Oleg Bach Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 So from what you say - if all co-operate and put partisanship aside - they can work it out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 So from what you say - if all co-operate and put partisanship aside - they can work it out? Yes I think if all sides gave something they would work it out and America would be better off. Yes there needs to be cuts and there is room to do but if this has shown anything it is that there somethings the American people want: Vets paid, Military paid, SS, Medicare, and criminals prosecuted and kept in prison. As we have seen from Shady many times even if you close every park, you close every US department there isn't enough money to pay for that so revenues have to increase. The math doesn't add up the US has a revenue problem and the sooner they accept the better. Republican just refuse in every way to understand that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Yes I think if all sides gave something they would work it out and America would be better off. Yes there needs to be cuts and there is room to do but if this has shown anything it is that there somethings the American people want: Vets paid, Military paid, SS, Medicare, and criminals prosecuted and kept in prison. As we have seen from Shady many times even if you close every park, you close every US department there isn't enough money to pay for that so revenues have to increase. The math doesn't add up the US has a revenue problem and the sooner they accept the better. Republican just refuse in every way to understand that. So the willful ignoring of reality comes from one side? From the Repbulicans? The Democrats are totally in touch with reality?.....Maybe a bit of real statesmenship and a firm and raging scolding by Obama might help...after all he is suppose to be a great communicator...oh so sweet and nice all the time - Maybe he should lose his temper and behave like a leader? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) So the willful ignoring of reality comes from one side? From the Repbulicans? The Democrats are totally in touch with reality?.....Maybe a bit of real statesmenship and a firm and raging scolding by Obama might help...after all he is suppose to be a great communicator...oh so sweet and nice all the time - Maybe he should lose his temper and behave like a leader? No Democrats offered to have 3 TRILLION in cuts in exchange for a revenue increase of 1 Trillion which would very much help fix the problem and the Republicans said "nope in our caucus of 243 we can't find 50 votes for it because there are no leaders in this party". Obama has his hands full convincing Democrats to take on 3 Trillion in cuts but he is a leader and will get every vote he needs the Republicans don't have one so they can't even get a whip count so they could know if a deal would pass or not. The Republican party really isn't the party who will listen to Obama but you would think their leaders could get 30% of their people to say yes or no. They can't even do that. Again you seem to project the Republicans problem onto Obama. That is the wrong way to look at it. I have hit a point where I now realize most people are unwilling or unable to understand what the problem here really is. How the government works, what and how it pays for it, what default would really mean, and how sometimes you get the best of a bad situation. There is no silver bullet here. Edited July 14, 2011 by punked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 From the Washington Post "On Aug. 3, the Treasury is set to receive about $12 billion in tax revenue — mainly from people paying their taxes late — and is slated to spend $32 billion Why aren't you counting the revenue the Treasury is receiving on August 1st? And August 2nd? And every other day in August? As has already been stated and proven. The Treasury will collect some $200 billion dollars that month. Only $25 billion needs to go to servicing debt. There's plenty of money to pay for SS and Medicare, and troops, etc. How about instead: The Department of Energy, which actually produces no energy, take a break for a while? The Department of Education, which actually doesn't educate anyone, take a break for a while? The Advisory Council on Historic Preservation take a break for a while? The Department of Agriculture, which doesn't actually produce any food, take a break for a while? The Department of Immigration and Naturalization, take a break for a while? How about the billions being spent on Obama's unconstitutional mission in Libya be stopped for a while? How about NPR, and PBS, and ACORN stop getting funding for a while? How about Federal workers getting furloughed for a while? There's countless billions of dollars that could be saved without having to touch anything regarding social security, medicare, medicaid, veteran's/military pay, or law enforcement. But that doesn't fearmonger well. So punked, just like the fearmonger-in-chief has to resort to lies and distortions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Oh, and my debt-ceiling plan would