does the mainstream left care about rural Canada?

[blueblood]

Driving across Western Manitoba this past weekend, I have seen a disturbing thing. There is a by-election coming soon, and I have not yet seen any Liberal or NDP signs. Not even a couple, I am talking zero. For a national party, wanting to represent all Canadians, I think that is proposterous and hypocritical. Ignatieff looks like a hypocrite for saying he wants to reach out to rural Canada and fix the Liberal brand there, and yet does not even have the stones to even put up signs. Jack Layton is in the same boat is Ignatieff.

In all likelyhood, the Liberals and NDP will get destroyed in the by-election, but the fact that they won't even try is IMO insulting to rural Canadians. Do the tories not put up signs in hard left ridings such as downtown WInnipeg?

I and probably the average voter do not know who the Liberal and NDP candidates are.

If SmallC has found any signs, I would like to know, because this is one instance where I would like to eat crow.

[nicky10013]

Driving across Western Manitoba this past weekend, I have seen a disturbing thing. There is a by-election coming soon, and I have not yet seen any Liberal or NDP signs. Not even a couple, I am talking zero. For a national party, wanting to represent all Canadians, I think that is proposterous and hypocritical. Ignatieff looks like a hypocrite for saying he wants to reach out to rural Canada and fix the Liberal brand there, and yet does not even have the stones to even put up signs. Jack Layton is in the same boat is Ignatieff.

In all likelyhood, the Liberals and NDP will get destroyed in the by-election, but the fact that they won't even try is IMO insulting to rural Canadians. Do the tories not put up signs in hard left ridings such as downtown WInnipeg?

I and probably the average voter do not know who the Liberal and NDP candidates are.

If SmallC has found any signs, I would like to know, because this is one instance where I would like to eat crow.

Ignatieff doesn't run local elections personally, you know. Politics in this country is still very much done on a volunteer basis. Campaigns for general MP elections are organised per the riding association. For by-elections the party will generally send out some staffers to do door to door work but in the end, when you look at the sheer political outlook of the riding and the money it costs to run a campaign, it may not be wise to dump that much cash into it.

A conservative such as yourself may look at that as a spit in the face to rural Canada, but it's just politics. It doesn't mean Ignatieff's rural policies are bad (they might be, I haven't read them), but that's just the political reality. I live in the 905 and the CPC dumps tonnes of money into suburbia and during an election there are signs EVERYWHERE around where I live because the ridings were in play. I went to school at the St. George Campus in downtown Toronto and nothing was to be seen. We organized a debate for the local candidates in Toronto Centre and the Conservative candidate didn't even bother to show up. He was blown out of the water by 30 points. Foregone conclusion and everyone knew it.

Does that mean Stephen Harper hates cities? I don't agree with his policies but he hasn't exactly left cities to rot. If we're going to be asking whether or not politicians care, we should be looking at their policies and not how many signs volunteers can put up. Let's remember most signs go on private property and have to be requested. Considering that it's a solidly Conservative riding, one can assume that they won't be requested. Also, considering the Dauphin-Swan River-Marquette looks to be almost the size of Southern Ontario...well...I'd be surprised you'd see many signs to begin with.

I'd more argue that the lack of signs means the party believes that they can't win the election. Does it mean they don't care? Absolutely not. A ridiculous notion.

Edited November 16, 2010 by nicky10013

[Bonam]

Signs are hardly important nowadays. This is the 21st century after all. Physical words written on physical material posted on a physical piece of wood on someone's land? That is so last millennium.

[Shakeyhands]

Does that mean Stephen Harper hates cities?

As an aside.... I think that answer to that would be an emphatic yes. It must drive him bonkers that most city folk see through his facade, what with them being the elitists that they are and all.

[Wild Bill]

Ignatieff doesn't run local elections personally, you know. Politics in this country is still very much done on a volunteer basis. Campaigns for general MP elections are organised per the riding association. For by-elections the party will generally send out some staffers to do door to door work but in the end, when you look at the sheer political outlook of the riding and the money it costs to run a campaign, it may not be wise to dump that much cash into it.

