If you thought new fighters are expensive

[William Ashley]

Me and some of my colleges where discussing our military carears today, and all of have but a few regrets but the only one that had a common thread was this....How tight the Canadian people .....

I think what it is - that about 50% of Canadians don't feel a real immanent threat to Canada - or expect America to 'save canada' if anything "serious" actually happens - see Canada gave money to things like businesses and party supporters - rather than devoting things to a military after the Korean war, and the trend ha continued since then. 10 billion is still 1 dollar for every 25 spent and the military comprises perhaps 1 in every 300 people in canada. That means its takes 12 people to support one solider in Canada (check my math). This isn't a tight this is a how many people are there - you can have a million soilders with spoons or 10 with f35s. What is a more active deterrent to threats to Canada?

The point here is that - the Canadian military needs to build the industrial base, it needs to improve the resource base, it needs to developed, engineer and repair - and create their own equipment. I think that that person in the bathtub should be able to improve the bathtub, and that kite can maybe hold a hand grenade instead of an adrenaline junky, or I forget the other one, but the point is that stupid soliders die in the line of fire - and that ain't saying soliders who die are stupid - it is probably more inrelation to bad luck and circumstnaces - but you have to quesiton was that solider needed there for the purpose of Canadian defence - an annexed Canada isn't a sovereign Canada.

This is why I support private self funded militias - government supported and oversighted, to increase intelligence and capacitization. This is why I support funding our soliders for startups, this is why I support offseting defence costs by giving soliiders better pay - and attracting more skilled professionals by giving them share in the economic projects they take partt in. This is why I support including technology development and engineering in the training time for professional soliders. Only a person lacking intelligence would settle for a kite, unless it is what htey need, we have better resources - but a kite is still an effective weapon - there are more effective weapon but a weapon is distnict in the form of jujitsu - anything can be turned into a weapon even the body - the real weapon is the mind that weilds it..

[Topaz]

I found this following article titled, "F-35 stealth fighter spy cover-up". Apparently, a spy for Israel, US born civilian intelligence analyst, Jonathan Pollard gave ALL the secret to this fighter, and Israel, Russia and China know all, so this jet is worth nothing because all the secrets of this jet is out. Pollard is in prison now, but can get parole in 2015. The thing is the US has know about this and has covered it up and still out there trying to sell it. http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/11/02/national-security-alert-f-35-stealth-fighter-spy-cover-up/

[William Ashley]

I found this following article titled, "F-35 stealth fighter spy cover-up". Apparently, a spy for Israel, US born civilian intelligence analyst, Jonathan Pollard gave ALL the secret to this fighter, and Israel, Russia and China know all, so this jet is worth nothing because all the secrets of this jet is out. Pollard is in prison now, but can get parole in 2015. The thing is the US has know about this and has covered it up and still out there trying to sell it. http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/11/02/national-security-alert-f-35-stealth-fighter-spy-cover-up/

Yeah cause you can't change designs after a leak. its a pretty good plane from what I know - the only thing I'm not convinced on is the amount of upkeep and how much service time it needs for effectiveness especially if regular coatings are involved. There are cheaper alternatives sure - but are they good enough to take on Russia or Chinas next fighter for export or themselves.

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/08/11/ge-pitches-hill-on-f136s-upkeep/

Edited November 3, 2010 by William Ashley

[M.Dancer]

I found this following article titled, "F-35 stealth fighter spy cover-up". Apparently, a spy for Israel, US born civilian intelligence analyst, Jonathan Pollard gave ALL the secret to this fighter, and Israel, Russia and China know all, so this jet is worth nothing because all the secrets of this jet is out. Pollard is in prison now, but can get parole in 2015. The thing is the US has know about this and has covered it up and still out there trying to sell it. http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/11/02/national-security-alert-f-35-stealth-fighter-spy-cover-up/

Pollard was arrested in 1985. Unless he was used time travel or had a talking toaster...

I suugest you wrap the tinfoil tighter...

[wyly]

Yeah cause you can't change designs after a leak. its a pretty good plane from what I know - the only thing I'm not convinced on is the amount of upkeep and how much service time it needs for effectiveness especially if regular coatings are involved. There are cheaper alternatives sure - but are they good enough to take on Russia or Chinas next fighter for export or themselves.

