bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 That's already been tried. New Jersey raised taxes significantly for 10 years in a row. Their situation didn't improve. All they managed to do was drive businesses and individuals out of the state. Raising taxes can't make up for the pyramid scheme of public sector union pensions and benefits. Right you are....it's not rocket science. This is the end of the line for growth in the upward tax and spend spiral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 1.Not in your non-union/free market paradise...I would get paid less... Again, the amount you get paid does not matter as much as what your relative wealth is...and in a free market economy, where you keep most if not all of what you earn, and where competitiveness reigns...the cost of living is greatly reduced, and even while nominally you make less - in terms of purchasing power and wealth, you have more. In your free market there are jobs for everyone...I'l bet!!Extremely low paying ones to increase shareholder value...Because we have to be "competative" and increase "productivity" to forward our "freedom",right?.. You're still not getting it. Of course in a free market there'd be extremely low paying jobs. Not everyone's level of skill, aptitude, work ethic, overall value of labour is the same - and people would be paid commensurate to what they offer. Is it really ethical to expect all taxpayers to pay for salaries and benefits that go to workers who don't deserve to earn that amount...and with little oversight to boot? All part of your upward wealth redistribution excercise...No thanks... Right, because that's not the society we live in now? Give me a break. 2.Check out the corporate aparatchiks behind the "Right to Work" movement and then ask yourself if those really have individual workers rights in the workplace at heart,OR,if RTW is simply a way to "regain the balance" in the power and control dynamic in the workplace... Another argument in favour of a free market economy. In a free market it won't matter what the corporate management intentions are...it'd be sink-or-swim...no promises of government bailouts, no subsidies...they'd have to get by from their profits alone. That means providing customers with a quality product at a competitive price. Doing so would require hiring and keeping good workers...if they choose to treat workers poorly or pay less than their labour is worth, they'll go to a competitor and that company could face bankruptcy because it focused more on "power and control" (to use your words) than on quality, and good practices. Interestingly,look at RTW advocate groups,COLLECTIVELY,advocating for such things...It's kind of illuminating about the duplicitous nature of RTW... Yes, trying to get out of debt is terribly evil. 3.Union certification should never be "up to the company"...It's a collective decision made by the workers of that comapny.... In the private sector I'm with you...but when its taxpayers paying for pay and benefits, there should be no "collective bargaining" (a.k.a. union-based extortion) involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Yes...the topic is Wisconsin. Try to get your anti-American rants into the right topic. Only if you can keep your Anti-Canadian rants to the appropriate topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 That's already been tried. New Jersey raised taxes significantly for 10 years in a row. Their situation didn't improve. All they managed to do was drive businesses and individuals out of the state. Raising taxes can't make up for the pyramid scheme of public sector union pensions and benefits. You really want to go back to the New Jersey argument? The first time I showed a cite where you were mistaken you stopped talking about it. In fact, with regard to New Jersey and its public sector pensions, the big issue is that the employees have been making their contributions for years while the New Jersey government failed to do so. It not only didn't pay ANYTHING into the pension plan but it was using the contributions from the employees to pay pensioners! So after paying essentially NOTHING for their public employee pensions you're going to tell me they had to increase taxes ten years in a row because of employee pensions and benefits?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Ah the nirvana of a free market economy. No reason to make sweatshops illegal in a free market economy is there. there's plenty of other jobs that workers could get. And naturally when all those sweatshops lose their employees to better paying, safer jobs the sweat shop owners will change their ways, cause that's how a free market works. There's a reason communism failed - it is a political system that completely ignored human nature. so why not have an economic system that exploits all the most wonderful aspects of human nature like greed, dominance, territoriality, etc. That's gotta be successful for everyone. If someone starts up a business as a means of earning a lot of money (i.e. greed), and in so doing employs people would might otherwise be unemployed, what's the harm? If a business expands in a free market because it's goal is dominance...more jobs are created, more innovation is realized, products are offered for less, and the quality of said product improves...how is any of that a bad thing? The typical reaction by those on the left to the idea of a free market is to throw up failed experiments (i.e. communism) to look at as harbingers, and then draw on emotional responses to provocative buzzwords (greed, dominance, etc)as a means of discrediting what's obviously a logical solution to government overreach. Congrats on fitting in with the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 I note you would rather dismiss than engage... Not shocking because I've dealt with your kind before... Kudos for hitting the "freedom" canard,though! Gerry Nichols just called... He said to stop impersonating him... I'm engaged...I'm right here...but you continually confuse a free market economy with what's happening around us today. You've somehow gotten it into your head that to be pro freedom must mean anti worker when just the opposite is the case. I've refuted pretty much every anti-free market point you've made...how much more "engaged" would you like me to be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 I don't recall any public servants threatening to walkout in this particular case. As I have mentioned previously there is a process laid out in The Wisconsin Labour Code and you would be well advised to read it. I don't need to read the Wisconsin Labor Code to understand why public sector unions are a damaging entity. I don't need to read the entire Patriot Act to know it needs to be repealed, do you? I don't need to read the entire NAFTA agreement to know that it stinks to high heaven. Do you? The teachers in WI can and will strike if their union is not given the concessions any union expects come contract renewal time. Do you really need to read an onerous book of legalese to figure that concept out? Union workers strike...they hold out for more...it's been done for a long time. And I argue it should not be an option for those being paid by taxpayers...it amounts to extortion. I believe you have been challenged on several occasions to provide the necessary proof regarding your strawman argument on sustainability. I don't recall you producing such information. Are you new? The US is in the middle of a massive debt crisis and Wisconsin is not immune...they're