A conservative such as yourself may look at that as a spit in the face to rural Canada, but it's just politics. It doesn't mean Ignatieff's rural policies are bad (they might be, I haven't read them), but that's just the political reality. I live in the 905 and the CPC dumps tonnes of money into suburbia and during an election there are signs EVERYWHERE around where I live because the ridings were in play. I went to school at the St. George Campus in downtown Toronto and nothing was to be seen. We organized a debate for the local candidates in Toronto Centre and the Conservative candidate didn't even bother to show up. He was blown out of the water by 30 points. Foregone conclusion and everyone knew it.

Does that mean Stephen Harper hates cities? I don't agree with his policies but he hasn't exactly left cities to rot. If we're going to be asking whether or not politicians care, we should be looking at their policies and not how many signs volunteers can put up. Let's remember most signs go on private property and have to be requested. Considering that it's a solidly Conservative riding, one can assume that they won't be requested. Also, considering the Dauphin-Swan River-Marquette looks to be almost the size of Southern Ontario...well...I'd be surprised you'd see many signs to begin with.

I'd more argue that the lack of signs means the party believes that they can't win the election. Does it mean they don't care? Absolutely not. A ridiculous notion.

For once, I have to agree with Nicky. In fact, I couldn't have said it better myself!

I would only add that the Tories are much richer than the other parties and can afford to "raise the flag" in ridings where they have only a slim to none chance. They developed their fundraising techniques during their Reform Party days. Their demographic seems much more prepared to "put their money where their mouth is". Forgive me but I can't resist saying that the other parties's supporters seem perpetually prepared to "take the money out of other people's mouths"!

With the new laws about getting your donations directly from the people and not large organizations the Tories have enjoyed a huge advantage.

So you have a riding where the Liberals and NDP don't see much of a chance, have to watch their pennies anyway and have few folks even ASKING for signs on their lawns - as Nicky has pointed out.

Seems to me like you're carping at someone with no legs for not dancing for you!

[Bob]

I agree with the posts above, as I'm not convinced that little-to-no campaigning in smaller towns and cities is exactly the same as not giving a damn about rural Canada. I think it sends a message, though, perhaps inadvertently. The most important component to an accurate evaluation of how much one party cares about rural issues would be a more in-depth examination of what they've done (or not done) for rural Canada. Check the left's record when in power and out of power, at both the federal and provincial levels.

Edited November 16, 2010 by Bob

[nicky10013]

As an aside.... I think that answer to that would be an emphatic yes. It must drive him bonkers that most city folk see through his facade, what with them being the elitists that they are and all.

He can't really hate cities. After all, his riding is in Calgary. I think he hates certain cities, but even he realizes that despite this he's got to pony up some money once in a while.

[nicky10013]

For once, I have to agree with Nicky. In fact, I couldn't have said it better myself!

I would only add that the Tories are much richer than the other parties and can afford to "raise the flag" in ridings where they have only a slim to none chance. They developed their fundraising techniques during their Reform Party days. Their demographic seems much more prepared to "put their money where their mouth is". Forgive me but I can't resist saying that the other parties's supporters seem perpetually prepared to "take the money out of other people's mouths"!

With the new laws about getting your donations directly from the people and not large organizations the Tories have enjoyed a huge advantage.

So you have a riding where the Liberals and NDP don't see much of a chance, have to watch their pennies anyway and have few folks even ASKING for signs on their lawns - as Nicky has pointed out.

Seems to me like you're carping at someone with no legs for not dancing for you!

I wouldn't say it's rich versus poor. You're completely right that the Conservatives have been making a lot more money than the Liberals or the NDP, but in a world where a party can only spend a certain amount of money, at a certain point that fundraising gap doesn't matter. Unfortunately for the CPC, that time was gone about a year ago. The LPC has paid off the debt on it's last campaign and currently has enough funs on hand to spend to the cap for the next election. If money mattered to the extent you're arguing, just because the Tories are rich, downtown Toronto would've been painted blue.

[Evening Star]

Adding to the chorus, you never see Conservative signs in Windsor. However, I think there might be a case to be made that the CPC does hate union labour, lower-class urban minorities, and students.