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/08/11/ge-pitches-hill-on-f136s-upkeep/

we have had several "experts" (Yeggman, Moonbox)come on here and tell us the Russians are 10-20 yrs behind(if ever) in developing/countering stealth technology, if that's the case a Super Hornet will do just fine as it's as good if not better than anything they develop for themselves or for export...

[Army Guy]

I think what it is - that about 50% of Canadians don't feel a real immanent threat to Canada - or expect America to 'save canada' if anything "serious" actually happens

Canadians can't have it both ways, they can't talk about sovereignty and being everything except American, then out of the sides of their mouths let Uncle Sam protect us from the bad guys....Kind of like picking out a new car and lettting your neibor foot the bill, while you drive it around town...and if thats OK with you they don't be surprised when they start making the rules as that is the price you pay.....

- see Canada gave money to things like businesses and party supporters - rather than devoting things to a military after the Korean war, and the trend ha continued since then. 10 billion is still 1 dollar for every 25 spent and the military comprises perhaps 1 in every 300 people in canada. That means its takes 12 people to support one solider in Canada (check my math). This isn't a tight this is a how many people are there - you can have a million soilders with spoons or 10 with f35s. What is a more active deterrent to threats to Canada?

1.3 % of GDP is tight, when put in context of the bils we piss away for nothing, example Winter games, G8 conference etc etc...and how much we pay for other programs that are not world class, but should be for the amount we pay into them, example health care, education.

[Smallc]

1.3 % of GDP is tight, when put in context of the bils we piss away for nothing, example Winter games, G8 conference etc etc...and how much we pay for other programs that are not world class, but should be for the amount we pay into them, example health care, education.

I don't really consider you a good judge of this. Canadians are some of the longest lived and most educated people in the world, so it seems that the systems are world class. I would also point out that if you don't do anything as a country, such as hosting a major sporting event, being part of an important international organization, or restoring some of your most treasured buildings, then what's the use of protecting the country. If you stand for nothing, and take part in nothing, then you might as well wither away.

I would also point out that the current funding level of 1.4% of GDP is below some other places, but the same as other fiscally responsible countries, like Germany, and one of our closest economic peers (in terms of economic power), Spain.

[Topaz]

Pollard was arrested in 1985. Unless he was used time travel or had a talking toaster...

I suugest you wrap the tinfoil tighter...

Dancer, go to the following website and check for yourself. The info. is under "sentencing and incarceration" or above "appeals" It says, his projected release is Nov.21,2015 and he was eligible for parole 8 years and six months after sentencing but he didn't take it and he was sentence on Mar.4, 1987. Keep your tinfoil. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

[M.Dancer]

Dancer, go to the following website and check for yourself. The info. is under "sentencing and incarceration" or above "appeals" It says, his projected release is Nov.21,2015 and he was eligible for parole 8 years and six months after sentencing but he didn't take it and he was sentence on Mar.4, 1987. Keep your tinfoil. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

Sure....how again was he supposed to have access to F-35 secrets when there was no F-35..in 1985 or 1987?

Maybe you should read your own stuff Topaz, the article doesn't claim Pollard did the alledged spying....it merely insinuates that the "isreali" citizen was the most succesful spy evah!

[Army Guy]

I don't really consider you a good judge of this. Canadians are some of the longest lived and most educated people in the world, so it seems that the systems are world class.

Really , because we have different opinions on the military, And whuile we may be some of the longest lived and most educated people on the planet (your quote) are you saying we are getting the best bang for our buck, because there are lots of countries out there doing it better for alot cheaper....

I would also point out that if you don't do anything as a country, such as hosting a major sporting event, being part of an important international organization, or restoring some of your most treasured buildings, then what's the use of protecting the country. If you stand for nothing, and take part in nothing, then you might as well wither away.

So your OK with a BIL plus spent on security for the games, and a Bil Plus spent on security for the G-8....and that it could not have been done for cheaper....

I would also point out that the current funding level of 1.4% of GDP is below some other places, but the same as other fiscally responsible countries, like Germany, and one of our closest economic peers (in terms of economic power), Spain.

