Merkel says multi-culturalism has absolutely failed in Germany

[Pat Coghlan]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/10/17/germany.merkel.multiculturalism/index.html?hpt=T2

[jbg]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/10/17/germany.merkel.multiculturalism/index.html?hpt=T2

I actually read the article and she's right. A country cannot allow people to "enclave" themselves and set themselves apart, at least in significant numbers. Multiculturalism is a suicidal policy.

[g_bambino]

I actually read the article and she's right. A country cannot allow people to "enclave" themselves and set themselves apart, at least in significant numbers. Multiculturalism is a suicidal policy.

I'm not sure why this thread is in this section, but...

I don't think there's only one kind of multiculturalism. Certainly, if a society is to last, it needs a common, cohesive set of values, principals, and beliefs; but, there's no reason other compatable cultures can't thrive interwoven into the larger construct. That's what I see the mosaic being analagous to; uniquely coloured elements bound together to form a discernable image by the same bed of grout. Ghettoisation, on the other hand, seems more akin to separate artworks within their own frames just happening to hang side by side on a wall.

[+]

Edited October 18, 2010 by g_bambino

[jbg]

I'm not sure why this thread is in this section, but...

I think he put it here as a commentary on Canada's multiculturalism.

I don't think there's only one kind of multiculturalism. Certainly, if a society is to last, it needs a common, cohesive set of values, principals, and beliefs; but, there's no reason other compatable cultures can't thrive interwoven into the larger construct. That's what I see the mosaic being analagous to; uniquely coloured elements bound together to form a discernable image by the same bed of grout. Ghettoisation, on the other hand, seems more akin to separate artworks within their own frames just happening to hang side by side on a wall.

[+]

I thnk the problem is with what you call "ghettoisation". The problem comes when groups such as Sikhs or Muslims come and insist on hewing to prior cultures and traditions. There are real problems when people bring even ceremonial swords to school. And insisting on separate legal systems, some of whose results in the real world are quite brutal.

The kind of immigrants a country needs are those willing to kiss the ground of the new country, learn the language and the culture. They don't need people who express and act out hatred for the new country.

[RNG]

The phrase "compatable cultures" leaves a lot to be desired. We are losing it. The US is losing it. Germany is losing it. France is in deep doo-doo. Don't know what the answer is but I fear for my grandkids.

[bush_cheney2004]

The phrase "compatable cultures" leaves a lot to be desired. We are losing it. The US is losing it. Germany is losing it. France is in deep doo-doo. Don't know what the answer is but I fear for my grandkids.

What are these countries "losing"? What is "it"?

[Michael Hardner]

Comparing Europe to America/Canada is fraught with problems for me.

Having lived in both places, I can attest to the fact that North America's systems create a natural melting pot, no matter how much government preaches multiculturalism and supports peoples retaining their culture.

European culture is more static. Your schooling, your background, and unions all provide for an inflexible social framework that lends itself to groups becoming isolated.

[Keepitsimple]

The difference between Canada's Multiculturalism and the Melting Pot is a subtle but important one. It's the message that we send - it's the longer term expectations for new Canadians. Our message (or lack of it) until recently has been "come to Canada and you can retain all your traditions and way of life". Our message (again, or lack of it) has put no emphasis on the counter-point - we want to accept you and learn from your culture - but we expect you and most importantly, your children, to learn to embrace our history and culture and over time - both our families will be better for it....a genuine melting pot. Our latest Citizenship Guide at least starts to put SOME expectations and responsibilities on New Canadians to balance off the array of rights that they receive.

[Argus]

The difference between Canada's Multiculturalism and the Melting Pot is a subtle but important one. It's the message that we send - it's the longer term expectations for new Canadians. Our message (or lack of it) until recently has been "come to Canada and you can retain all your traditions and way of life". Our message (again, or lack of it) has put no emphasis on the counter-point - we want to accept you and learn from your culture - but we expect you and most importantly, your children, to learn to embrace our history and culture and over time - both our families will be better for it....a genuine melting pot.