be this: The spending cuts promised by Democrats in the 80's to Reagan when he went along with tax hikes, and the spending cuts promised by Democrats to George Bush Sr in the 90's when he went along with tax hikes, but were never implemented, be implemented now. Once that's done. The debt-ceiling will be raised. And no tax hikes for spending cuts will ever be agreed to again until the spending cuts take place first. The Democrats have tried this trick too many times to believe them ever again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) Oh, and my debt-ceiling plan would be this: The spending cuts promised by Democrats in the 80's to Reagan when he went along with tax hikes, and the spending cuts promised by Democrats to George Bush Sr in the 90's when he went along with tax hikes, but were never implemented, be implemented now. Once that's done. The debt-ceiling will be raised. And no tax hikes for spending cuts will ever be agreed to again until the spending cuts take place first. The Democrats have tried this trick too many times to believe them ever again. Maybe you should head down to Washington and demand a meeting with all members of Congress. While you are at it demand a meeting with Obama. ROFL Edited July 14, 2011 by pinko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) Why aren't you counting the revenue the Treasury is receiving on August 1st? And August 2nd? And every other day in August? As has already been stated and proven. The Treasury will collect some $200 billion dollars that month. Only $25 billion needs to go to servicing debt. There's plenty of money to pay for SS and Medicare, and troops, etc. How about instead: The Department of Energy, which actually produces no energy, take a break for a while? The Department of Education, which actually doesn't educate anyone, take a break for a while? The Advisory Council on Historic Preservation take a break for a while? The Department of Agriculture, which doesn't actually produce any food, take a break for a while? The Department of Immigration and Naturalization, take a break for a while? How about the billions being spent on Obama's unconstitutional mission in Libya be stopped for a while? How about NPR, and PBS, and ACORN stop getting funding for a while? How about Federal workers getting furloughed for a while? There's countless billions of dollars that could be saved without having to touch anything regarding social security, medicare, medicaid, veteran's/military pay, or law enforcement. But that doesn't fearmonger well. So punked, just like the fearmonger-in-chief has to resort to lies and distortions. There are no Billions Shady there is no rainy day bank account come Aug 2nd the US finances Day to day. THE REASON THEY HAVE TO RAISE THE DEBT CEILING IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO MONEY! The way the US government and financial system work isn't your check book Shady. Even if Obama does everything you say Shady it wont work come Aug 3rd the US get 12 Billion (Assuming they can afford to keep the IRS open) and they have to send out 23 Billion in SS checks. How do they do that Shady? How about this Shady Aug 4th is the drop dead date. You know what? 100 Billion in T-Bills mature then usually the Treasury would pay those off then issue more T Bills to make up for it. It is a revenue neutral thing however there wouldn't be any money to pay off those T-Bills so there is your default you keep telling up does exist. It isn't as simple as "It only cost 25 billion service the debt" the US pays off and issues Bonds everyday Billions worth what happens when there is no money in the bank to even pay with simple revenue neutral things? I'll tell you what happens Default, drying of credit markets, and quite and fast depression. Again you know nothing about how the US government works, stop pretending you do it is so much more complicated then you want to believe fact is there wont be 100 Billion anywhere to swept those T-Bills Aug 4th and the US defaults end of story. Obama is magic, Cantor isn't magic, and you don't understant the situation. BTW your cuts even if you don't assume the US goes day by day as they would have to but month by month some how by Eric Cantor Magic: The Department of Energy, which actually produces no energy, take a break for a while? The Department of Education, which actually doesn't educate anyone, take a break for a while? The Advisory Council on Historic Preservation take a break for a while? The Department of Agriculture, which doesn't actually produce any food, take a break for a while? The Department of Immigration and Naturalization, take a break for a while? Guess what you are talking about? Maybe 5-10% of spending come Aug 3rd the Post says they need an immediate cut of 44%. You are just a little off base because no one has actually gotten you to admit what you would cut and now we all know you seem to think the government spends a whole lot more on programs you hate then it does. Edited July 14, 2011 by punked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 ....Again you know nothing about how the US government works, stop