You can't compare Canada to Germany or Spain, GDP's don't match nor does the populations, or the size of their militarys, Nor have there militaries been eroded for 10 years and need to be rebuilt....

[dre]

Really , because we have different opinions on the military, And whuile we may be some of the longest lived and most educated people on the planet (your quote) are you saying we are getting the best bang for our buck, because there are lots of countries out there doing it better for alot cheaper....

So your OK with a BIL plus spent on security for the games, and a Bil Plus spent on security for the G-8....and that it could not have been done for cheaper....

You can't compare Canada to Germany or Spain, GDP's don't match nor does the populations, or the size of their militarys, Nor have there militaries been eroded for 10 years and need to be rebuilt....

Doesnt matter. The bottom line is we are broke. Every area of spending should get less than they would ideally want. Once we have a balanced budget then we can look at mega-spending such as this.

[Smallc]

Doesnt matter. The bottom line is we are broke. Every area of spending should get less than they would ideally want. Once we have a balanced budget then we can look at mega-spending such as this.

Exactly. The military is no different than any other department. Well, actually, it is different in that is has the largest budget of any federal department. Everyone always wants more. That doesn't mean that they should get it at the expense of something else.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Smallc

[Smallc]

Really , because we have different opinions on the military, And whuile we may be some of the longest lived and most educated people on the planet (your quote) are you saying we are getting the best bang for our buck, because there are lots of countries out there doing it better for alot cheaper....

Some countries do healthcare cheaper, that's true. It doesn't change the fact of Canada's results.

So your OK with a BIL plus spent on security for the games, and a Bil Plus spent on security for the G-8....and that it could not have been done for cheaper....

How could it have been done for cheaper? Most of the security competent was (and would have been irregardless) made up of police. We don't generally use the military for crowd control in Canada. They were used to patrol the skies, the water, and the back woods, but they weren't the big part of the security cost, and what they did didn't seem to stretch them too much.

You can't compare Canada to Germany or Spain, GDP's don't match nor does the populations, or the size of their militarys, Nor have there militaries been eroded for 10 years and need to be rebuilt....

So you try to move the target again. Canada and spain have very similar GDPs, though populations are not the same. Why do you always compare us to the US, France and The UK? Populations and GDPs certainly don't match.

[Army Guy]

Doesnt matter. The bottom line is we are broke. Every area of spending should get less than they would ideally want. Once we have a balanced budget then we can look at mega-spending such as this.

We are not broke, Really let me ask you this, when the military Budget and Civ service pension fund raided to pay down debt and bal budgets was every other area slashed. We have just begun to rebuild the damage done, and already you've lost interest.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Army Guy

[Smallc]

Really let me ask you this, when the military Budget and Civ service pension fund raided to pay down debt and bal budgets was every other area slashed.

Let me answer this - YES.

[xul]

I understand it takes alot to run this country and right now defense is not on the top of the list....

I think these are not the essential of the problem. Don't you think the US should take a lot to run the other fields of the country and defense should no longer be on the top of the list after the Cold War? But just as what we have seen, the US still spends heavily in building and purchasing expensive new weapon systems(most of them are useless becasue they are over-advanced and designed to fight the would-be future threats not enemies in reality) regardless that their finacial and civil industry sector collapsing.

The essential is that the US has strong military industry and the industry spends heavily on lobbying government, congress and public for the needs of "army guys"....or essentially, for the interests of themselves. Canada hasn't so many ammunition makers, so there is nobody lobbying for the military, and the rule of the game here is: no lobby, no fund, no arm.....

[wyly]

I think these are not the essential of the problem. Don't you think the US should take a lot to run the other fields of the country and defense should no longer be on the top of the list after the Cold War? But just as what we have seen, the US still spends heavily in building and purchasing expensive new weapon systems(most of them are useless becasue they are over-advanced and designed to fight the would-be future threats not enemies in reality) regardless that their finacial and civil industry sector collapsing.

The essential is that the US has strong military industry and the industry spends heavily on lobbying government, congress and public for the needs of "army guys"....or essentially, for the interests of themselves. Canada hasn't so many ammunition makers, so there is nobody lobbying for the military, and the rule of the game here is: no lobby, no fund, no arm.....

the usa also uses it's military and the industry connected to it as employment generators...without it there would be millions more unemployed...the entire economic system of the US is limping toward bankruptcy just as every military empire before it, collapse is inevitable...

