Ayaan Hirsi Ali , Atheist, Feminist Activist

[GostHacked]

You are ranting.

Pot. Kettle. And some colour.

I guess this means bye-bye.

Are you leaving MLW? Again?

Not much of a substantive argument. Betsy, it sounds like he's taking his ball and going home.

You win!

Your concept of a win disturbs me.

[betsy]

deleted. double posting.

Edited September 15, 2010 by betsy

[betsy]

1-forced genital mutilation? not common in the muslim world only in isolated areas ....and are we forgetting about male circumcision so common here...

Amnesty International estimates that over 130 million women worldwide have been affected by some form of FGM, with over 3 million girls at risk of undergoing FGM every year. FGM is mainly practised in 28 different African countries.[9] It is common in a band that stretches from Senegal in West Africa to Ethiopia on the East coast, as well as from Egypt in the north to Tanzania in the south; see Map. It is also practised by some groups in the Arabian peninsula. The country where FGM is most prevalent is Egypt, followed by Sudan, Ethiopia, and Mali. Egypt recently passed a law banning FGM.[38]

Map: Estimated Prevalence of Female Genital Cutting (FGC) in Africa. Data based on uncertain estimates.Whilst FGM is widely practised out in the open by Africans of varied faiths, it is practised in secrecy in some parts of the Middle East. In the Arabian peninsula, Types I and II FGM are usually performed, often referred to as Sunna circumcision especially among Afro-Arabs (ethnic groups of African descent are more likely to prefer infibulation). The practice occurs particularly in northern Saudi Arabia, southern Jordan, and northern Iraq (Kurdistan).[39][40] In the Iraqi village of Hasira, a recent study found that 60 percent of the women and girls reported having undergone FGM.[39] Before the study, there had been no solid proof of the prevalence of the practice. There is also circumstantial evidence to suggest that FGM is practised in Syria and Kurdistan.[40][41] In Oman, a few communities still practice FGM; however, experts believe that the number of such cases is small and declining annually. In the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia, it is practiced mainly among foreign workers from East Africa and the Nile Valley. On the other hand, a 2009 study suggested that FGM had virtually disappeared among the Negev Bedouin due to modernisation process under Israeli rule.[42]

The practice can also be found among a few ethnic groups in South America.[9] In Indonesia, the practice is common in several districts; almost all are Type I or Type IV, the latter usually involving the pricking of blood release. Sometimes the procedures are merely symbolic, and no actual cutting is done.[43]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision

2-stoning adulterers? male adulters are also stoned ...and it's unique only to a few areas....

I doubt that. You said that this practice is done only in "isolated areas." Look how many countries are involved! And take note that all, if not most of the countires mentioned practice Islam!

So now with stoning, you're saying "a few areas?"

3-murders, mass murders...hmm I thought the christian west had that perfected long ago...

4-rape, degradation....lol ya that never happens in christian countries.

no Betty I'm just trying to knock you off your high horse...christianity does not have a better record for good behaviour than any other religion, other than buddhists(and it's not really a religion) they all pretty much suck when it comes to violence and intolerance

If you wish to "knock me off my high horse," then do it in an appropriate thread. This is about the solutions being offered by Hirsi Ali....and it so happens that one of them is proselytyzing in Muslim communities to try to convert them to Christianity.

On the other hand, your convoluted response seems to be a perfect example of a confused liberal psyche that Hirsi Ali was talking about.

[betsy]

deleted. double posting.

Edited September 15, 2010 by betsy

[betsy]

Are you leaving MLW? Again?

With a statement like this:

My view is that I wouldn't look to you for an honest rational opinion on anything.

You mean you don't get it why it means bye-bye????

Edited September 15, 2010 by betsy

[betsy]

Not much of a substantive argument. Betsy, it sounds like he's taking his ball and going home.

You win!

Gosthacked didn't get that!

[GostHacked]

Gosthacked didn't get that!

Bye-bye.

