Raising the US debt ceiling

[Oleg Bach]

Raising taxes will do nothing to improve the situtation. You could raise taxes by a hundred fold and America would not catch up or even come close to balancing the budget. This is the natural state of that nation. They will have to continue borrowing to the bitter end. America functions on credit..on the citizen level - to the governmental level--it's the natural culture that has existed for the last 50 years. The wealth is artifical and artifically generated - face reality and understand that reality has no place in this game.

[punked]

Raising taxes will do nothing to improve the situtation. You could raise taxes by a hundred fold and America would not catch up or even come close to balancing the budget. This is the natural state of that nation. They will have to continue borrowing to the bitter end. America functions on credit..on the citizen level - to the governmental level--it's the natural culture that has existed for the last 50 years. The wealth is artifical and artifically generated - face reality and understand that reality has no place in this game.

Come on. Seriously you are part of the problem. You have no idea how math works. Here Krugman sets it out in back and white for you.

http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2011/07/15/opinion/15krugman.html

[William Ashley]

*tagged*

I'm really anxious to see what happens with this....

will look back in a week.

All I got to say that I support the Republican Motion for a "balanced" budget.. amendment to the constitution however I think that California falling into the ocean is a more likely outcome.

I historically await this one... also the real question is can they amend the constitution before a default due for August.. if so that is a really really fast constitutional amendment. All I can say is that the US military would be decimated in size... and I'm surprised its the GOP that is pushing for the amendment.

Something is going to happen.. I just wasn't expecting this for another 15 to 20 years... very very eagerly looking at this one. Change is coming.

[+] NO Pensions 793.2 0.0 151.5 34.6 979.3

[+] NO Health Care 882.0 -309.8 404.1 121.7 1,097.9

[+] ? Education 129.8 -90.7 231.6 609.5 880.2

[+] ? Defense 964.8 0.0 1.0 0.0 965.8

[+] NO Welfare 495.6 -35.1 155.2 87.1 702.7

[+] ? Protection 60.7 0.0 89.3 170.1 320.1

[+] ? Transportation 94.5 -51.7 107.4 124.6 274.9

[+] ? General Government 33.2 -0.8 32.3 54.4 119.1

[+] ? Other Spending 158.4 -48.3 89.7 319.4 519.2

[+] NO Interest 206.7 0.0 44.0 55.9 306.7

[+] Balance 0.0 0.0 -2.7 0.0 -2.7

[+] Total Spending 3,818.8 -536.3 1,303.3 1,577.3 6,163.2

[+] Federal Deficit 1,645.1 0.0 0.0 0.0 1,645.1

[+] Gross Public Debt 15,476.2 0.0 1,022.4 1,595.1 18,093.7

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/budget_pie_gs.php

Defence is the only one that "can" be cut. With only slight reduction in other areas. Balancing it only amounts to a 5% reduction in defence spending.

I'm not big to weigh in on foreign issues but it does effect Canada heavily potentially... but I must say reducing unemployment will not be helped since the DOD is the largest public sector purchaser in the world. I know how I would do it, but it is interesting to see what happens.

Something has to happen in the next two weeks, I havn't been this looking at the US situation since the bank bailouts.

The NO's are where the GOP would cut.

He can cut 20 billion if he drops the nuclear deterent. Thats 50% of the deficit right there. Just include duck and cover under the education budget and mutual annihilation inclusive in the defence budget - half the crisis solved right there.

Wots this "Community development 25.7 " one, those two combined would cut the deficit.

This guy scott agrees, and he's american http://www.facebook.com/ScottDesJarlaisTN04

Edited July 15, 2011 by William Ashley

[bush_cheney2004]

In Winnipeg we have a much more realistic outlook thn the one you portray. You gave a bad habit of misrepersenting the facts.

A realistic outlook of what....biker gang fire bombings? You have a bad habit of vicarious living without the facts.

[Shady]

If you actually look at the graph 18% is the Average but in last 5-6 years revenue has been averaged around 16% the lowest in the last 60 years. I REPEAT (your "graph" backs it up) the US has a revenue problem.

Revenue dipped because of the recession. However, spending continues to go up, no matter what. In good times, and bad times. Spending is the problem.

Tell Obama to stop spending 25% of GDP, when average government spending is 20% of GDP.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Shady

[Shady]

All I got to say that I support the Republican Motion for a "balanced" budget.. amendment to the constitution

I support it too. Republicans came one vote short of passing it during the 90's. Unfortunately too many Democrats voted against it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Revenue dipped because of the recession. However, spending continues to go up, no matter what. In good times, and bad times. Spending is the problem.

Definitely....the US cannot tax its way out of the problem. President Obama didn't even implement the measures recommended by his own non-partisan review panel.

[William Ashley]

I support it too. Republicans came one vote short of passing it during the 90's. Unfortunately too many Democrats voted against it.

Was that when the last Democrat president was in?

