Ayaan Hirsi Ali , Atheist, Feminist Activist

[betsy]

I would suspect most Arab Christians in the Middle East, like the Copts and the Palestinian Christians, are in fact the descendants of the Christians who occupied the region since before the Muslim invasions. The same for the Syrian Christians and other such groups. They're not the products of any kind of evangelistic effort, but survivors from pre-Muslim times.

There are missionaries in some dangerous places. Charles Price didn't name the countries (for obvious reasons).....but he talked about smuggling Bibles into those places!

[DogOnPorch]

They acquired Jerusalem by toppling the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem, which was about as native a state as the Turkish state that followed. I mean, the Kingdom's rulers has names like Baldwin and Amalric, not exactly what one would call good Palestinian names. On top of that, they even imposed some level of Catholic dominance over the Orthodox church hierarchy in the region.

Perhaps the history of the region is a tad bit more complex than you stated.

Incorrect. Jerusalem fell to the Muslims in 637 AD. Omar was the one that made the claim that Jerusalem was infact the 'furthest mosque' mentioned in the Koran.

[betsy]

Isabella was a woman.

She can be a lesbo for all I care! Or a transvestite!

Oh boy, details really get in the way of a nice little discussion. Details that actually mean nothing!

[ToadBrother]

There are missionaries in some dangerous places. Charles Price didn't name the countries (for obvious reasons).....but he talked about smuggling Bibles into those places!

I don't exactly see a flood of Evangelical Christians in the Middle East. If there were, I would suspect the largest outcry wouldn't come from Muslims, but rather from the Copts, Palestinian and Lebanese Christians, the Syriac Church, the Nestorians and so forth. A lot of these churches, like the Coptic Church, in fact have a special status in their home countries, and the Coptic Church is probably the oldest single extant tradition of Christianity on the planet.

[ToadBrother]

She can be a lesbo for all I care! Or a transvestite!

Oh boy, details really get in the way of a nice little discussion. Details that actually mean nothing!

You blamed men in general, and I pointed out a woman, and not just any woman, but probably one of the most powerful women of the period who quite gleefully contributed to the exile and tens of thousands of Moors and Jews, and no few tortures, recantations and murders as well, even of Moors and Jews who had publicly espoused Christianity.

The problem here is that you don't like being a co-religionist with some nasty people, so you invent rationalizations to get around it.

[DogOnPorch]

I don't exactly see a flood of Evangelical Christians in the Middle East. If there were, I would suspect the largest outcry wouldn't come from Muslims, but rather from the Copts, Palestinian and Lebanese Christians, the Syriac Church, the Nestorians and so forth. A lot of these churches, like the Coptic Church, in fact have a special status in their home countries, and the Coptic Church is probably the oldest single extant tradition of Christianity on the planet.

Yeah...it's refered to as dhimmi.

[betsy]

Which has precious little to do with what I said. As a non-Christian, I'm not bound by your particular rationalizations or apologetics.

Which is why I made sure to stress this!

In my view - and I must stress that this is my pov - Satan was, and still is prolific and resourceful in getting mankind to turn away from God!

[ToadBrother]

Yeah...it's refered to as dhimmi.

It's more complex than that. The Egyptian government exercises a great deal of control over the Coptic Church.

[betsy]

You blamed men in general, and I pointed out a woman, and not just any woman, but probably one of the most powerful women

And I used the word "Men"- that encompass both men AND WOMEN!

The problem here is that you don't like being a co-religionist with some nasty people, so you invent rationalizations to get around it.

Eh? You lost me there. Co-religionist?

Care to explain?

Edited September 13, 2010 by betsy

[DogOnPorch]

It's more complex than that. The Egyptian government exercises a great deal of control over the Coptic Church.

The Coptics are treated like the garbage that they sort.

[ToadBrother]

Eh? You lost me there. Co-religionist?

Care to explain?

Follower of the same faith as you.

[Shady]

So no matter how one views the Crusades, given your two examples, your answer is 'a loooong time ago;' and therefore it has no bearing on today's world.

Exactly. Essentially what he's trying to say is that Muslims are mad and violent today, because of the Crusades. Which is laughable.

[ToadBrother]

Exactly. Essentially what he's trying to say is that Muslims are mad and violent today, because of the Crusades. Which is laughable.

Anyone who thinks the Crusades don't to this very day color the way the West and the Middle East interact is blind, and if in power, dangerously blind. That the West has happily put itself into a kind of weird amnesia over those events after the fall of the Ottoman Empire does not mean that the peoples of the region have. Heck, even when it comes to Christianity, the Fourth Crusade still reverberates, sustaining and informing long-standing conflicts between two of the ancient strains of Christianity.

I'm sure lots of folks of European descent feel the same way about the indigenous peoples of the Americas (after all, their troubles with the West began only a few centuries after the Crusades). Just because we as a civilization choose to minimize the extent of the influence of distant events does not mean that those who came into conflict with us do.