1. Ignore user

2. Ditch thread and create another one

3. Leave the forums... for a while ... again ...

So, what don't I get exactly.

[wyly]

Amnesty International estimates that over 130 million women worldwide have been affected by some form of FGM, with over 3 million girls at risk of undergoing FGM every year. FGM is mainly practised in 28 different African countries.[9] It is common in a band that stretches from Senegal in West Africa to Ethiopia on the East coast, as well as from Egypt in the north to Tanzania in the south; see Map. It is also practised by some groups in the Arabian peninsula. The country where FGM is most prevalent is Egypt, followed by Sudan, Ethiopia, and Mali. Egypt recently passed a law banning FGM.[38]

Map: Estimated Prevalence of Female Genital Cutting (FGC) in Africa. Data based on uncertain estimates.Whilst FGM is widely practised out in the open by Africans of varied faiths, it is practised in secrecy in some parts of the Middle East. In the Arabian peninsula, Types I and II FGM are usually performed, often referred to as Sunna circumcision especially among Afro-Arabs (ethnic groups of African descent are more likely to prefer infibulation). The practice occurs particularly in northern Saudi Arabia, southern Jordan, and northern Iraq (Kurdistan).[39][40] In the Iraqi village of Hasira, a recent study found that 60 percent of the women and girls reported having undergone FGM.[39] Before the study, there had been no solid proof of the prevalence of the practice. There is also circumstantial evidence to suggest that FGM is practised in Syria and Kurdistan.[40][41] In Oman, a few communities still practice FGM; however, experts believe that the number of such cases is small and declining annually. In the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia, it is practiced mainly among foreign workers from East Africa and the Nile Valley. On the other hand, a 2009 study suggested that FGM had virtually disappeared among the Negev Bedouin due to modernisation process under Israeli rule.[42]

The practice can also be found among a few ethnic groups in South America.[9] In Indonesia, the practice is common in several districts; almost all are Type I or Type IV, the latter usually involving the pricking of blood release. Sometimes the procedures are merely symbolic, and no actual cutting is done.[43]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision

what, are you the cut n paste queen of the forum...obviously you can't think on your own otherwise your research would have revealed female circumsion is cultural and not religious, it's not an islamic tradition ...but i understand bigotry has a way of clouding one's vision...so do you want to defend male circumcision in Canada now or are you just going to pretend it doesn't happen...or maybe we should discuss how christian sects in canada practice polygamy with young teenage girls or how others christian sects treat women like 2nd class citizens...

I doubt that. You said that this practice is done only in "isolated areas." Look how many countries are involved! And take note that all, if not most of the countires mentioned practice Islam!

So now with stoning, you're saying "a few areas?"

5 countries out of 50 muslim countries and even in those 5 it's not that common, so a few areas Betty...but again you're blinded by hate...

If you wish to "knock me off my high horse," then do it in an appropriate thread. This is about the solutions being offered by Hirsi Ali....and it so happens that one of them is proselytyzing in Muslim communities to try to convert them to Christianity.

until Hiris Ali comes to this forum you're the spokesperson for christian intolerance and ignorance

On the other hand, your convoluted response seems to be a perfect example of a confused liberal psyche that Hirsi Ali was talking about.

you're easily confused Betty, I'll dumb down my response next time so you can better grasp it...

[betsy]

I feel compelled to address ToadBrother's rant, Wyly's rant and even Gosthacked's senseless insertions in this topic.....all these responses had dramatically veered away from the actual topic and are more as a personal attack. It usually means that they cannot defend their positions.

It's so transparent how these folks are so confused and in a quandary, just by their absurd reasonings:

*ALL CHRISTIANS (the whole religion) is blamed for the Crusades, the Inquisition, the priest molesters, etc., AND YET, they repeatedly argue that ISLAM is not to be blamed for fatwas, suicide bombings, genital mutilation, and other atrocities being practiced in countries practicing Islam.

