Merkel says multi-culturalism has absolutely failed in Germany

[ToadBrother]

Yes, people love dictators.

Yes, he was an authoritarian, like pretty much every ruler of Chinese since China came to be. But there can be no denying his substantial real accomplishments. What did Mao do other than booting out the Nationalists, being ultimately responsible for killing tens of millions of people with his ludicrous economic policies, and then, returning to spark the Cultural Revolution which saw a barely recovering China thrown back down into a ridiculous ideological war. Deng used his considerable power to at least try to meaningfully improve the lives of the people he had power over in a measurable fashion. I don't agree with his methods, though they weren't really his methods, but rather the methods he inherited, but I have to give the man his due. The marvel of the Chinese economic engine is largely of his creation.

[ToadBrother]

Sure, he was a great leader, and accomplished much for the betterment of China. Many kings and emperors were great leaders as well and accomplished many things to benefit their nations or empires. However, it doesn't mean that we should approve of an autocratic form of government, just because some dictators or monarchs do accomplish good things.

I don't necessarily approve. But I'll give him credit like I'll give Elizabeth I credit and Charlemagne credit and Octavius credit and so on and so forth. The problem with dictatorships, recognized since at least Plato, is that when you get a good one, things can go very well for a society, but when you get a bad one, there's no easy way to correct it.

Don't mistake my admiration of Deng's accomplishments for any kind of tacit approval of the way China was run in the 1970s, or how it's run now. But if we go on an absolute scale of improvement of the human condition, the years of Deng's rule over the PRC must stand in the history books as the greatest leap forward in the history of our species, even beating out such extraordinary leaps in economic and industrial power as seen in Meiji Japan or the united Germany under Bismarck.

Edited October 21, 2010 by ToadBrother

[Saipan]

brought up more peoples standard of living in a shorter period of time than probably anyone else in all of recorded history.

Thanks to Western business, not him.

Electrification in rural China and sometimes in urban increased 100%, by going from one light bulb to two.

[Bonam]

But if we go on an absolute scale of improvement of the human condition, the years of Deng's rule over the PRC must stand in the history books as the greatest leap forward in the history of our species, even beating out such extraordinary leaps in economic and industrial power as seen in Meiji Japan or the united Germany under Bismarck.

Dunno if I agree with that. In terms of progress I'd classify the industrialization and computerization eras in America and Western Europe ahead of your examples. They also get extra credit since they were actually developing the new paradigms and technologies that improved society, not merely copying them from other successful societies long after the fact.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Bonam

[ToadBrother]

Dunno if I agree with that. In terms of progress I'd classify the industrialization and computerization eras in America and Western Europe ahead of your examples.

I didn't complete my thought, I meant within the time scale. There wasn't really any innovation of process, but rather that in the space of twenty years China went from being nearly at civil war during the Cultural Revolution to being a major exporting powerhouse, with economic growth figures that would make your eyeballs pop out, not to mention the material improvements to many Chinese peoples' lives. Deng's pragmatic approach, deliberately avoiding steering China towards ideological craziness like Mao had done twice (the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution), brought up more peoples standard of living in a shorter period of time than probably anyone else in all of recorded history.

[Shwa]

The majority of China's population still lives in agricultural/non-urban environments, and while the gap is closing, there is still a huge separation between income and standard of living levels of urban and country dwellers. China seems to be recognizing this, as its new five year plan suggests greater effort to be put into helping the vast agrarian population, in no small part to stem growing unrest in agrarian areas, which have thus far not enjoyed the great economic leaps forward that urban China has seen.

Sure, this stuff is fairly well known. What I take issue with is Argus' view that "life in China is not pleasant for most." I don't equate 'not pleasant' with agrarian/non-urban do you? But, more importantly, do they? And what measures would they use - Western lifestyle, culture and technology? I mean, is that the inevitable base standard of happiness for the world?

It's possible there are measures, polls, studies and I say bring them on, let's have a look.

However it is equally possible that we sometimes tend to view other cultures through a single lense based upon our own 'standards' and deriving conclusions that actually exclude a good portion of their reality as well as some of our own. How could their life be pleasant, they don't have big screen TV's let alone a second light bulb?

