capital punishment

[guyser]

Only to kill more??

Yes

[The_Squid]

Only to kill more??

That's an eroneous argument. Name any convict who would have received the death penalty who has been let go. I contend that there are none.

Those who would have received the death penalty are the ones that are spending the remainder of their lives in jail.

[Shakeyhands]

Which is rare but yes it does happen, that is where you just have to be sure like williams bernardo and olsen. But what about the 367 innocent people that have been murdered by people let out on parole since ''71''.

Were the people let out people that had been given life sentences?

[Michael Hardner]

That's an eroneous argument. Name any convict who would have received the death penalty who has been let go. I contend that there are none.

Northwestern University

However, at least 39 executions have been carried out in the United States in face of compelling evidence of innocence or serious doubt about guilt. While innocence has not been proven in any specific case, there is no reasonable doubt that some of the executed prisoners were innocent.

[Shakeyhands]

Interesting site....

Innocence & The Death Penalty

"Since 1973, 138 people in 26 states have been released from death row with evidence of their innocence"

US Stats obviously, but interesting nonetheless.

[The_Squid]

Northwestern University

Sorry... I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say...

Here it is using proper English:

I contend that no convict in Canada that would have been executed if we had the death penalty has been let go to kill again. These people are still in jail, and will be until they die.

[Saipan]

I contend that no convict in Canada that would have been executed if we had the death penalty has been let go to kill again. These people are still in jail, and will be until they die.

Not really. There are repeat offenders who killed. Even mass murderer is out after just ten years!

[Jerry J. Fortin]

No lets not bring it back. I don't trust the government enough to do that.

[The_Squid]

Not really. There are repeat offenders who killed.

Those repeat offenders probably didn't do something that would have got them the death penalty.

Even mass murderer is out after just ten years!

WHO?????????????

[ToadBrother]

No lets not bring it back. I don't trust the government enough to do that.

More importantly, I don't trust myself enough.

[Jack Weber]

We should'nt kill 'em on their way into the world and we should'nt be killin' them on the way out...

Nevermind the fact that people,or the state,might be involved in the execution of an innocent person...

For every Clifford Olson,Paul Bernardo,or,Robert Pickton...I can give you a David Milgaard,Donald Marshall,Stephen Truscott....

[ToadBrother]

We should'nt kill 'em on their way into the world and we should'nt be killin' them on the way out...

Nevermind the fact that people,or the state,might be involved in the execution of an innocent person...

For every Clifford Olson,Paul Bernardo,or,Robert Pickton...I can give you a David Milgaard,Donald Marshall,Stephen Truscott....

I've long said I'll support the death penalty providing that if the executed person is eventually found to be innocent; the judge, prosecutor, arresting officers and the jury are promptly taken out back and shot. Want an eye for an eye, well that should go both ways.

[Jack Weber]

I've long said I'll support the death penalty providing that if the executed person is eventually found to be innocent; the judge, prosecutor, arresting officers and the jury are promptly taken out back and shot. Want an eye for an eye, well that should go both ways.

Works for me...

Frankly,the death penalty seems far too easy...I'd rather see these people rot in a cell for 40 to 50 years of what's left of their miserable lives...

I suppose the LibertariCon response is the pat,"Who's gonna pay for it???"

Me,that's who!! I enjoy the knowledge that whatever Clifford Olson ever does,he's never getting out of that PC cell until he's dead!!!I'll gladly pay for that!!

[ToadBrother]

Works for me...

Frankly,the death penalty seems far too easy...I'd rather see these people rot in a cell for 40 to 50 years of what's left of their miserable lives...

I suppose the LibertariCon response is the pat,"Who's gonna pay for it???"

Me,that's who!! I enjoy the knowledge that whatever Clifford Olson ever does,he's never getting out of that PC cell until he's dead!!!I'll gladly pay for that!!