Obama has weighed in. Deal or Interest Rate Increase... --- oddly that one will "escalate" things perhaps.

Interesting position. and one that puts Obama at the strings of the Fed. (regardless of whether he has strings attached elsewhere)

Canada is also planning an interest rate hike. but BoC denies it http://www.cbc.ca/fp/story/2011/07/14/5101315.html

Seems like a 2% real inflationary increase

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/jul/15/us-debt-deal-failure-would-put-up-everyone-taxes-says-obama

Well it is a bit of a default issue... however, Obama could inflate US fed debt is illusionary due to the voided reserve act. US actually holds 40+ billion in gold. (the real value of the US economy)

and that is the ceiling issue right there perhaps.

Its important to realize the Reserve act was voided by Roosevelt.

It will likely just be make a deal but it would be interesting to see this one reversed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Reserve_Act

Perhaps a

FedNote Reserve Act could be created?

Go Amero.

Where's JFK and a Dummy when you need one.

I geuss Obama instituting Iraq, Afghani and Libyan slave sales would be a no go.. no cash but I can pay you in Arabs. Starting a new gov business operation.. My pet Arab.

Was Sadam worth it?

http://costofwar.com/en/

How much does a seal team hit cost as opposed to half a trillion dollars?

Edited July 15, 2011 by William Ashley

[August1991]

I think you have it wrong. They are not trying to cure the disease, they are focusing on the symptoms rather then the disease itself.

It would be foolish for them to continue spending and borrowing. There needs to be a correction in the market, yes it will be extremely painful and a lot of people will suffer but it is necessary. Some times medicine tastes bad but you have to take it. If they continue on the path they are going down, then they are headed for a bigger problem because the dollar will collapse.

In general, I agree with you. Government spending should be smaller, and wiser.

But the US economy is now in a very peculiar situation. It is like someone who has pneumonia.

If you don't believe me, look at nominal (and real) interest rates. They are at historically low levels and they are staying there. Bond prices are not falling. Some central bankers would like to raise interest rates (because it would signal a return to a "normal" world) but they don't. Broad-based inflation (and wage increases) are still close to zero.

----

In simple terms, the US economy has a severe cold. Many Americans are deleveraging, paying down their debts. They are holding safe financial paper rather than spending it or holding the riskier sort.

The collapse of the housing bubble burned a few Americans and put the fear of the Lord into many others.

Whatever Obama does or doesn't do, the US will survive this bad cold but it would be foolish to make things worse by cutting veins, or taking walks in the fresh air. Rather, the government and the Fed should make up the shortfall - for awhile.

Edited July 15, 2011 by August1991

[August1991]

I think that we all agree that daily exercise is good for long term health.

But no one would suggest that taking someone from an ICU for a walk in the park will make them healthier.

In general, Americans are overweight, they must limit government spending, and they should exercise more. But not right now while they're in the hospital or sick at home in bed.

Edited July 15, 2011 by August1991

[bush_cheney2004]

I think that we all agree that daily exercise is good for long term health.

But no one would suggest that taking someone from an ICU for a walk in the park will make them healthier...

Instead, do you propose that someone go from the ICU back to smoking two packs a day?

[August1991]

Instead, do you propose that someone go from the ICU back to smoking two packs a day?

A single cigarette will not kill someone. But without a treatment of penicillin, you may die.

BC, I never said that penicillin will prolong life. I merely argued that used judiciously, it prevents death.

You see government spending as a cigarette. I see it as a warm blanket: useful when you have a cold but too inviting when you are well and want to stay longer in bed.

[beeton3]

One of the biggest misconceptions is that the president controls the economy. Many remember good or bad economic times and blame the president.

Truth is they have been dismantling American industry for 35 years. The entire purpose of the debt is to borrow monies to pay for services and service industries that are naturally to be funded by industry taxes and revenue. The borrowing of this money was so the common people did not realize the actual effects caused by not buying American made products. You see if you noticed 25 years ago that by allowing your över paid union workers" to lose their jobs would cause your roads not to be looked after and your schools and hospitals to close no one would have allowed the treason to continue.

Instead we were all conditioned to believe that union workers deserved to lose their jobs and our children "deserved an education and did not belong in factories like their parents".

Understand? most will not. Most will dwell on party politics and smear blame games instead of realizing what is actually taking place until its over.

So I ask you Who is willing to lend this money knowing we could never pay it back? Why the answer is the nations receiving our industry! they will stop lending as soon as they have been able to strip and dismantle all the industry they wish to take.

So no likely your debt ceiling will not rise and soon you will see what seperates a third world nation from a nation with industry.

[bush_cheney2004]

A single cigarette will not kill someone. But without a treatment of penicillin, you may die.

..and if the ICU patient goes back to the very same habits, death will also ensue in short order.

BC, I never said that penicillin will prolong life. I merely argued that used judiciously, it prevents death.

Here is where the analogy breaks down, as there will be no "death" in the truest sense, just a change in lifestyle.