Given almost all our immigrants come from failed cultures I fail to see what we can learn from them - other than how to abandon our failed cultures for a better life elsewhere.

[Oleg Bach]

It is a sad mistake...liberal extremists like Trudeau, loved to play ant farm with the population and experiment..I can't stand the term multi-culturalism...I hate it almost as much as that other term "environment" - which does nothing to protect nature and sustain healthy human existance.

There is NO Canadian culture - or class system that real culture needs..we have no class.

[Keepitsimple]

Given almost all our immigrants come from failed cultures I fail to see what we can learn from them - other than how to abandon our failed cultures for a better life elsewhere.

Their cultures fail for various resons - mostly to do with an autocracy that allows a small unchallenged element to oppress the majority. I believe in the basic goodness of humanity and that regardless of the culture they were raised in, there are millions of people who want the basic privilege of raising a family in peace with a hope for the future. How we separate that small percentage of immigrants with oppressive tendencies in this day of political correctness is the challenge we face. "If you don't like it, don't come here" and "if you can't embrace our freedoms and ALL our rights, don't come here" are almost viewed as racist comments. As Jason Kenney is TRYING to do, slowly but surely - make people realize their responsibilities and in a perfect world - swear to do so.....that's the first step. Make it clear before people apply. Make Canadian citizenship worth something again and yes, make it easier to throw the bad apples out.

[DogOnPorch]

Multiculturalism is a unicultural phenomenon. If the purpose of your culture is to celebrate multiple cultures, you're in effect saying that your bedrock belief is that you believe in everything...which is the same thing as saying you believe in nothing. Your core value is that you have no core values.

[Shwa]

Given almost all our immigrants come from failed cultures I fail to see what we can learn from them - other than how to abandon our failed cultures for a better life elsewhere.

Chinese is a "failed" culture? Oh my...

[DogOnPorch]

Chinese is a "failed" culture? Oh my...

Can I interest you in a tour of a Chinese coal mine?

[GostHacked]

So joining the EU is not a part of a greater multiculturalism? Seems ironic to me.

[Shwa]

The difference between Canada's Multiculturalism and the Melting Pot is a subtle but important one. It's the message that we send - it's the longer term expectations for new Canadians. Our message (or lack of it) until recently has been "come to Canada and you can retain all your traditions and way of life". Our message (again, or lack of it) has put no emphasis on the counter-point - we want to accept you and learn from your culture - but we expect you and most importantly, your children, to learn to embrace our history and culture and over time - both our families will be better for it....a genuine melting pot. Our latest Citizenship Guide at least starts to put SOME expectations and responsibilities on New Canadians to balance off the array of rights that they receive.

I like this, although I doubt the emphasis on government's responsibilities is the final say. Here is the true melting pot:

While dropping my kid off at school at lunch, I saw this young South Asian lad attired in what looked to be traditional clothing. It looked nice, all lose and light. Ideal for a tropical climate. But it won't wear well in the winter that's for sure.

We are northern people and sooner or later one must adapt or plan to spend the rest of their life indoors. Our climate - ironically the freezing months - do more for the 'melting pot' than any government narrative is going to. On top of that - where does one go to buy suitable clothing? Well, welcome to The Bay, Sears, Walmart, Zellers... It might be a pretty Sari under that parka, but make no mistake - it is a nice warm parka that overrules it all. And usually mitts or gloves, toques, warm socks... all this stuff has been designed for the climate.

OK, maybe I am emphasising climate too much as a determinant factor of assimilation and acculturation, but it can't be ignored. And as a northern people winter looms large here, we play in it, write about it, walk about in it, bitch about it and generally make do. And we certainly dress for it.

[M.Dancer]

Can I interest you in a tour of a Chinese coal mine?

How about a deep bed Gulf oil platform?

[jbg]

Comparing Europe to America/Canada is fraught with problems for me.

Having lived in both places, I can attest to the fact that North America's systems create a natural melting pot, no matter how much government preaches multiculturalism and supports peoples retaining their culture.

European culture is more static. Your schooling, your background, and unions all provide for an inflexible social framework that lends itself to groups becoming isolated.