Edited September 13, 2010 by ToadBrother

[Shady]

I would suspect most Arab Christians in the Middle East, like the Copts and the Palestinian Christians, are in fact the descendants of the Christians who occupied the region since before the Muslim invasions.

Christianity has its orgin in the Middle East and pre-dates Islam.

[ToadBrother]

Christianity has its orgin in the Middle East and pre-dates Islam.

I'm beginning to think you're an illiterate.

[betsy]

Unbelieveable!

Fancy how the reaction is so typical with the same mindset of people: here is a topic that features an atheist feminist-activist who talks about the PRESENT-DAY problem that the WORLD is facing....this woman is offering some solutions that could not only alleviate the violent situation we're all facing, BUT ALSO to offer some help to her fellow-Muslims. Considering her position as an atheist and a feminist, at least she is trying to look at the situation in an objective way!

And what is the response of some of the people here? Typical knee-jerk response to anything Christian! And the lion roared....

"THINK OF THE CRUSADES"!

Heck, the Crusades is the root cause why we got jihadists! <slap my forehead> I should've known that!

Hirsi Ali should point that finger at the Crusades why she got her genital mutilated and got a fatwa over her head!

Hirsi Ali is a fat liar blaming the poor Imams for the radicalization of the Muslim youth....and oppression of Muslim women by Muslim men is just a figment of her imagination. Silly girl.

Edited September 13, 2010 by betsy

[betsy]

I don't exactly see a flood of Evangelical Christians in the Middle East. If there were, I would suspect the largest outcry wouldn't come from Muslims, but rather from the Copts, Palestinian and Lebanese Christians, the Syriac Church, the Nestorians and so forth. A lot of these churches, like the Coptic Church, in fact have a special status in their home countries, and the Coptic Church is probably the oldest single extant tradition of Christianity on the planet.

Of course you wouldn't see a flood of them Evangelical Christians....I'd imagine they wouldn't advertise their presence....and they wouldn't be wearing the usual garb! I bet most of them are non-whites! But the fact remains that there are attempts being made.

Anyway, what Hirsi Ali was saying is to proselytyze in Muslim communities right here in the west! It only makes sense! Let's face it....Islam is not compatible with western values, and that's putting it mildly!

[wyly]

Of course you wouldn't see a flood of them Evangelical Christians....I'd imagine they wouldn't advertise their presence....and they wouldn't be wearing the usual garb! I bet most of them are non-whites! But the fact remains that there are attempts being made.

Anyway, what Hirsi Ali was saying is to proselytyze in Muslim communities right here in the west! It only makes sense! Let's face it....Islam is not compatible with western values, and that's putting it mildly!

christian evangelism isn't compatible with my western values...viewpoint depends on where you stand...

[Jack Weber]

I don't exactly see a flood of Evangelical Christians in the Middle East. If there were, I would suspect the largest outcry wouldn't come from Muslims, but rather from the Copts, Palestinian and Lebanese Christians, the Syriac Church, the Nestorians and so forth. A lot of these churches, like the Coptic Church, in fact have a special status in their home countries, and the Coptic Church is probably the oldest single extant tradition of Christianity on the planet.

Erm...If I m iss my guess,were'nt Coptic Christians the object of murdurous Islamofascist rage last year in Egypt???

[betsy]

christian evangelism isn't compatible with my western values...viewpoint depends on where you stand...

By the sound of it, you are taking the side of Islam on this particular topic....that you don't agree with Hirsi Ali's assertion regarding Islam, the reason why she's endorsing conversion to Christianity as a possible answer.

I take it then that the following are more compatible with your own values...you approve of the following:

1. forced genital mutilation for Muslim women (including those who are Canadian citizens).

2. Stoning Muslim adulterers, especially women!

3. Murder, including heinous mass murders and massacres

4. Rape and degradation of women

You find nothing wrong with these? That's why you put your irrational hatred for all things Christian ahead of a most pressing issue we now face as a nation?

Anyway, what's this "Christian evangelism" you're bringing up in this topic? You're throwing dessert sand to murky up the discussion....another "Crusade" defense?

I'm talking about WESTERN VALUES!

If your values are not compatible with Christian values....What are your values then? Please explain. You cannot just throw an opinion such as that (in a mature discussion), without following it up with an explanation.

What are your views on rape, murder, death penalties, equality among men AND WOMEN, freedom of expression, freedom of religion... etc?

Edited September 14, 2010 by betsy

[ToadBrother]

By the sound of it, you are taking the side of Islam on this particular topic....that you don't agree with Hirsi Ali's assertion regarding Islam, the reason why she's endorsing conversion to Christianity as a possible answer.

First of all, the notion is idiotic. It isn't going to happen. In demographic terms, it's a non-starter. Second of all, I'm not on the side of any religion. I am on the side of people having the right to believe what they want without having do-gooders running around trying to teach them the "proper" way.

And thirdly, as evidenced by your post, I despise bigots.

I take it then that the following are more compatible with your own values...you approve of the following:

1. forced genital mutilation for Muslim women (including those who are Canadian citizens).

