The crisis in Egypt

[scribblet]

No anti-Israel ranting yet, but I wonder how long before someone will start the 'it's all Israel's fault' - then watch out.

[Bob]

This link should bring you to a small gallery with pictures of the events.

Gallery from the Jerusalem Post.

[jbg]

Or as Chinese saying goes, change is opportunity.

Or as the Chinese also say, wwe live in interesting times.

[jbg]

For once I agree with Bush_Cheney2004, in that this is a positive thing overall.

Certainly, things could go horribly wrong. But the people demanding the ouster of dictators?

In and of itself, it's a good, and is a positive sign.

I agree too. Unlike Iran, Egypt borders a stable, reliable democracy, Israel. If a state bordering Israel went "horribly wrong", Israel would deal with the problem. With dispatch and without dithering or waffling, since the first war Israel loses will be its last.

[Bob]

I agree too. Unlike Iran, Egypt borders a stable, reliable democracy, Israel. If a state bordering Israel went "horribly wrong", Israel would deal with the problem. With dispatch and without dithering or waffling, since the first war Israel loses will be its last.

I would reserve judgement until we know more. I'm also unsure if Israel can easily deal with another front. Egypt has an advanced military, also, due to significant American-aid.

We also know that international support for us exists only when we're being murdered, and even then many justify and celebrate the killing of Jews. No matter how threatened we are, we're always perceived as the aggressor by many. The potential international reaction to future hostilities between Israel and Egypt is more almost certainly bad for Israel. Naturally, the anti-Semites are salivating at the idea of another hostile neighbour to Israel.

Lastly, we're speculating a bit too much.

[xul]

No anti-Israel ranting yet, but I wonder how long before someone will start the 'it's all Israel's fault' - then watch out.

I guess it would come out if Mubarak was out and his successor, regardless whoever he was, could not make those poor rioters a better life because Uncle Sam no longer had the economic muscle to support a country as big as Egypt, so he had to find a new funder....

[myata]

I can only join my hopes with the people of Egypt. It's up to them to make it happen now. They have to bring up greater numbers, 50,000 in the center of one city is not enough, the regime will crash it eventually as it's in the corner, even if at cost of serious bloodshed and total bankrupcy (for itself, and not to forget its chief sponsors across the ocean, whatever democratic words they manage to squeeze out these days).

And another thing is about the army. It's the events like Portugal's Red Carnations that move progress, same democracy, far more, infinitely more than hypocritical, no, rotten to the very core pseudo-democratic yap while arming and supporting despotic regimes and plain aggressors around the world. If there were a subcolonel who'd refuse to shoot hhis own people; a groop of thinking officers who would obey their minds and hearts ahead of that or ruthless dictators and their ever calculating foreign sponsors. Things could turn... the history would turn.. who cares about all those pseudo oracles of fake freedoms with their eternal doublespeak and neverending machinations.

If there's an event today to support people of Egypt, I'll go there.

And finally, the next time the big "democratic" stink hits the fans of the world, we should know better than to buy in. There's no denying the true cost of this duplicity, not anymore, if we could still see and have any claim to freedom ourselves, here.

[Wild Bill]

I agree too. Unlike Iran, Egypt borders a stable, reliable democracy, Israel. If a state bordering Israel went "horribly wrong", Israel would deal with the problem. With dispatch and without dithering or waffling, since the first war Israel loses will be its last.

It may not come to that but the danger is indeed obvious. Mubarak certainly looks like he deserves ousting. The question is , what kind of government will succeed him?

Myself, I'm optimistic. Egypt has been a fairly modern, progressive state for some decades now. Most of the protesters seem to be younger people who are quite plugged in to the freedoms of western societies and want the same for themselves. The religious radical groups don't seem to be driving this protest, although they certainly would love to seize control!

We may see more bloodshed if the fundamentalists try, since they really don't seem to have the popular support. Egypt's protesters are young and well-educated people, not ignorant farmers like the Taliban once ruled. If the Brotherhood of Muslims or some group like them tries to pull an "Iran" and replace Mubarak with a religious theocracy they would likely face even stronger protests!

In the long run I don't think this will threaten Egypt's relationship with Israel, the USA or the rest of the world at all. It will just mean a better country for Egyptians.

Of course, that sort of example for an Arab country is the LAST thing an Iranian ayatollah would want!

[Bob]

Wild Bill, what gives you the impression that these protests are being lead by people who support liberalism and freedom? These people are products of an oppressive system that tries its best to indoctrinate them. I don't know enough to comment on the nature(s) of the uprising, but I'm not about to take your word for it and believe that its grounded in democratic principles of freedom and plurality. Don't make the common hubris-related North American mistake of assuming that all people are alike. Middle Eastern countries (aside from Israel) are not multi-cultural, and have not been exposed to serious pluralism in any real sense.