pretending you do it is so much more complicated then you want to believe fact is there wont be 100 Billion anywhere to swept those T-Bills Aug 4th and the US defaults end of story. Obama is magic, Cantor isn't magic, and you don't understant the situation. Your "understanding" is not correct. The US will not "default" on Aug 2nd or 4th if the debt ceiling is not raised by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Your "understanding" is not correct. The US will not "default" on Aug 2nd or 4th if the debt ceiling is not raised by then. Exactly. His understanding is unfortunate. Federal spending in August is scheduled to be $300 billion. The Treasury during that month will take in $200 billion in revenue. Servicing the debt only takes $25 billion per month. So this nonsense about the US defaulting is complete and utter fearmongering. I'll try and say it slow and loud so punked can understand. PUNKED, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS SCHEDULED TO SPEND $300 BILLION DOLLARS IN AUGUST. THE TREASURY IS GOING TO TAKE IN $200 BILLION DOLLARS IN TAX REVENUE THAT MONTH. SERVICING THE DEBT ONLY TAKES $25 BILLION DOLLARS PER MONTH. THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE A DEFAULT UNLESS THE PRESIDENT OR THE TREASURY SECRETARY CHOOSE NOT TO PAY THE DEBT SERVICE. THEY HAVE TO CHOOSE NOT TO DO THAT. BECAUSE THE FUNDS WILL BE THERE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 ...THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE A DEFAULT UNLESS THE PRESIDENT OR THE TREASURY SECRETARY CHOOSE NOT TO PAY THE DEBT SERVICE. THEY HAVE TO CHOOSE NOT TO DO THAT. BECAUSE THE FUNDS WILL BE THERE. That is spot on....Treasury's role is clearly defined in the US Constitution. Defaulting on debt payments is a choice, not a definite outcome. Fear mongering about federal prisoners like Marc Emery being set free is just an ineffective diversion. Mr. Secretary...do your duty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Good analysis that suggests the US has a spending problem - not a revenue problem: http://blogs.forbes.com/warrenmeyer/2011/07/14/its-a-spending-problem/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 How do you expect the treasury to pay those 100 Billion in T-Bills on Aug 4th? Just answer me that one question ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 How do you expect the treasury to pay those 100 Billion in T-Bills on Aug 4th? Just answer me that one question ok. The same way it did in 1985, 1995-1996, 2002, and 2003...by curtailing discretionary payments, raiding pension fund bonds, and pushing payments into future bond auctions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Letting them is one thing.....demanding that they do so is quite another. The Americans get ripped for too much debt, then they get ripped for not adding more debt. Americans get ripped no matter what they do. You're not used to it by now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) I haven't read through all of this thread. Can the US federal government borrow more? Of course it can. Should the US federal government borrow and spend the money? I dunno, but I think so. Should the US Fed buy more private securities/put more cash in banks? Yes, if necessary. ---- The US government is far (very, very far) from its debt ceiling. I'm no leftist, no Democrat, but it would be foolish for the US federal government to be cheap now. US governments have the power to tax the richest, most productive, talented people on the planet. All things considered, American governments (federal and state) should not worry about deficits. They have the power to tax, and everyone around the world knows this. But in the long term, US governments should not kill this golden egg. ---- As Paul Krugman said, penicillin prevents death - but it does not make anyone live longer. To live longer, we need lower taxes and less government. But right now, to face our infection, we need more government spending. Edited July 14, 2011 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 The same way it did in 1985, 1995-1996, 2002, and 2003...by curtailing discretionary payments, raiding pension fund bonds, and pushing payments into future bond auctions. They CAN'T AUCTION BONDS!!!!! This isn't 1985, 1995, 2002 or 2003 this isn't a government shut down their a ceiling on the debt. They ARE NOT ALLOWED TO ISSUE MORE DEBT. Even if it was neutral they CAN'T ISSUE THE BONDS TO PAY FOR THE BONDS NOW because even if was for 10 minutes it would add more debt and their is a CEILING! Again come Aug 4th they will default just from those T-Bills so I ask again how do they pay them? There is no money tucked away they are operating day to day they can only spend what comes in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 I haven't read through all of this thread. Can the US federal government borrow more? Of course it can. Should the US federal government borrow and spend the money? I dunno, but I think so. Should the US Fed buy more private securities/put more cash in banks? Yes, if necessary. ---- The US government is far (very, very far) from