I guess what I am saying is that it might be a serious mistake to underestimate the Chinese ablity to find pleasantness in what we see as 'less.'

Edited October 21, 2010 by Shwa

[bush_cheney2004]

....I guess what I am saying is that it might be a serious mistake to underestimate the Chinese ablity to find pleasantness in what we see as 'less.'

Then why do they manufacture so many "big screen TVs" ?

[Shwa]

Then why do they manufacture so many "big screen TVs" ?

Very good question of course, which I would follow with '...and is it unpleasant for them to do so?"

[GostHacked]

For a dirty city with horrific traffic problems perpetually on the edge of bankruptcy, you mean?

I've been to Calgary once ... and the one thing I noticed is that there is very little garbage in the streets. They were very clean. They have one good rail line from downtown to the burbs ... for the little time I was there, driving was no more difficult that say Ottawa or Toronto.

And how many cities are on the edge of bankruptcy?? Probably more than we want to know about.

[GostHacked]

Then why do they manufacture so many "big screen TVs" ?

Because no one else can do it on the cheap like they can. If they were made in NA, they'd be 3x the price. Yay for outsourcing. And with the McJob on the rise, people can only afford these items when they come from China, because all the good jobs are moved overseas so the items can be cheaper. However you can knock 2/3rds off the price of those items, and the manufacturers and retailers would still be making money on them.

That's going to have an impact on the economy on the whole.

[Michael Hardner]

I guess what I am saying is that it might be a serious mistake to underestimate the Chinese ablity to find pleasantness in what we see as 'less.'

Shwa, of course you're right... but there are some inescapable conclusions that one could get from observing the behavior of the people.

For example, policies that prohibit people from leaving are likely not a good sign that they are happy. Statistics that show people will leave immediately if given the chance as well. My understanding that these restrictions are in place for China's subsistence farmers - which is understandable since they're generally known to work the entire waking day to stay in absolute poverty.

[bush_cheney2004]

Because no one else can do it on the cheap like they can. If they were made in NA, they'd be 3x the price. Yay for outsourcing. And with the McJob on the rise, people can only afford these items when they come from China,....

You mean like the American jobs that went to Canada back in the 80's and 90's? Yay for outsourcing!

Edited October 21, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Saipan]

Then why do they manufacture so many "big screen TVs" ?

So we can watch the China's leap forward.

http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.friendsoftibet.org/main/images/tibet_execution_1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.friendsoftibet.org/main/execution.html&usg=__HozkeFnPaavXc8-5uHo2v8gbQCg=&h=284&w=427&sz=14&hl=en&start=1&sig2=M7uiEqPCmcHfl9XIM1G_wQ&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=QXcqxL5IWB2M5M:&tbnh=84&tbnw=126&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtibet%2Bexecutions%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=ZjzATIjvEYOrnAeDrPCOCg

[GostHacked]

You mean like the American jobs that went to Canada back in the 80's and 90's? Yay for outsourcing!

It does not matter where they are outsourced to, those jobs will never return.

[bush_cheney2004]

It does not matter where they are outsourced to, those jobs will never return.

Nor should they...Economics 101 (high school).

[ToadBrother]

Sure, this stuff is fairly well known. What I take issue with is Argus' view that "life in China is not pleasant for most." I don't equate 'not pleasant' with agrarian/non-urban do you? But, more importantly, do they? And what measures would they use - Western lifestyle, culture and technology? I mean, is that the inevitable base standard of happiness for the world?

It's possible there are measures, polls, studies and I say bring them on, let's have a look.

However it is equally possible that we sometimes tend to view other cultures through a single lense based upon our own 'standards' and deriving conclusions that actually exclude a good portion of their reality as well as some of our own. How could their life be pleasant, they don't have big screen TV's let alone a second light bulb?

I guess what I am saying is that it might be a serious mistake to underestimate the Chinese ablity to find pleasantness in what we see as 'less.'