[William Ashley]

Ignatieff doesn't run local elections personally, you know. Politics in this country is still very much done on a volunteer basis. Campaigns for general MP elections are organised per the riding association......**** snip****

Unless it is the Conservative Party, in this case the upper administration does everything for you, even nominate the candidates.

[fellowtraveller]

I saw quite a few Conservative signs in downtwon Montreal in the 2006 campaign. Nearly all of them had been vandalized by respecters of the democratic process.

[nicky10013]

Unless it is the Conservative Party, in this case the upper administration does everything for you, even nominate the candidates.

Oh I know, I just didn't want to be rude.

[Alta4ever]

Unless it is the Conservative Party, in this case the upper administration does everything for you, even nominate the candidates.

You really have no clue.

[Wild Bill]

Unless it is the Conservative Party, in this case the upper administration does everything for you, even nominate the candidates.

Quelle surprise! They all do and have done for decades. Biggest drunk I ever met was the candidate the Liberals once parachuted into my riding.

To my knowledge, the only party that took a stand about this practice was the Reform Party. They strongly believed that the grassroots in any riding should vote on their candidates at a nomination meeting. Afterwards, there were a few times when some KKK type was trying to sneak in and got caught with his pillow case on his head. These were immediately tossed out. One time the discovery came too late to come up with another candidate so Reform let that riding go unopposed. I found it a significant sign of character that the Liberal candidate in the same riding also got exposed in scandal but the Liberals ran with him anyway, saying "What were we supposed to do? There's no time to get another candidate!"

Of course, after the PCs and Reform/Alliance merged this idea couldn't get buried fast enough! Just one more sign that the tiny PC rump actually took over the larger party, at least as far as philosophy goes.

Once again, I wonder why Manning ever bothered.

[nicky10013]

You really have no clue.

It's very much the truth.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/890282--fantino-needs-to-tell-voters-where-he-stands-critics-say

http://www.stalbertgazette.com/article/GB/20101102/CP02/311029758/-1/SAG0806/former-mp-inky-mark-blasts-tory-nomination-process-as-undemocratic&template=cpArt

[nicky10013]

Quelle surprise! They all do and have done for decades. Biggest drunk I ever met was the candidate the Liberals once parachuted into my riding.

To my knowledge, the only party that took a stand about this practice was the Reform Party. They strongly believed that the grassroots in any riding should vote on their candidates at a nomination meeting. Afterwards, there were a few times when some KKK type was trying to sneak in and got caught with his pillow case on his head. These were immediately tossed out. One time the discovery came too late to come up with another candidate so Reform let that riding go unopposed. I found it a significant sign of character that the Liberal candidate in the same riding also got exposed in scandal but the Liberals ran with him anyway, saying "What were we supposed to do? There's no time to get another candidate!"

Of course, after the PCs and Reform/Alliance merged this idea couldn't get buried fast enough! Just one more sign that the tiny PC rump actually took over the larger party, at least as far as philosophy goes.

Once again, I wonder why Manning ever bothered.

The Liberals and Conservatives do both do it. Funny, only one party argues against doing it. I've seen many Conservatives here make fun of the Liberals and their undemocratic ways. Yet more hypocrisy.

[Michael Hardner]

The Liberals and Conservatives do both do it. Funny, only one party argues against doing it. I've seen many Conservatives here make fun of the Liberals and their undemocratic ways. Yet more hypocrisy.

They also complain about spending, but rural Canada is generally a recipient of tax revenue. This was already explored on another thread about North Ontario.

[pfezziwig]

You hit the nail on the head. The Liberals and NDP do not like independent people who can take care of themselves in a sustainable manner. They prefer champagne socialists (rich public sector), selfish and near sighted incompetent dolts that need government to manage their lives, financed by stealing from the future and taxing competent individuals in rural canada.

[blueblood]

Ignatieff doesn't run local elections personally, you know. Politics in this country is still very much done on a volunteer basis. Campaigns for general MP elections are organised per the riding association. For by-elections the party will generally send out some staffers to do door to door work but in the end, when you look at the sheer political outlook of the riding and the money it costs to run a campaign, it may not be wise to dump that much cash into it.