What I'd like to see is an end to the faint hope clause for the Olsen's of the world, and a permanent ban on concurrent sentencing for anything. Kill two people and get two first degree murder charges, see you in 50 years. Kill ten people, see you in 250 years.

[Smallc]

What I'd like to see is an end to the faint hope clause for the Olsen's of the world, and a permanent ban on concurrent sentencing for anything. Kill two people and get two first degree murder charges, see you in 50 years. Kill ten people, see you in 250 years.

I certainly support ending the faint hope clause (I believe there is legislation to do that working its way through now). The second idea may also be something to consider, though most of the people you're speaking of won't be let out in 25 years anyway.

[ToadBrother]

I certainly support ending the faint hope clause (I believe there is legislation to do that working its way through now). The second idea may also be something to consider, though most of the people you're speaking of won't be let out in 25 years anyway.

I'm not just thinking about murder, but also about the Bernie Madoffs of the world, as well. There's something comforting reading about some massive shyster getting a prison term that will exceed his lifespan.

But for multiple murders, I don't think the sentence should simply equate to the first victim, and screw the rest. It may not be applicable in first degree murder convictions, where it's a minimum 25 years, but for second degree murder, if a guy kills a couple of people, he's still on the 1/3 sentence rule for just the first one. Essentially any more than one conviction, save perhaps for applying for dangerous offender status, is meaningless. That's just wrong.

Edited October 22, 2010 by ToadBrother

[guyser]

I've long said I'll support the death penalty providing that if the executed person is eventually found to be innocent; the judge, prosecutor, arresting officers and the jury are promptly taken out back and shot. Want an eye for an eye, well that should go both ways.

Unfair.

The lead detective in the Guy Paul Morin case swears to this day that GPM is guilty.

Even though this cop was found to suppress evidence (for instance, Guy Paul never smoked but cig butts were found where the killing took place) and all sorts of crap came from the crooked bastard.

The judge can only hear the evidence put in front of him.

The Prosecutor.....well you might have a case there.

The jury cannot be held sine they may have never heard all the evidence for various reasons.

Watch the face of a jurist when after the fact they are told things they could not hear in the courtroom. You can almost see the wheels turning in their heads saying " why I outta..."

[ToadBrother]

Unfair.

The lead detective in the Guy Paul Morin case swears to this day that GPM is guilty.

Even though this cop was found to suppress evidence (for instance, Guy Paul never smoked but cig butts were found where the killing took place) and all sorts of crap came from the crooked bastard.

The judge can only hear the evidence put in front of him.

The Prosecutor.....well you might have a case there.

The jury cannot be held sine they may have never heard all the evidence for various reasons.

Watch the face of a jurist when after the fact they are told things they could not hear in the courtroom. You can almost see the wheels turning in their heads saying " why I outta..."

I don't particularly care. It would be unfair that an innocent man was sent to the gallows, so let those who put him there, wittingly or unwittingly, share the fate.

[DogOnPorch]

There are plenty more miserable ways to punish criminals than the common death penalty. Punishment battalions in Afghanistan for starters...why waste good troops clearing mines?

Wife (reading news): Hmmmm...says here both Willy Pickton and Clifford Olson died today after being used as sand bags during a Taliban attack.

DOP: Better them than real sand bags.

Wife: That's not all...the Taliban that did the shooting is being offered command at CFB Trenton.

[Saipan]

Those repeat offenders probably didn't do something that would have got them the death penalty.

'Cause we don't have one. Unfortunately.

WHO?????????????

Denis Lortie.

[August1991]

While many here will agree that thinking isn't my most obviously stand-out quality, I oppose the idea for three reasons (two of which are, I think, closely related):

1. The profound possibility of an error that can never be taken back, resulting in, literally, the worst injustice that can befall a person at the hand of the State;

2. It is the ultimate in statism and statist thought, giving the country (or a province, depending on how jurisdiction issues would work out) too much power. There is no bigger government than that which can put its citizens to death;

3. Killing a human being when not justified by necessity is a moral wrong, apart from what this person himself has committed.