Judging by the growing unrest in the countryside and the ever increasing migration to the cities (creating a virtually homeless underclass), I'd say it's not a large leap to say that, cultural standards aside, Chinese farmers and other members of the agrarian class are sick and tired of getting the short end of the stick, which they've been getting for decades, from the Great Leap Forward onward.

[Sir Bandelot]

Nor should they...Economics 101 (high school).

Why, because economics trumps virtue? Explain that one to the disenfranchised.

[GostHacked]

Nor should they...Economics 101 (high school).

It only hurts yourself and your country in the long run. The more you outsource the more dependent you become on it to sustain any kind of level or comfort. There is a reason most can only afford products that places like Walmart sell.

I know deep down all of this does bother you, and you do know what is right and what is wrong. Your posts do lead on to that.

[bush_cheney2004]

It only hurts yourself and your country in the long run. The more you outsource the more dependent you become on it to sustain any kind of level or comfort. There is a reason most can only afford products that places like Walmart sell.

My family and I have never been more "comfortable". I do not have to shop at WalMart. Americans still enjoy a very high standard of living, more productivity than Canadians, and wider access to goods and services.

I know deep down all of this does bother you, and you do know what is right and what is wrong. Your posts do lead on to that.

News for you....I directly supported the technology transfer of roll-to-roll laminating technology and ANSI standards testing to China in the late 90's. The only thing that bothered me was the polluted air of Shanghai.

[GostHacked]

My family and I have never been more "comfortable". I do not have to shop at WalMart. Americans still enjoy a very high standard of living, more productivity than Canadians, and wider access to goods and services.

Not sure if the standard of living in the US is better than Canada or not, but in terms of productivity, yes the US does more. Also they have 10x the population..... durrrrr.

News for you....I directly supported the technology transfer of roll-to-roll laminating technology and ANSI standards testing to China in the late 90's. The only thing that bothered me was the polluted air of Shanghai.

Ahh so you are part of the problem then.

[Sir Bandelot]

My family and I have never been more "comfortable". I do not have to shop at WalMart. Americans still enjoy a very high standard of living, more productivity than Canadians, and wider access to goods and services.

Except the ones who've recently lost their homes and life savings, and pensions, and are nowing living in a van or under a bridge...

News for you....I directly supported the technology transfer of roll-to-roll laminating technology and ANSI standards testing to China in the late 90's. The only thing that bothered me was the polluted air of Shanghai.

Yes, Darth Vader committed many evils. But Luke sensed that he still had a seed of humanity left in him. And that one day, that seed must grow

[bush_cheney2004]

Not sure if the standard of living in the US is better than Canada or not, but in terms of productivity, yes the US does more. Also they have 10x the population..... durrrrr.

No...you do not understand...Canada has routinely been less productive on a per-capita basis.

Ahh so you are part of the problem then.

I sure hope so...that was my job. All that NAFTA paperwork for Canada still sucks!

Last week, I stopped to talk to an operator who was stuffing envelopes manualy...very inefficient. She said they had to do this because customers in Quebec did not like to receive product from an American address. So they just drop ship the parcels to the Winnepeg plant, and it is shipped from Manitoba instead. I laughed my ass off for the rest of the day.

Edited October 21, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

Except the ones who've recently lost their homes and life savings, and pensions, and are nowing living in a van or under a bridge....

Easy come...easy go. They can move to Canada and let bleeding hearts like you pay for beer and cigarettes.

Yes, Darth Vader committed many evils. But Luke sensed that he still had a seed of humanity left in him. And that one day, that seed must grow

...then I will sell that too.

[GostHacked]

No...you do not understand...Canada has routinely been less productive on a per-capita basis.

I understand a lot. And I know you do to.

I sure hope so...that was my job. All that NAFTA paperwork for Canada still sucks!

No worries, the NAU will make us all the same. How long before that comes into play?

[Sir Bandelot]

Easy come...easy go. They can move to Canada and let bleeding hearts like you pay for beer and cigarettes.

Well there's bleeding hearts and there's bleeding hearts. but paying for beer and pretzels? Ahem! I think not...

...then I will sell that too.

Ok. Don't forget to wear your dark helmet