A conservative such as yourself may look at that as a spit in the face to rural Canada, but it's just politics. It doesn't mean Ignatieff's rural policies are bad (they might be, I haven't read them), but that's just the political reality. I live in the 905 and the CPC dumps tonnes of money into suburbia and during an election there are signs EVERYWHERE around where I live because the ridings were in play. I went to school at the St. George Campus in downtown Toronto and nothing was to be seen. We organized a debate for the local candidates in Toronto Centre and the Conservative candidate didn't even bother to show up. He was blown out of the water by 30 points. Foregone conclusion and everyone knew it.

Does that mean Stephen Harper hates cities? I don't agree with his policies but he hasn't exactly left cities to rot. If we're going to be asking whether or not politicians care, we should be looking at their policies and not how many signs volunteers can put up. Let's remember most signs go on private property and have to be requested. Considering that it's a solidly Conservative riding, one can assume that they won't be requested. Also, considering the Dauphin-Swan River-Marquette looks to be almost the size of Southern Ontario...well...I'd be surprised you'd see many signs to begin with.

I'd more argue that the lack of signs means the party believes that they can't win the election. Does it mean they don't care? Absolutely not. A ridiculous notion.

I can see where your coming from, as its the accounting side of the issue. Do we put money into a place where we know we will get anhialated in an election. That I understand. In fairness to the Libs and NDP they put signs up in the general election, however not this one.

What I don't understand is that if Ignatieff during his tenure is making speeches of how to fix the Liberal Brand in rural Canada, yet his gnomes aren't advertising their candidate in the by-election. My point was about optics and it looks horrible. Signs are not that expensive, in western Manitoba most political signs are placed in the ditch beside the road (public property), and the green party with even a smaller war chest than both the Libs and NDP have signs put up. To go along the entire western half of hwy. 16 and not see any Lib/NDP sign is not good optics.

The Liberal Brand is pretty much toast in rural Western Canada. Before Trudeau, Liberals had a shot at winning ridings, now its very slim pickings. To have a leader impose NEP which many westerners/economists believe was bad for Western Canada, and to have the PM and party leader literally give western Canadians the finger, results in a brand that is essentially tarnished if not crippled. If Harper was to go into downtown Toronto and give the people at the homeless shelter the finger and say "why should I feed you", the CPC brand would be toast in urban Canada and rightfully so. If I'm a CEO of a company trying to change/establish a brand, I wouldn't be alienating potential customers. The staffers might be the ones who actually do the work, but Ignatieff is the face of the franchise. If I were him I'd be upset with the staffers for making me look bad.

To me its not so much a matter as winning elections, its at least putting some kind of an effort, showing the rest of the country and other ridings that you are willing to compete, and are making some kind of an effort to represent them. If Harper doesn't put signs up in urban Canada, that's poor optics as well.

[blueblood]

They also complain about spending, but rural Canada is generally a recipient of tax revenue. This was already explored on another thread about North Ontario.

That would depend on what area and what type of rural resident. I can assure you that myself and other operations like me are doing our share of contributing to tax revenue.

If Urban residents are paying more than 16K for property tax, then I shall eat crow. Then there is corporate and personal income taxes, not to mention registration for semi's, dump trucks, trailers, and pickup trucks. Then my expenditures which help to increase the bottomline for various large companies that pay tax as well.

There are plenty of rural residents who are putting more than their share of kids through school. However the same goes for business owning urban residents. The problem is the "trailer trash" of both urban and rural areas which are a vacuum of tax receipts.

[charter.rights]

This OP supposes that Conservatives have a lock on rural communities. That would be a stretch since "the country" is the new liberal urban. Don't you know about all those liberals and socialist that are buying up all the farms (saving them from Conservative Corporations) and reinventing farming in a more gentler, softer and communal way. Just pick up a copy of Harrowsmith magazine and you'll find all kinds of liberals run the farm show.