[bush_cheney2004]

....The essential is that the US has strong military industry and the industry spends heavily on lobbying government, congress and public for the needs of "army guys"....or essentially, for the interests of themselves. Canada hasn't so many ammunition makers, so there is nobody lobbying for the military, and the rule of the game here is: no lobby, no fund, no arm.....

Canada has lobbyists in the US for many industries, including military defense contracts. There are many Canadian subsidiaries of American arms manufacturers as well as Canadian owned companies that lobby for lucrative defense contracts. During the Vietnam War, Canada made billions manufacturing napalm, defoliants, explosives, engines, etc. Like minded and very profitable activity continues today.

[xul]

Canada has lobbyists in the US for many industries, including military defense contracts. There are many Canadian subsidiaries of American arms manufacturers as well as Canadian owned companies that lobby for lucrative defense contracts. During the Vietnam War, Canada made billions manufacturing napalm, defoliants, explosives, engines, etc. Like minded and very profitable activity continues today.

The fact that almost all American tanks, planes and warships are powered by Arabian oil doesn't mean that Arabian will support US's war in Iraq. If you were the CEO of a Canada company which produces undercarriages for F-35s, how much money would you like to lobby Obama to resist the lure of "buying American"(that means the orders of thousands of your products ), and how much would you like to lobby Harper to buy a few extra planes for his army guys?(that means only a few of extra orders to you)

[Wilber]

Not really, The US imports twice as much oil from Canada than it does from Saudi Arabia and more than from all the Arab countries combined.

[bush_cheney2004]

The fact that almost all American tanks, planes and warships are powered by Arabian oil doesn't mean that Arabian will support US's war in Iraq.....

Even if this was true (it's not as described above), you would still be wrong...here's why:

Supported US locations in the Middle East

US Bases in Kuwait

Ali Al Salem AB

Camp Arifjan

Camp Buehring

Camp Doha

Camp Fox

Camp Navistar

Camp New York

Camp Patriot

Camp Spearhead

Camp Victory

Camp Virginia

Camp Wolf

the Middle East IAP [KCIA]

the Middle East Naval Base

the Middle East Navy Base

Udairi Range

US Army

Camp Big Sky Oasis

Camp Champion

Camp Fox

Camp Guardian

Camp Lancer

Camp Maine

Camp New Jersey

Camp New York

Camp Pennsylvania

Camp Spearhead

Camp Victory

Camp Virginia

Camp Wolf

US Marine Corps

Camp Betio

Camp Commando

Camp Coyote

Camp Matilda

Camp Pelelieu

Camp Ripper

Camp Ryan

Camp Shoup

Camp Soloman Islands

US Bases in Saudi Arabia

Dammam

Dhahran AB

Eskan Village

Hofuf

Jeddah AB

Jeddah

Jubail

Khamis Mushayt AB

Khobar Towers

King Khalid Military City

Prince Sultan AB

Riyadh AB

Tabuk AB

Taif AB

Yanbu

Khobar Towers

King Khalid Military City

Prince Sultan AB

Riyadh AB

Tabuk AB

Taif AB

Yanbu

US Bases in United Arab Emirates

Al Dhafra AB

Fujairah

Fujairah IAP

Jebel Ali

Mina Zayed

Port Rashid

US Bases in Bahrain

Manama

Mina Salman

Muharraq

Shaikh Isa AB

US Bases in Oman

Masirah AB

Mina Qabus

Muscat

Al Musnana AB

Seeb AB

Thumrait AB

Salalah

US Bases in Qatar

Al Udeid AB

Camp Snoopy

Camp As Sayliyah QA

Doha

Doha IAP

Umm Said

Falcon-78 ASP

Mesaieed

[Army Guy]

Exactly. The military is no different than any other department. Well, actually, it is different in that is has the largest budget of any federal department. Everyone always wants more. That doesn't mean that they should get it at the expense of something else.

And why that may be true as of today, your comment is misleading how long has DND been the largest budget with the federal government. And while DND is the largest overall budget roughly 10 % of the federal intake, it is by far not the largest spender of federal funds...