All fine and good.

But reading the various reports of this Russell Williams case, I wondered whether he would have done what he did if he knew that he would suffer death when caught.

Rather, he seemed relieved to have been caught, knowing that he will still live. (I know that he attempted suicide in prison but that was after he was caught. He didn't attempt suicide before the police arrested him.)

-----

I have no moral qualms about the State condoning death. We accept abortion, and order soldiers to kill on our behalf. If the State mistakenly kills an innocent prisoner, how is that different from leaving a highway in disrepair where fatal accidents sometimes occur (and the State in effect kills innocent drivers)?

IMHO, the issue is incentives: would capital punishment (the death penalty) prevent future suffering? That is, would potential killers leave a victim alive if death meant capital punishment? If so, we should impose capital punishment.

Apparently, Russell Williams chose to kill his victims rather than let them live because he realized that the penalty for rape (in his case) was no different from the penalty for murder.

IOW, when the State imposes the same penalty for robbery and murder, is it any wonder that robbers murder their victims.

-----

This case is intriguing because of the evident calculations of Russell Williams.

I tend to think that people by nature are calculators; but some are better at math than others. IOW, some people simply don't know how to add what is good and what is bad.

Edited October 22, 2010 by August1991

[dre]

The problem with capital punishment is that theres no competent body to administer it.

[August1991]

The problem with capital punishment is that theres no competent body to administer it.

Is there a "competent body" to decide when our military kills people, abortion, how we fix our roads or, in Canada, how we decide hospital waiting lists?

dre, you wish for a democratic government, to use the power of the State, to do good.

Yet, the State, inadvertently, kills people every day. Heck, we in Canada live well while accepting that others die abroad, in Haiti, for example.

dre, the question is not to find a "competent body" to decide. The question is to understand how people will play and turn and game the "competent body". IOW, it's about incentives.

Edited October 22, 2010 by August1991

[dre]

Is there a "competent body" to decide when our military kills people, abortion, how we fix our roads or, in Canada, how we decide hospital waiting lists?

The State, inadvertently, kills people every day. Heck, we in Canada live well while accepting that others die abroad, in Haiti, for example.

dre, the question is not to find a "competent body" to decide. The question is to understand how people will play and turn and game the "competent body". IOW, it's about incentives.

Is there a "competent body" to decide when our military kills people

Not really, which is why it almost never should.

abortion

The mother and her doctor are good enough for me.

how we fix our roads or

Good point. Want a bunch of guys that cant even fix the pothole in front of your house to decide if you live or die?

dre, the question is not to find a "competent body" to decide. The question is to understand how people will play and turn and game the "competent body". IOW, it's about incentives.

The death penalty doesnt provide any incentives. Its not a deterent to crime in fact its often the opposite. It also costs a lot more to execute someone than it does to incarcerate for life.

It is a policy with absolutely no redeeming qualities what so ever.

dre, the question is not to find a "competent body" to decide

Actually for a LOT of people that IS one of the big questions. People look at our "pay for play" crapshoot criminal justice system, and it just doesnt inspire a whole lot of confidence.

[August1991]

The death penalty doesnt provide any incentives. Its not a deterent to crime in fact its often the opposite.

Data? Proof?

Dre, I think you are wrong. And this case of Russell Williams is an example. But I would be the first to accept that, as another poster once said, anecdote is not plural for data.

Let's debate capital punishment, with an open mind.

Actually for a LOT of people that IS one of the big questions. People look at our "pay for play" crapshoot criminal justice system, and it just doesnt inspire a whole lot of confidence.

dre, perhaps you think that a LOT of people seek direction.

I don't.

I tend to think that ordinary people are smart and have a good moral compass in deciding what is right. I'm a democrat.

---

I appreciate your "pay-for-play" reference. I have no problem with Crown Prosecutors negotiating plea bargains - but I strongly object to them selling the rest of us so cheap.

Edited October 22, 2010 by August1991