I have no idea where you're coming from when your describe Egypt as a modern, progressive state, and having been so for several decades. Are we talking about the same Egypt? Yes, they are certainly more educated and modern than the people of Afghanistan, but isn't that setting the bar a bit low?

[myata]

Do I hear it correctly that our staunch defenders of all things democratical are now putting their hopes on obviously despotic rotten to the core regime that holds on nothing else but buyonets supplied by foreign sponsors

- ahead of clear will of people for change?

Some notion of "democracy"... go figure! And make up your mind, is it the democracy or "a democracy" Bush-Chaney-Obama-Clinton style you want to support. There, in the far away Arabian land.. and right here, in Toronto.

[dre]

I agree too. Unlike Iran, Egypt borders a stable, reliable democracy, Israel. If a state bordering Israel went "horribly wrong", Israel would deal with the problem. With dispatch and without dithering or waffling, since the first war Israel loses will be its last.

[Scotty]

For once I agree with Bush_Cheney2004, in that this is a positive thing overall.

Certainly, things could go horribly wrong. But the people demanding the ouster of dictators?

In and of itself, it's a good, and is a positive sign.

You mean like the riots against the Shah of Iran?

[Bob]

Do I hear it correctly that our staunch defenders of all things democratical are now putting their hopes on obviously despotic rotten to the core regime that holds on nothing else but buyonets supplied by foreign sponsors

- ahead of clear will of people for change?

Some notion of "democracy"... go figure! And make up your mind, is it the democracy or "a democracy" Bush-Chaney-Obama-Clinton style you want to support. There, in the far away Arabian land.. and right here, in Toronto.

Who are you talking to or responding to?

[GWiz]

It may not come to that but the danger is indeed obvious. Mubarak certainly looks like he deserves ousting. The question is , what kind of government will succeed him?

Myself, I'm optimistic. Egypt has been a fairly modern, progressive state for some decades now. Most of the protesters seem to be younger people who are quite plugged in to the freedoms of western societies and want the same for themselves. The religious radical groups don't seem to be driving this protest, although they certainly would love to seize control!

We may see more bloodshed if the fundamentalists try, since they really don't seem to have the popular support. Egypt's protesters are young and well-educated people, not ignorant farmers like the Taliban once ruled. If the Brotherhood of Muslims or some group like them tries to pull an "Iran" and replace Mubarak with a religious theocracy they would likely face even stronger protests!

In the long run I don't think this will threaten Egypt's relationship with Israel, the USA or the rest of the world at all. It will just mean a better country for Egyptians.

Of course, that sort of example for an Arab country is the LAST thing an Iranian ayatollah would want!

Agreed! Whole heartedly at that...

Edited January 29, 2011 by GWiz

[Wild Bill]

Wild Bill, what gives you the impression that these protests are being lead by people who support liberalism and freedom? These people are products of an oppressive system that tries its best to indoctrinate them. I don't know enough to comment on the nature(s) of the uprising, but I'm not about to take your word for it and believe that its grounded in democratic principles of freedom and plurality. Don't make the common hubris-related North American mistake of assuming that all people are alike. Middle Eastern countries (aside from Israel) are not multi-cultural, and have not been exposed to serious pluralism in any real sense.

I have no idea where you're coming from when your describe Egypt as a modern, progressive state, and having been so for several decades. Are we talking about the same Egypt? Yes, they are certainly more educated and modern than the people of Afghanistan, but isn't that setting the bar a bit low?

Well, I just zipped over to a webpage for Egypt and tourism. The shots of people on the beaches show bikinis, not burkhas. I'm a ham radio operator and I've had many chats with Egyptian hams via shortwave. Egypt has had no problem with using the InterNet or watching satellite tv. Things seem pretty free there. I've met young civil engineering students from Egypt and chatted with them. They seemed as well aware of the world as any from McMaster U here in Hamilton.

It may not be all sex, drugs and rock and roll over there but Egypt is hardly Afghanistan, or even Iran. It would seem they have been exposed to far more than you suggest.

Not the same as us, perhaps. Still, they are a far cry from some oppressed Islamic fundamentalist peoples. I just don't believe that a strict religious government is possible in that society.

[Bob]

Well, I just zipped over to a webpage for Egypt and tourism. The shots of people on the beaches show bikinis, not burkhas. I'm a ham radio operator and I've had many chats with Egyptian hams via shortwave. Egypt has had no problem with using the InterNet or watching satellite tv. Things seem pretty free there. I've met young civil engineering students from Egypt and chatted with them. They seemed as well aware of the world as any from McMaster U here in Hamilton.

It may not be all sex, drugs and rock and roll over there but Egypt is hardly Afghanistan, or even Iran. It would seem they have been exposed to far more than you suggest.

Not the same as us, perhaps. Still, they are a far cry from some oppressed Islamic fundamentalist peoples. I just don't believe that a strict religious government is possible in that society.