And I am being tarred as a"bigot" even thopugh it is plain in my postings that I do not brush every Muslims with the samne brush.

**Wyly's assertion to equate mass muders and massacres by suicide bombers with Christians doing the same thing....I guess he must mean our soldiers fighting at war. How pathetic can we be.

**ToadBrothers remark about freedom of religion! The gall and sheer ignorance to compare Conversion by Christians as opposed to the chant, "Death to all Infidels!" I wonder what ToadBrother understood by the word infidel....only gay people? Only adulterers? Only Jews?

What's so wrong about Christians proselytyzing in a Muslim community in Canada? Aren't mosques being built in Christian communities? Aren't there any Christians like Casius Clay who convert to Islam?

To ToadBrother and Wyly, Freedom of Expression only apply to Islam and any other religion....EXCEPT CHRISTIANS. They bristled at my "evangelism"....in their minds, they see it as evangelism because perhaps any mention of the Christian doctrine is like a pin pricking somewhere inside? Something you don't want to be reminded of? Then that is your own issue with yourselves.

That is not my problem. That is yours. I think true Atheists wouldn't care a hoot about my bleeting about my God. I don't think they would display too much protest....secure in their confidence about their own belief. I will not censor myself just so you three would not feel the heat that you seem to feel everytime somebody mentions the word God or the word Satan!

[GostHacked]

Betsy, not sure what else to say. You obviously don't like to hear opinions that are not in line with your thoughts and beliefs. And when real logic and reasoning are injected into the thread, you claim that we have no reasoning.

Toadbrother, and wyly don't rant... often..., from what I read of them. And you have not answered some of my questions in other threads. I am sure it is a slight oversight on your part. I guess I can forgive that. Cause that's what Jesus would do right?

From your article.

Q: You believe there is no such thing as moderate Islam. If that’s true, why do so many Muslims in the West say they’re horrified by violence perpetrated in the name of Islam?

A: I haven’t heard anybody say they’re horrified. Just to compare, many Americans, Canadians and Europeans protested the war on Iraq; they gathered themselves, they sent lots of emails, there was a lot of activism, they marched against this war. I haven’t seen that kind of thing from Muslims saying, “We’re against the numerous terrorist attacks all over the world carried out in the name of Islam.” No marches, no organizations, nothing. There are individuals, like Irshad Manji, like me, born into Islam, who stand up and say, “Hey, we don’t like this.” But we haven’t seen any kind of institutionalized protest by Muslims. That is the big question mark: are Muslims silent because they agree with the terrorist attacks? Or because they don’t know how to express themselves?

Moderates are speaking out. Is it a matter of we are not listening or that we don't want to listen. And would you engage in dialogue with those who are moderates and want to speak out against extremism? Or are we going to continue to marginalize them to the point where it will be impossible for moderates to speak up?

American Woman pointed out about the Canadian Muslim Congress going against the idea of the Mosque in NYC. Those would be the moderates we need to be talking to. If we at least provide an avenue for a moderate to speak out and feel safe about speaking out about it, then we will see more of the moderates come out against it.

The media has ingrained into us the supposed evils of Islam as a whole since the WTC towers fell, when it really is a small group of extremists who are making it hard for the rest. It's always the case of a few idiots ruining it for the rest of us. A few idiots are ruining it for the Muslims. Do we help or do we sit back and keep pointing the finger? And if they wanted help, and asked for it, would you be willing to give them a hand at the same time not trying to convert them to another religion?

[ToadBrother]

**ToadBrothers remark about freedom of religion! The gall and sheer ignorance to compare Conversion by Christians as opposed to the chant, "Death to all Infidels!" I wonder what ToadBrother understood by the word infidel....only gay people? Only adulterers? Only Jews?

Again you seem to be asserting that all Muslims are taking part in these activities. They most certainly are not. Most Muslims are like most Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Janists, Neo-pagans etc. and so forth, just trying to get by in the world the best they can.