Genital mutilation is not found in all Islamic nations, and isn't limited to Islam where it is found.

2. Stoning Muslim adulterers, especially women!

Stoning isn't found in all Islamic nations.

3. Murder, including heinous mass murders and massacres

Which most Muslims in pretty much every region of the world have had no part in.

4. Rape and degradation of women

Hardly limited to the Muslim world.

You find nothing wrong with these? That's why you put your irrational hatred for all things Christian ahead of a most pressing issue we now face as a nation?

Anyway, what's this "Christian evangelism" you're bringing up in this topic? You're throwing dessert sand to murky up the discussion....another "Crusade" defense?

For all your flaunting your religion, you're an extremely dishonest person. I kind of pity you, so filled with ignorance and hate. At any rate, I find Christian evangelism as ludicrous as Islamic evangelism. The point of bringing up the Crusades is to demonstrate that it was attempted to bring Christianity back to the Islamic world, to free the Holy Land of the Muslims. In the end, the Turks sent all those Christian princes packing, though the Christian churches survived, ironically enough.

I'm talking about WESTERN VALUES!

Like freedom of religion?

If your values are not compatible with Christian values....What are your values then? Please explain. You cannot just throw an opinion such as that (in a mature discussion), without following it up with an explanation.

My values start with not tarring a billion people with the brush of a few groups. You know, morality and all that, which starts with honesty. You might want to try it some day.

What are your views on rape, murder, death penalties, equality among men AND WOMEN, freedom of expression, freedom of religion... etc?

My view is that I wouldn't look to you for an honest rational opinion on anything.

[wyly]

By the sound of it, you are taking the side of Islam on this particular topic....that you don't agree with Hirsi Ali's assertion regarding Islam, the reason why she's endorsing conversion to Christianity as a possible answer.

I take it then that the following are more compatible with your own values...you approve of the following:

1. forced genital mutilation for Muslim women (including those who are Canadian citizens).

2. Stoning Muslim adulterers, especially women!

3. Murder, including heinous mass murders and massacres

4. Rape and degradation of women

1-forced genital mutilation? not common in the muslim world only in isolated areas ....and are we forgetting about male circumcision so common here...

2-stoning adulterers? male adulters are also stoned ...and it's unique only to a few areas something like texas and it's passion for electrocuting people...

3-murders, mass murders...hmm I thought the christian west had that perfected long ago...

4-rape, degradation....lol ya that never happens in christian countries...

You find nothing wrong with these? That's why you put your irrational hatred for all things Christian ahead of a most pressing issue we now face as a nation?

Anyway, what's this "Christian evangelism" you're bringing up in this topic? You're throwing dessert sand to murky up the discussion....another "Crusade" defense?

no Betty I'm just trying to knock you off your high horse...christianity does not have a better record for good behaviour than any other religion, other than buddhists(and it's not really a religion) they all pretty much suck when it comes to violence and intolerance

I'm talking about WESTERN VALUES!

your confusing human values with religious values

If your values are not compatible with Christian values....What are your values then? Please explain. You cannot just throw an opinion such as that (in a mature discussion), without following it up with an explanation.

What are your views on rape, murder, death penalties, equality among men AND WOMEN, freedom of expression, freedom of religion... etc?

my values are higher than christian values Betty, perhaps you belong to the same christian evangelical church as the PM the one that does not approve of gender equality or gay rights......I'm a secular humanist... Edited September 14, 2010 by wyly

[Shady]

your confusing human values with religious values

What's a human value?

[betsy]

First of all, the notion is idiotic. It isn't going to happen. In demographic terms, it's a non-starter. Second of all, I'm not on the side of any religion. I am on the side of people having the right to believe what they want without having do-gooders running around trying to teach them the "proper" way.

And thirdly, as evidenced by your post, I despise bigots.

Genital mutilation is not found in all Islamic nations, and isn't limited to Islam where it is found.

Stoning isn't found in all Islamic nations.

Which most Muslims in pretty much every region of the world have had no part in.

Hardly limited to the Muslim world.

For all your flaunting your religion, you're an extremely dishonest person. I kind of pity you, so filled with ignorance and hate. At any rate, I find Christian evangelism as ludicrous as Islamic evangelism. The point of bringing up the Crusades is to demonstrate that it was attempted to bring Christianity back to the Islamic world, to free the Holy Land of the Muslims. In the end, the Turks sent all those Christian princes packing, though the Christian churches survived, ironically enough.

Like freedom of religion?

My values start with not tarring a billion people with the brush of a few groups. You know, morality and all that, which starts with honesty. You might want to try it some day.

You are ranting.

My view is that I wouldn't look to you for an honest rational opinion on anything.

I guess this means bye-bye.

Edited September 14, 2010 by betsy

[Shady]

My view is that I wouldn't look to you for an honest rational opinion on anything.

Not much of a substantive argument. Betsy, it sounds like he's taking his ball and going home.

You win!