[punked]

The Liberals only care if their is "splitting of the Filipino vote" in Winnipeg. The warn against those tricky conservatives running a female Filipino Candidate because as Mr. Ignatieff says their old male white candidate really is the one who should represent them. Never heard of something so insulting in all my life. A Liberal Party leader suggesting that a culture should vote as a block. The nerve.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/ignatieff-warns-against-splitting-filipino-vote-108106104.html?viewAllComments=y

[nicky10013]

I can see where your coming from, as its the accounting side of the issue. Do we put money into a place where we know we will get anhialated in an election. That I understand. In fairness to the Libs and NDP they put signs up in the general election, however not this one.

What I don't understand is that if Ignatieff during his tenure is making speeches of how to fix the Liberal Brand in rural Canada, yet his gnomes aren't advertising their candidate in the by-election. My point was about optics and it looks horrible. Signs are not that expensive, in western Manitoba most political signs are placed in the ditch beside the road (public property), and the green party with even a smaller war chest than both the Libs and NDP have signs put up. To go along the entire western half of hwy. 16 and not see any Lib/NDP sign is not good optics.

The Liberal Brand is pretty much toast in rural Western Canada. Before Trudeau, Liberals had a shot at winning ridings, now its very slim pickings. To have a leader impose NEP which many westerners/economists believe was bad for Western Canada, and to have the PM and party leader literally give western Canadians the finger, results in a brand that is essentially tarnished if not crippled. If Harper was to go into downtown Toronto and give the people at the homeless shelter the finger and say "why should I feed you", the CPC brand would be toast in urban Canada and rightfully so. If I'm a CEO of a company trying to change/establish a brand, I wouldn't be alienating potential customers. The staffers might be the ones who actually do the work, but Ignatieff is the face of the franchise. If I were him I'd be upset with the staffers for making me look bad.

To me its not so much a matter as winning elections, its at least putting some kind of an effort, showing the rest of the country and other ridings that you are willing to compete, and are making some kind of an effort to represent them. If Harper doesn't put signs up in urban Canada, that's poor optics as well.

Harper is toast in Urban Canada as people rightfully think that a lot of his policies ARE giving them the finger.

As for effort:

http://kevinlamoureux.liberal.ca/

http://bcinto.blogspot.com/2010/11/lamoureux-and-ignatieff-chat-with-2100.html

Again with the signs. Signs don't win elections.

[blueblood]

Harper is toast in Urban Canada as people rightfully think that a lot of his policies ARE giving them the finger.

As for effort:

http://kevinlamoureux.liberal.ca/

http://bcinto.blogspot.com/2010/11/lamoureux-and-ignatieff-chat-with-2100.html

Again with the signs. Signs don't win elections.

Having policies that people disagree with is not literally giving them the finger. Harper believes his policies will help urban people, it's hard to market a policy different from the Robin Hood policies of the Canadian left which is essentially rob from the rich and give to the poor. That's a marketing nightmare. I wouldn't say Harper is toast in urban Canada due to the gains he made in the last election. I'd almost say he would have had Quebec in the bag had he not said he was going to slash arts funding in the middle of a campaign.

If you can't communicate properly as a politician or party, then your toast. The Liberals found that out in Western Canada, and the Tories found that out in Quebec.

Had Harper treated urban Canadians in the matter Trudeau treated Western Canadians, the CPC would have to spend years rebranding and blowing up the party.

As for the signs, the Libs and NDP finally decided to put some up. Maybe they were reading here...

[Keepitsimple]

Harper is toast in Urban Canada as people rightfully think that a lot of his policies ARE giving them the finger.

Quite the opposite Nicky.....Rob Ford proved that there are many urbanites who are fed up with the Champagne Socialists. He's also substantiated the fact that New Canadians are overwhelmingly Conservative (Ford handily won the immigrant vote). So....expect a huge push by the Federal Conservatives to win seats in Toronto. Toronto is where the Liberals will be vulnerable - Ford has raised the Conservative profile - Ignatieff has done nothing....and McGuinty has damaged the Liberal brand even more than Ignatieff's confused leadership.