As long as the freedom is there for a Muslim to tell a Christian attempting to convert them to bugger off, and by extension a Muslim is permitted to try to convert a Christian, and as long as all you of you respect my right to tell you all to bugger off, then that's the way a society should work. But it means a degree of mutual respect, you know, like not basically calling a religion of over a billion people murderous, genital destroying rapists.

It's a free country. Christians and Muslims are allowed to debate, attempt conversion or anything they please.

To ToadBrother and Wyly, Freedom of Expression only apply to Islam and any other religion....EXCEPT CHRISTIANS. They bristled at my "evangelism"....in their minds, they see it as evangelism because perhaps any mention of the Christian doctrine is like a pin pricking somewhere inside? Something you don't want to be reminded of? Then that is your own issue with yourselves.

Some day you may actually try reading what I write. I pretty much think Muslims and Christians are utterly misguided. I do find evangelism to be an ugly sort of thing, responsible over the last six hundred years for being the vanguard of colonialism and forced destruction of cultures throughout the world. But in a free society, you are certainly within your right to try to convert people, and they to convert you.

The point of bringing up the Crusades was to show how the forced conversions in the Middle East, not just of Muslims to Christianity, but of the imposition of Roman Catholic structures on top of Orthodox Christian hierarchies ultimately failed, and worse than simply failing, cut out the underbelly of the Byzantine Christian state, ultimately rendering even less capable of defending itself against the Islamic Turkish conquerors.

[Shady]

Again you seem to be asserting that all Muslims are taking part in these activities.

Nobody seems to be asserting anything. You either do or don't. She certainly didn't assert that. Nobody has ever said that all Muslims are taking part in these activities. But it cannot be denied, unless of course you're a denier, that unfortunately, Islam has a significantly greater problem than other religions, at this point in time.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Shady

[ToadBrother]

Nobody seems to be asserting anything. You either do or don't. She certainly didn't assert that. Nobody has ever said that all Muslims are taking part in these activities. But it cannot be denied, unless of course you're a denier, that unfortunately, Islam has a significantly greater problem than other religions, at this point in time.

Of course she asserted, and you have as well on many occasions. She's an honest bigot, but a bigot never the less. You, on the other hand, are just an ideologue who would probably attack your own mother if you thought Glenn Beck would approve.

[Jack Weber]

Of course she asserted, and you have as well on many occasions. She's an honest bigot, but a bigot never the less. You, on the other hand, are just an ideologue who would probably attack your own mother if you thought Glenn Beck would approve.

double post...deleted...

Edited September 15, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Jack Weber]

Of course she asserted, and you have as well on many occasions. She's an honest bigot, but a bigot never the less. You, on the other hand, are just an ideologue who would probably attack your own mother if you thought Glenn Beck would approve.

Hehehehehe...Pretty Much....

I think it's important to make the distinction between a Muslim and an Islamofascist,because if you don't,you're throwing a blanket over alot od people that probably want nothing to do with the bloody violence carried out by their "faith based" brethren....

[Shady]

Of course she asserted, and you have as well on many occasions. She's an honest bigot, but a bigot never the less. You, on the other hand, are just an ideologue who would probably attack your own mother if you thought Glenn Beck would approve.

This has nothing to do with Glenn Beck. You people are obsessed!

But I'm afraid you're either misinformed or lying. Nobody has suggested that all Muslims particpate in those activities. But like I've said, Islam at the present time, has a significantly bigger problem with it than other religions. I'm sorry if the truth is offensive to you.

[ToadBrother]

But I'm afraid you're either misinformed or lying. Nobody has suggested that all Muslims particpate in those activities. But like I've said, Islam at the present time, has a significantly bigger problem with it than other religions. I'm sorry if the truth is offensive to you.

Islam is a rather diverse religion. It's like saying Christianity is responsible for the Tea Party. A lot of what gets ascribed to religion has little enough to do with it, it's just a useful placemarker for both adherents and opponents.

