid enough to just march lock-step with U.S. foreign policy...so, if the next mob goes on a rampage looking for Americans, Canadian soldiers could be just as easily targeted.