As to the U.S. v. Europe that's a great point. I'll defer to you re: Canada since I know little about your land.

[jbg]

Chinese is a "failed" culture? Oh my...

Oh yes. They depend upon "thought police" to keep the lid on (link). Excerpt below:

Chinas thought police are so omnipresent Chinese dissidents refer to them as the dark empire or the invisible black hand.

Operating from an unmarked office complex at 5 West Changan Ave. in Beijing, not far from Tiananmen Square and the senior party leaders residence compound known as Zhongnanhai, Chinas Central Propaganda Department runs one of the most intrusive and all-pervasive social monitoring systems in the world.

The department controls all state-run culture, education, sport, science and technology, health and media sectors in China. It supervises the work of all mass organizations, ranging from trade unions to artists co-ops, and it runs branch offices at all levels of the Chinese bureaucracy. Yet the department has no real legal basis in Chinas constitution and is accountable to no one but Chinas collective leadership, who have authorized the propaganda department to oversee the implementation of current ideology in China.

Read more:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/10/16/peter-goodspeed-invisible-black-hand-controls-all-said-done/#ixzz12jPAPNgg

Can I interest you in a tour of a Chinese coal mine?

How about a deep bed Gulf oil platform?

M. Dancer's sardonic comment aside, the U.S. oil spill and the situation in Chile were news because they are rare. Not so with Chinese mine and industrial disasters. It's like "dog bites man", not news; "man bites dog", news. Edited October 18, 2010 by jbg

[nicky10013]

Comparing Europe to America/Canada is fraught with problems for me.

Having lived in both places, I can attest to the fact that North America's systems create a natural melting pot, no matter how much government preaches multiculturalism and supports peoples retaining their culture.

European culture is more static. Your schooling, your background, and unions all provide for an inflexible social framework that lends itself to groups becoming isolated.

I think these are all fantastic points. I think we also need to add that in addition to the reasons for an inflexible social framework is a much higher level of homogeneity. Of course North America is going to be disposed to more cultures because the US and Canada have been 99% built as nations of immigrants.

As for the notion of a "failed" culture and how they're immigrating to here and places like Germany, I find it to be hilarious and hypocritical.

Edited October 18, 2010 by nicky10013

[Shwa]

Oh yes. They depend upon thought police" to keep the lid on. Excerpt below:

Meh, I wonder what the Chinese government thinks of US dissidents, you know, the ones that beefed about the NSA surveillance program?

M. Dancer's sardonic comment aside, the U.S. oil spill and the situation in Chile were news because they are rare. Not so with Chinese mine and industrial disasters. It's like "dog bites man", not news; "man bites dog", news.

According to this report, having a few spills per year is "rare" or just selective reading? According to this report the US has had it's fair share of mining disasters. According to this list, the US has also had it's fair share of industrial disasters which doesn't include the Love Canal or the Hinkley or one of the many thousands of smaller little ol' problems over the years.

With a population of over a billion people, a leading economic power, in a civilzation that is thousands of years old, I would hardly call them "failed."

Edited October 18, 2010 by Shwa

[DogOnPorch]

Five to six thousand Chinese coal miners die per year...that's incredible.

Edited October 18, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[Argus]

Chinese is a "failed" culture? Oh my...

Yes.

[jbg]

Can we bring this back to either Germany, Canada or both?

[nicky10013]

Can we bring this back to either Germany, Canada or both?

Sure. I live in the most ethnically diverse city on the planet (the only city with a foreign born population higher than Toronto is Miami and most of those people are Cuban and Haitain) and I think it works incredibly well. I don't think being proud of where you are and where you came from are mutually exclusive.

When we talk of German immigration policies, we should also remember that they don't have the same policies as we do. Before they immigrate, people must be proficient in German to a certain standard and must take German integration courses. They also have a guest worker program. So, people either have the choice of giving up their heritage or coming for only a short period of time to make money while making no connection to their new community. It's an immigration policy, but to call it muti-cultural in the first place is, in my opinion, wrong.