But really, in a religion of a billion people, even saying something like "significantly bigger problems than other religions" is so overgeneralized as to be useless. Islam is layered over a significant number of other cultures, and a lot of the problems, like honor killings and genital mutilation have almost nothing at all to do with Islam, and are often practiced by members of other faith groups in those regions (honor killings, for instance, are all too common among many groups in the traditional Indo-Iranian territories stretching from Afghanistan to Bangladesh, encompassing Islamic, Hindu and Sikh populations).

It would be like blaming Roman Catholicism for all the woes of the Latin American sphere over the last two centuries. To be sure, in certain times and places the clergy of the Church has had an unwholesome role, but one would be hard to actually ascribe any particular problem to Catholic doctrine in and of itself.

[ToadBrother]

Hehehehehe...Pretty Much....

I think it's important to make the distinction between a Muslim and an Islamofascist,because if you don't,you're throwing a blanket over alot od people that probably want nothing to do with the bloody violence carried out by their "faith based" brethren....

I still have no idea what Islamofascism means. It doesn't seem to really describe the forces at work in parts of the Muslim world. I don't think bin Laden is a Fascist. I'd say, if you strip away the religious mumbo jumbo, he and his ilk often resemble Trotskyites and other Marxists more than Fascists.

[Shady]

It's like saying Christianity is responsible for the Tea Party.

Really? A group that's concerned about taxes, deficits and debt is somehow Christian? And you're comparing the Tea Party to Islamic terrorism? You've clearly gone made.

[ToadBrother]

Really? A group that's concerned about taxes, deficits and debt is somehow Christian? And you're comparing the Tea Party to Islamic terrorism? You've clearly gone made.

Yeah, all those guys gathered at Beck's little shindig in Washington were just concerned about taxes. All this stuff about "God's back" must have been accidentally piped in from some Evangelical revival meeting by mistake.

[Shady]

Yeah, all those guys gathered at Beck's little shindig in Washington were just concerned about taxes. All this stuff about "God's back" must have been accidentally piped in from some Evangelical revival meeting by mistake.

That gathering wasn't of the Tea Party. It had nothing to do with the Tea Party, and had everything to do with Glenn Beck and his so-called 9/12 project. Believe it or not, but not every gathering of Repbulicans or conservatives is a Tea Party thing you know?

[betsy]

You see the way ToadBrother evaded the real issue of this particular topic? He ignored the question:

What is so wrong about proselytyzing in Muslim communities to try to convert them to Christianity?

Edited September 15, 2010 by betsy

[Jack Weber]

You see the way ToadBrother evaded the real issue of this particular topic? He ignored the question:

What is so wrong about proselytyzing in Muslim communities to try to convert them to Christianity?

Well...Theoretically there's nothing wrong with it if one has a death wish...

Edited September 16, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Jack Weber]

I still have no idea what Islamofascism means. It doesn't seem to really describe the forces at work in parts of the Muslim world. I don't think bin Laden is a Fascist. I'd say, if you strip away the religious mumbo jumbo, he and his ilk often resemble Trotskyites and other Marxists more than Fascists.

Perhaps Fascist is the wrong term but I don't think so....But there seems to be a backwards,almost totalitarian nationalism of thought as it relates to extreme fundimentalist Islamic sects.Extreme nationalism is a definate trait of Fascism.It always morphs from an us vs them type of thing to a we are so superior to the others that we must exterminate those who are inferior so they cannot infect our superiority.This type of thought gets clouded by the cover of what seems to be "faith",but I think it's way deeper than that because if was just a type of insular superiority,that would be fine.But it's a virulent and agressive sense of superiority,not unlike what we saw in NAZI Germany...

[GostHacked]

You see the way ToadBrother evaded the real issue of this particular topic? He ignored the question:

What is so wrong about proselytyzing in Muslim communities to try to convert them to Christianity?

Considering you have not answered some questions on other threads, I think you can let that one slide.