Hyperbole among Canadians?

[Michael Hardner]

We can agree to disagree then.

It won't be the last time.

I can't imagine what you guys would do if the NDP proposed nationalizing industries again. It would almost be worth it, if only to watch some on the board get the vapours !

[Shady]

It won't be the last time.

I can't imagine what you guys would do if the NDP proposed nationalizing industries again. It would almost be worth it, if only to watch some on the board get the vapours !

Actually, they have suggested nationalizing industries.

[Michael Hardner]

Actually, they have suggested nationalizing industries.

Touche ! You are indeed correct, I think they still want to nationalize car insurance but I haven't heard them talk about banks (or hotels) in awhile.

[bush_cheney2004]

I accept that Americans - generally - don't really need to prove what they believe and are more than adept at deriving their beliefs from very well crafted stories about a particular topic that interests them. de Tocqueville found this vulgar, I find it entirely fascinating and almost non-existant in Canada on a national level.

Splendid...such "vulgarity" is the best friend of a global hegemon.

And this is a prime example of my previous point BC. But the appearance of irony isn't lost on me how, through your consistent - and sometimes needy - comparisons between the US and Canada, I can't help but notice that you seem to spend quite a bit of time standing on guard for thee.

But that is my purpose....to oggle your way in equal measure. Let's not leave this thought without recounting a comment made yesterday by a CBC reader about the Tamil refugee tempest:

"I've had it with this

Mickey Mouse

country!"

[Michael Hardner]

b_c

Good post.

Splendid...such "vulgarity" is the best friend of a global hegemon.

Can you explain that ?

[Ratio]

Dumb is your middle name.

The TORTURE happened during Harper's government. Harper was well aware of the TORTURE and let it go on anyway.

The Supreme Court of Canada said that Harper violated Khadr's rights. That is a fact.

All your other rhetoric is irrelevent. Get it?

charter.rights is right on this one, this is all a usless debate that was caused by the neo-fascist Harper... who has an axe to grind with minorities...

why wont you recognize this plain simple fact?

[bush_cheney2004]

b_c

Good post.

Can you explain that ?

Sure...the very vulgarity and "common" attributes of American culture are the key to its success and pervasiveness. The elitism of Europe is exclusive by design. Europe had 'etiquette' for their aristocracy...America had 'manners' for common folk.

[Michael Hardner]

Sure...the very vulgarity and "common" attributes of American culture are the key to its success and pervasiveness. The elitism of Europe is exclusive by design. Europe had 'etiquette' for their aristocracy...America had 'manners' for common folk.

I find real American wisdom and practicality to be anything but vulgar, and unrelated to anecdotal associations that are misused as evidence. Even the simplest country farmer, who was successful because of his hard work and common sense, wouldn't have fallen prone to that kind of thinking.

I think America is a success *despite* that flavour of vulgarity.

But you are no ordinary American, in that you know more about America than I do.

Prove me wrong. How does vulgarity of that sort advance America ?

[Alta4ever]

charter.rights is right on this one, this is all a usless debate that was caused by the neo-fascist Harper... who has an axe to grind with minorities...

why wont you recognize this plain simple fact?

Maybe you should go back and read the supreme courts judgement. The incidents you are referring to happened in 2003 2004 that was before Harper became PM or do I need to give you a history lesson too.

Posted page two of the thread you may want to go back and read why you have no idea what you are talking about.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=16921&view=findpost&p=569915

Edited August 17, 2010 by Alta4ever

[bush_cheney2004]

....Prove me wrong. How does vulgarity of that sort advance America ?

I have embraced "vulgarity" in the context of a "superior" Europe as related by another member. So we have blue denim working class clothing as a runaway success around the world.

America's "vulgarity" is many of these things, embraced and championed by the emerging middle class along the way.

[Alta4ever]

BTW Ratio, you might want to educate yourself on political labels. The Conservative Party of Canada and Harper fall under the label of Conservative Neo-liberalism. Your hyperbole is interesting Ratio.

[M.Dancer]

I find real American wisdom and practicality to be anything but vulgar, and unrelated to anecdotal associations that are misused as evidence. Even the simplest country farmer, who was successful because of his hard work and common sense, wouldn't have fallen prone to that kind of thinking.

I think America is a success *despite* that flavour of vulgarity.

But you are no ordinary American, in that you know more about America than I do.

Prove me wrong. How does vulgarity of that sort advance America ?

By vulgar, de Tocqueville does not mean rude or offensive ..vulgar referes to ...the common folk....as in the vulgate edition of the bible...BC is correct, america's mythic fabric is about the common man, whether that common man is davy crockett, Johnny appleseed or Annie sprinkle....Britain's mythic fabric is King Arthur, and Robin Hood (a Noble outlaw)

Using the same analysis, Canada's mythic fabric, such that it is, is also made up of common folk.

[Jack Weber]

By vulgar, de Tocqueville does not mean rude or offensive ..vulgar referes to ...the common folk....as in the vulgate edition of the bible...BC is correct, america's mythic fabric is about the common man, whether that common man is davy crockett, Johnny appleseed or Annie sprinkle....Britain's mythic fabric is King Arthur, and Robin Hood (a Noble outlaw)

Using the same analysis, Canada's mythic fabric, such that it is, is also made up of common folk.

Annie Sprinkle...

Excellent '70's/'80's porn reference...

[Michael Hardner]

By vulgar, de Tocqueville does not mean rude or offensive ..vulgar referes to ...the common folk....as in the vulgate edition of the bible...BC is correct, america's mythic fabric is about the common man, whether that common man is davy crockett, Johnny appleseed or Annie sprinkle....Britain's mythic fabric is King Arthur, and Robin Hood (a Noble outlaw)

Using the same analysis, Canada's mythic fabric, such that it is, is also made up of common folk.