its debt ceiling. I'm no leftist, no Democrat, but it would be foolish for the US federal government to be cheap now. US governments have the power to tax the richest people on the planet. All things considered, American governments (federal and state) should not worry about deficits. They have the power to tax, and everyone around the world knows this. All things considered, American governments (federal and state) should not worry about deficits. Thats ridiculous to the point of being laughable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Good analysis that suggests the US has a spending problem - not a revenue problem: http://blogs.forbes.com/warrenmeyer/2011/07/14/its-a-spending-problem/ Yah they would be great analysis accept for one thing it doesn't talk about spending it talks about spending to GDP. See what they did there they tricked you into thinking they were talking about spending but they aren't they are talking about Spending to GDP which changes the story a little. As a recession hits and GDP shirks spending to GDP will go up then you can say "Spending to GDP has increased" that doesn't mean spending is the problem though. Again what do you cut my friend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) Thats ridiculous to the point of being laughable.Dre, you would object to taking antibiotics because you believe that the human body is basically balanced. I disagree.If you are ill with an infection, it would be foolish to object to taking penicillin. Then again, it would be foolish to continue to take penicillin in the belief that it will make you live forever. ---- The US can take antibiotics now, and it should. It is wrong to believe that taking antibioitics will make America live forever. Edited July 14, 2011 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Dre, you would object to taking antibiotics because you believe that the human body is basically balanced. I disagree. If you are ill with an infection, it would be foolish to object to taking penicillin. Then again, it would be foolish to continue to take penicillin in the belief that it will make you live forever. ---- The US can take antibiotics now, and it should. It is wrong to believe that taking antibioitics will make America live forever. It is no use, if you read the thread everyone in it is all for running for the cliff with their only solution that magic will save them. No one here is willing to try and understand what would happen if the debt ceiling isn't raised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 They CAN'T AUCTION BONDS!!!!! This isn't 1985, 1995, 2002 or 2003 this isn't a government shut down their a ceiling on the debt. They ARE NOT ALLOWED TO ISSUE MORE DEBT. Even if it was neutral they CAN'T ISSUE THE BONDS TO PAY FOR THE BONDS NOW because even if was for 10 minutes it would add more debt and their is a CEILING! Stop screaming when you are wrong...reminds me of an old girlfriend. The bond auctions will be delayed until the ceiling is raised...point being that there is no doomsday on Aug 2nd or 4th. Again come Aug 4th they will default just from those T-Bills so I ask again how do they pay them? There is no money tucked away they are operating day to day they can only spend what comes in. You have not been paying attention....see "pension fund". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 It is no use, if you read the thread everyone in it is all for running for the cliff with their only solution that magic will save them. No one here is willing to try and understand what would happen if the debt ceiling isn't raised. Your Chicken Little act is getting old....Bernanke and Geitner are already getting ready for the shifts that you say can't be done. What will happen is a debt rating downgrade by Moody's and more political brinksmanship until Cantor gets most of what he wants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) Stop screaming when you are wrong...reminds me of an old girlfriend. The bond auctions will be delayed until the ceiling is raised...point being that there is no doomsday on Aug 2nd or 4th. You have not been paying attention....see "pension fund". Yah I agree bond auctions will be delayed it will be very very hard to pay those 100 billion in m matured t-bills that come due though. No problem they wont get paid and the credit agencies will down grade the credit market will freeze. That has been my point. You keep saying pension fund as if that isn't just full of T-bills to. The Treasury can't pay t-bills with t-bills they can however default. Edited July 14, 2011 by punked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Your Chicken Little act is getting old....Bernanke and Geitner are already getting ready for the shifts that you say can't be done. What will happen is a debt rating downgrade by Moody's and more political brinksmanship until Cantor gets most of what he wants. I agree down grade, credit market freeze, welcome to the depression 2.0. Nice thanks Republicans for not taking this thing seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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