Your last comment confuses me, on one side of your month you say " That doesn't mean that they should get it at the expense of something else." And yet i've clearly pionted out that DND military budget has taken a lions share of % of cuts in regards to the other federal depts, or any other Federal program. And the civil service pension fund was raided to the tune of over 25 bil, and yet nobody else was touched , did your pension fund get robed of it's so called surpluses, correct me if i'm wrong, but you did say "it should not be done at the expense of others.....or is that just advice just to include the military.....

Let me answer this - YES.

Perhaps you can list those depts and governmental funded services that were cut on the same lines as the military.....

So you try to move the target again. Canada and spain have very similar GDPs, though populations are not the same. Why do you always compare us to the US, France and The UK? Populations and GDPs certainly don't match.

I'm not moving them you are, Germanys, does spend 1.3 % GDP, but what you fail to list what dollar value that represents, almost 38 bil....But they also have close to 250,000 troops under arms.... Spain does also spend 1.2 GDP, and in 2009 spent 17.7 Bil dollars on defence, with Active Military Personnel: 177,000 [2008] Active Military Reserve: 328,500 [2008] Active Paramilitary Units: 72,600 [2008]

Nether country faces the same problems as our military does, nor does their budgets break down the same, so really one can not compare the two or three countries you chose if you want to compare apples with apples then fine...but your not.

[Smallc]

I'm not moving them you are, Germanys, does spend 1.3 % GDP, but what you fail to list what dollar value that represents, almost 38 bil....But they also have close to 250,000 troops under arms.... Spain does also spend 1.2 GDP, and in 2009 spent 17.7 Bil dollars on defence, with Active Military Personnel: 177,000 [2008] Active Military Reserve: 328,500 [2008] Active Paramilitary Units: 72,600 [2008]

No, you're the one moving the target. Total dollar value (we're 13th - not too bad) has nothing to do with percentage of GDP comparisons.

Nether country faces the same problems as our military does, nor does their budgets break down the same, so really one can not compare the two or three countries you chose if you want to compare apples with apples then fine...but your not.

Actually, all militaries face similar problems, because things are too expensive. You were the one who started comparing countries, so don't lecture me.

Oh, and yes, other departments suffered under huge cuts (some as high as 25%, including transport), and transfers to the provinces were cut by similar amounts. The military was cut just like everything else.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Smallc

[Army Guy]

No, you're the one moving the target. Total dollar value (we're 13th - not too bad) has nothing to do with percentage of GDP comparisons.

Yes it does have alot of to do with comparisons, take Japan for instance spends 1.4 of thier GDP on defense, which translates into well over 50 Bil. If Canada has a good year in the oil patch and our GDP, increase two fold does that mean DND gets more funding alotted , no they don't. what my piont is it all needs to be taken into context all the figures , not just one.

Actually, all militaries face similar problems, because things are too expensive. You were the one who started comparing countries, so don't lecture me.

Actually if you read the entire post you'll find I did'nt bring it up, some one else did and i was correcting him. And all militaries don't face the same problem, each nation has a completely different way in which they break their budgets down, what they pay for , how much they pay their soldiers, what benifits they get, what there missions and taskings are....for instance any military mission we go on is taken out of the DND budget, in most countries it is foreign affairs that pay for that, etc etc etc....All of that needs to be taken into context as well, then you'll get a clear picture on where our defense dollars go. and what is needed.

Oh, and yes, other departments suffered under huge cuts (some as high as 25%, including transport), and transfers to the provinces were cut by similar amounts. The military was cut just like everything else.

I think if you goggle it you'll find that DND is or was the top contender for dept cut backs in regards to the 10 plus years when they where slashing. and you'll still find evidence of cut backs today, in regards to new contracts being cut, almost all of them have been cut back, due to cut backs. And while DND has enjoyed being in the black for some time now so have all the rest of the Depts...

[dre]

If Canada has a good year in the oil patch and our GDP, increase two fold does that mean DND gets more funding alotted , no they don't.

Well they should... large discretionary purchases should happen when government revenues are strong, not when we are running a defecit. It makes no sense to borrow money for this type of spending unless it really is emergency spending, and this isnt. If you defecit finance these planes we will still be paying for them long after they have rusted into the ground.