Hey Bill,

I'll be the first to admit that my knowledge of Egyptian culture and society is very low. All I know is from Egyptians I've met in Canada and spoken with. Still, I think the Egyptians that you've had the opportunity to meet and speak with are not representative of the broader population (engineering students, Egyptians who speak English, etc). I'd be careful about making assumptions about their society and culture based on what you've seen. I agree, Egypt is certainly not an ultra-religious society. There are strong religious organizations with serious support from the Egyptian public, however. Obviously, the Muslim Brotherhood is the foremost opposition movement in Egypt.

All I'm saying is that I'm certainly not convinced that this Egyptian turmoil is primarily driven by an interest in sincere democracy and freedom. Opposition to Mubarak is one thing, but mobilization towards modernity and liberty is bigger and broader. I'll reserve judgement on this story until I learn more. I hope you're right, but I'm far from certain.

[dre]

Well, I just zipped over to a webpage for Egypt and tourism. The shots of people on the beaches show bikinis, not burkhas. I'm a ham radio operator and I've had many chats with Egyptian hams via shortwave. Egypt has had no problem with using the InterNet or watching satellite tv. Things seem pretty free there. I've met young civil engineering students from Egypt and chatted with them. They seemed as well aware of the world as any from McMaster U here in Hamilton.

It may not be all sex, drugs and rock and roll over there but Egypt is hardly Afghanistan, or even Iran. It would seem they have been exposed to far more than you suggest.

Not the same as us, perhaps. Still, they are a far cry from some oppressed Islamic fundamentalist peoples. I just don't believe that a strict religious government is possible in that society.

Actually the population is very similar to that of Iran. Both have a segment of the population thats younger and relatively educated, with democratic leanings... but both also have a healthy demographic of religious conservatives, and in both cases the entities poised to assume power post-revolution are conservative islamic organizations.

[Bob]

For those who don't already know, Egypt has a secular dictatorship, while Iran has an Islamic dictatorship.

EDIT - Egypt's dictatorship is quite a bit more secular than Iran's.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Bob

[dre]

For those who don't already know, Egypt has a secular dictatorship, while Iran has an Islamic dictatorship.

Iran had a secular dictatorship prior to the revolution as well. Thats the whole point people are making.

[bush_cheney2004]

As expected, Canada parrots American rhetoric for Egypt:

Canada wants Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak to "listen to the will of the people" and reform the way he runs the country, Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon said Saturday.

Cannon told CBC News that Egyptians are obviously demanding change, so Canada is "encouraging President Mubarak and his government to go forward and put democratic reforms in place."

However, the minister said Canada is in no position to encourage Mubarak to quit politics or even leave the country, something many protesters in Egypt have been demanding over the past five days.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2011/01/29/egypt-canada.html

[Bob]

As expected, Canada parrots American rhetoric for Egypt:

Canada wants Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak to "listen to the will of the people" and reform the way he runs the country, Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon said Saturday.

Cannon told CBC News that Egyptians are obviously demanding change, so Canada is "encouraging President Mubarak and his government to go forward and put democratic reforms in place."

However, the minister said Canada is in no position to encourage Mubarak to quit politics or even leave the country, something many protesters in Egypt have been demanding over the past five days.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2011/01/29/egypt-canada.html

It's so pathetic how Canada and the USA offer lip service to the demonstrations at this moment. As if the grievances of the Egyptians towards their leadership is something we're all learning about for the first time with the onset of this civil unrest.

Just empty words from empty men.

[dre]

It's so pathetic how Canada and the USA offer lip service to the demonstrations at this moment. As if the grievances of the Egyptians towards their leadership is something we're all learning about for the first time with the onset of this civil unrest.

Just empty words from empty men.

Pathetic.. yes. But quite expected. Western leaders arent really in the habit of cheering on the mob to depose various regimes they have a history of supporting. They learned the hard way that can come back and bite them in the ass.

[Jack Weber]

Actually the population is very similar to that of Iran. Both have a segment of the population thats younger and relatively educated, with democratic leanings... but both also have a healthy demographic of religious conservatives, and in both cases the entities poised to assume power post-revolution are conservative islamic organizations.

This is the largest issue these countries are going face...

The democratic movements in these countries have been persecuted as much as the hardline Islamofascist organizations.The difference is that the Islamofascist organizations can turn inward an insular in the mosques and organize themselves in a much more clandestine manner.The democratic organizations simply don't have that "cover" available to them.

That organizational ability will help the Islamofascist side of things as Tunisian and Egyptian society become increasingly chaotic in a power vacuum...

[bush_cheney2004]

It's so pathetic how Canada and the USA offer lip service to the demonstrations at this moment. As if the grievances of the Egyptians towards their leadership is something we're all learning about for the first time with the onset of this civil unrest.

I disagree....the pathetic ones are the Egyptians themselves. Live free or die.

[Bob]

I disagree....the pathetic ones are the Egyptians themselves. Live free or die.

"Give me liberty or give me death".