You see government spending as a cigarette. I see it as a warm blanket: useful when you have a cold but too inviting when you are well and want to stay longer in bed.

I have benefited greatly from government, but also recognize its unsustainable growth. A correction is in order, and far from being painful, it will be a return to that which is sustainable...isn't that a popular notion these days?

[punked]

Revenue dipped because of the recession. However, spending continues to go up, no matter what. In good times, and bad times. Spending is the problem.

Tell Obama to stop spending 25% of GDP, when average government spending is 20% of GDP.

No it dipped as soon as the Bush tax cuts passed. Look at the graph and stop lying for once because you think no will call you on it.

[Oleg Bach]

Come on. Seriously you are part of the problem. You have no idea how math works. Here Krugman sets it out in back and white for you.

http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2011/07/15/opinion/15krugman.html

Missed a lot of school as a kid and you are right, my math skills are terrible...but I do know one thing about physics...is that you can not generate material out of nothing. America's economics are that of a snake oil con artist..who wears a nice suit and we all believe.

[bush_cheney2004]

Missed a lot of school as a kid and you are right, my math skills are terrible...but I do know one thing about physics...is that you can not generate material out of nothing. America's economics are that of a snake oil con artist..who wears a nice suit and we all believe.

Wait...it gets better. Knowing this, they are afraid that the snake oil con artist might have to go away!

[Oleg Bach]

Wait...it gets better. Knowing this, they are afraid that the snake oil con artist might have to go away!

It's traditional...you are as jaded as I - People have this great insecurity and a low self esteem that all the liberal conditioning will not cure. They admire - no wait - worship those that are high up the food chain - they dream of being the big cheese - It's called success - and it does not matter if you have ethics or not...just present yourself as a good guy and hire creative PR people to maintain the image. Snake oil sales will continue to be big buisness and the average Joe six pack - along with the corporate ladder climbers will continue to kiss their slippery butts.

If the con artists go away - all will be left with out a heros - and no bench mark to measure their "success" by - Folks are going to get exactly what they deserve - south of the boarder and north of it.

[Oleg Bach]

"Those who try desperately to save their own lives will lose them. Those who are willing to lose everything for a just cause will have life and life more abundantly" To para phrase some scripture - America must have faith and be willing to do what is right at the cost of losing itself - only by doing so will it save itself - I don't think America has the balls or courage to truely believe in it's self.

[Shady]

No it dipped as soon as the Bush tax cuts passed.

Complete nonsense. Revenues dipped because of the recession and 911. After that, revenues increaed dramatically.

[eyeball]

I am not sure there is such a creature as conventional economic wisdom unless you are comparing the Keynsesian model with that of Friedman.

I mean the wisdom that has been guiding us pretty much since Reagan given he seems to get the most kudos for where we are. For all we know though his astrologer deserves all the credit.

[eyeball]

Why is this strange finacial phenomena global in scope? I don't remember things being so intertwined that when one nation gets a disease they all seem to get it.

You know that saying, it's a small world after all?

[punked]

Complete nonsense. Revenues dipped because of the recession and 911. After that, revenues increaed dramatically.

Yah yah yah i got it, graph lies. I get it Shady you don't know math, you can't read a graph and you don't trust anyone that says something you don't want to believe. I know, it is what you say in every post.

[Jack Weber]

No, I'm an economic science skeptic.

Mostly I just can't believe how little controversy it's taken to virtually paralyze us on the climate compared to how conventional economic wisdom bulldozes right through any and all controversy as if it wasn't even there.

Spot on...

The climate change canard is bad enough...

The "Free Market will save us all" canard is the biggest fraud perpetrated on modern society since someone said Marxism was a good idea...

[Jack Weber]

One of the biggest misconceptions is that the president controls the economy. Many remember good or bad economic times and blame the president.

Truth is they have been dismantling American industry for 35 years. The entire purpose of the debt is to borrow monies to pay for services and service industries that are naturally to be funded by industry taxes and revenue. The borrowing of this money was so the common people did not realize the actual effects caused by not buying American made products. You see if you noticed 25 years ago that by allowing your över paid union workers" to lose their jobs would cause your roads not to be looked after and your schools and hospitals to close no one would have allowed the treason to continue.

Instead we were all conditioned to believe that union workers deserved to lose their jobs and our children "deserved an education and did not belong in factories like their parents".

Understand? most will not. Most will dwell on party politics and smear blame games instead of realizing what is actually taking place until its over.

So I ask you Who is willing to lend this money knowing we could never pay it back? Why the answer is the nations receiving our industry! they will stop lending as soon as they have been able to strip and dismantle all the industry they wish to take.

So no likely your debt ceiling will not rise and soon you will see what seperates a third world nation from a nation with industry.

Nicely said...

You've outlined the downfall of "Empire America"...

When you ship your jobs overseas and replace them with low paying service sector jobs,all the while trying to fund an aging population,you have a recipe for financial and economic disaster.