bleeding red ink all over the place. In the face of that crisis, it is unsustainable to keep giving raises to those who are being paid by an ever more indebted entity. That's not conjecture...there is a debt crisis...it is happening...no amount of ignoring it will change that. I don't need to give you proof that there's a problem, by now it should be apparent to you and everyone else with a pulse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Funny how the United States had a budgetary surplus under Clinton. Then Bush came in and cut taxes. Suddenly there was a big budget deficit! And you've had one ever since, as every Republican politician cries "Vote for me and I'll cut taxes!" Anyone want to laugh? This is from 2000 President Clinton today projected that the United States will have a $1.9 trillion budget surplus over the next decade. He said the increase in the expected surplus means the government will be debt-free by 2010. ABC Chalk that one up to Lieberman, without him Gore would have won (he did anyway, but that's history and another story) and it would be a far better world today... Thank you, thank you very much... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 60% of their entire budget goes to pay wages and, benefits and pensions. Government doesn't have an endless supply of money. If the government goes bankrupt all the union contracts will be void and the government can then tear them up. I'm surethe unions don't want this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Chalk that one up to Lieberman, without him Gore would have won (he did anyway, but that's history and another story) and it would be a far better world today... Gore didn't even win his home state. It had nothing to do with Lieberman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/whats-happening-wisconsin-explained If the uber-left Mother Jones mag is correct, and what the WI governor is doing is all just a political game, then he is just as clueless as the rest. If the civil servants who comprise the police, and other public safety unions think they are immune from the cutting...they have another thing coming. I don't advocate ending just the teacher's public sector union...I advocate ending all public sector unions as I've said from the start. If the governor is that short-sighted to only target one public sector union, then he's an idiot and he deserves to be impeached. The Democrats who are fighting to keep the unions in play? They're rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic...they just don't realize the iceberg's already been hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Gore didn't even win his home state. It had nothing to do with Lieberman. If I differ with that opinion would you be upset? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 "Right, because in the current economy they have so many other job opportunities busting down their door? You take the work where you can get it today...very few have the luxury of picking and choosing union-job or non-union job...when you're in debt up to your eyeballs, a job's a job." Are you in debt? Of course I am...very few people aren't in today's economy. But I don't worry about it as some failing of virtue, I recognize debt has become a necessary evil for most people in the face of an ever-rising cost of living that comes with over-reaching government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 ....If the civil servants who comprise the police, and other public safety unions think they are immune from the cutting...they have another thing coming. They don't mind the cutting as much...this is the curious nature of union "brotherhood"....employment death by seniority, not merit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 If I differ with that opinion would you be upset? Nope...cause Gore beat himself either way. And now he is an international clown for global warming climate change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Nope...cause Gore beat himself either way. And now he is an international clown for global warming climate change. Jealous? Not that I blame you... Nobel Prize, successful film maker, author, public speaker... Not bad as a consolation prize... He may even be GLAD he lost, the rest of the world maybe not so much... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Explain what??? Are you so obtuse as to not be able to see the larger issue of getting RTW legislation through the back door in Free Collective Bargaining states???... The Ohio governor admitted as much yesterday... What larger issue...trying to reduce debt by reducing the size of government? I'm all for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 One further question. Did you receive a public education? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Yes. In what Country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Wrong... That's far to focused... It might be issue at the moment,but's a much larger one,if the Mother Jones article about who is backing Mr.Walker is even remotely true... The Koch Bros. and there COLLECTIVE free market proponent groups like the CATO Institute (there's at least 3 or 4 other ones).. I hope Mr. Walker is successful, but I hope he recognizes all public sector unions must be broken. I doubt that going after collective bargianing rights AFTER the union has said they will discuss financials has anything to do with a budget crisis.This fight is ideological,but it's not just about the public sector unions at all.... Well no, it is about whether you believe in the good of the nanny-State or you don't. A union willing to discuss financials means going into the books wielding a scalpel where only a machete will do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 And is he a supporter of the WRAP party in Alberta and does he live there? I am not a supporter of the Wildrose Alliance...and yes, I do live in Alberta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Because he's probably at work using the National Citizens Coalition's computers... I'm fine with answering questions, but I am responding to a lot of posts here, and as I'm sure you do...I have a life outside this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 What larger issue...trying to reduce debt by reducing the size of government? I'm all for it. I'm sorry...You're simply far too obtuse to understand... This is definately NOT just about breaking public sector unions at all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Signed contract or not...the entire idea of civil servants being allowed to collectively bargain invites the kind of inefficiency, wasteful spending, and conflict we're seeing now. It doesn't have to be this way, nor logically should it be. Prove it. I'm still waiting for an economic argument on this after so many pages. And, yes, fairness has everything to do with it. You yourself speak of "worth" as if there is some justice involved in the wage that two parties negotiate. Economics makes no sense without a fair legal system on which it's founded - honouring contracts for example would be something quite important in such a system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubberMiley Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 My favourite part of the Walker prank phone call was when the fake Koch suggested planting trouble-makers in the crowd. "We thought of that." he says. How do you ever recover from that politically? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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