Yes, I had a sense of that.

But I fail to see how anecdotal evidence, as described very well by Bush_Cheney as

more than adept at deriving their beliefs from very well crafted stories about a particular topic that interests them

could ever have helped America. On the contrary, I think that America succeeded because its institutions rewarded ingenuity, dedication to public education and so on. These are all political and cultural foundations for a meritocracy which is what America is/was and what Europe isn't/wasn't.

But, from the self-educated log cabin lawyers to the careful farmers to the inventors and prospectors who became rich... making up their beliefs from well-crafted stories doesn't seem to have much to do with it.

Maybe b_c meant to say something else.

[Shwa]

I have embraced "vulgarity" in the context of a "superior" Europe as related by another member. So we have blue denim working class clothing as a runaway success around the world.

America's "vulgarity" is many of these things, embraced and championed by the emerging middle class along the way.

It has nothing to do with my personal perception of superiority of Europe, but yours:

The problem, with placing oneself second to European...

As soon as the heights of European culture are raised, the second guessing begins and there is the well known retreat into the exhaltation of the commoner as hero. But why is that? I am surprised, for all the oggling our "way" in "equal measure" you do, that no one has asked you about that stuff.

And the irony of serge de Nimes is not lost on me. A second rate French fabric...

[M.Dancer]

But I fail to see how anecdotal evidence, as described very well by Bush_Cheney as

could ever have helped America.

You don't think the stories of Kit Carson, the 49ers, Davy Crockett, the alamo et al had no impact on manifest destiny and the great push west?

[Michael Hardner]

You don't think the stories of Kit Carson, the 49ers, Davy Crockett, the alamo et al had no impact on manifest destiny and the great push west?

Yes, but those people were kind of like cannon fodder, or land fill. The late 19th and 20th century produced people like the Lehman Brothers, Henry Ford, JD Rockefeller, and Robert McNamara. I haven`t read a lot of Tocqueville (sp?) but I did read a different excerpt that spoke of the thoughtfulness of the American farmer. There`s also a tradition of frontier scholarship - self-taught people who read (and if Neil Postman is to be believed, Americans read a lot) and learned and made their own way.

It`s a pioneer spirit, guided by intelligence and common sense that I see in great America.

But, like I say, B_C knows such things, and I would like to understand what his perspective is on American thinking and American success.

[bush_cheney2004]

....But, from the self-educated log cabin lawyers to the careful farmers to the inventors and prospectors who became rich... making up their beliefs from well-crafted stories doesn't seem to have much to do with it.

Maybe b_c meant to say something else.

Not at all...the stories may or may not be "fiction", but the opportunity for "commoners" has always been very real. Canada can relate far more to this similar experience than anything seen in Europe, which actually provided the fleeing waves of immigrants from their wretched "superiority".

[bush_cheney2004]

...But, like I say, B_C knows such things, and I would like to understand what his perspective is on American thinking and American success.

I think we have already discussed this....the American Dream is about the opportunity for success, not guaranteed riches. This is consistent with your observations about individualism, effort, and merit that leaves winners and losers in its wake. Some Canadians are not comfortable with such extremes...others welcome the chance to participate.

Edited August 18, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Michael Hardner]

Not at all...the stories may or may not be "fiction", but the opportunity for "commoners" has always been very real. Canada can relate far more to this similar experience than anything seen in Europe, which actually provided the fleeing waves of immigrants from their wretched "superiority".

Right, such as in France where the commoners had been taxed so much that they were forced to dress shabbily to avoid being assessed. People hoarded money and hid it away. (No link. I read it somewhere. )

I don`t doubt that the American solution provided the framework for a meritocracy, and a powerful economy.

I was mistakenly thinking that you were breaking down the reasons for success to something really more specific - something about using narrative as an American motif for thinking about things.

Now, there is something to that, and thinking about it for a minute, I am sure we can all come up with examples. But at the heart of the American success has always been - to my mind - ideas and thinking based on observations and common sense.

[Michael Hardner]

I think we have already discussed this....the American Dream is about the opportunity for success, not guaranteed riches. This is comsistent with your observations about individualism, effort, and merit that leaves winners and losers in its wake. Some Canadians are not comfortable with such extremes...others welcome the chance to participate.

Sure. I will also submit that the Canadian model is more similar to the American one that many realize.

[Shwa]

Now, there is something to that, and thinking about it for a minute, I am sure we can all come up with examples. But at the heart of the American success has always been - to my mind - ideas and thinking based on observations and common sense.

Ideas and observations about what?

[Michael Hardner]

Ideas and observations about what?

I speak generally of the American way of thinking. B_C is right that the thinking common man was given the ability to succeed based on his work, and his brain.

Observations about what ? For Edison, electricity. For farmers, about agricultural methods, planting and so on. For political thinkers, about French philosophers and the mechanics of democracy.

[bush_cheney2004]

Sure. I will also submit that the Canadian model is more similar to the American one that many realize.

It's not so much an American model as the practical triumph of the economic and culturally obvious. Canadians and Americans live very similar lives for the most part, and have done so since the beginning. I'm beginning to think that such hyperbole is required to emphasize the much smaller magnitude of actual differences.

[Shwa]

Canada can relate far more to this similar experience than anything seen in Europe, which actually provided the fleeing waves of immigrants from their wretched "superiority".

And yet we didn't seeing that we patterned our government on the Westminster Parliament, National Assembly in QC and named ourselves after an Iroquois word that means 'town.' And lets not forget those European elites (and their damned etiquette) who came over to make their fortunes off of the natural resources or who bided their time until they could jump into the American Dream. One of the biggest "fleeing waves of immigrants" also happened to be British Loyalists after the War of Independence... Then of course there were the enticement campaigns to get people - the right kind of people - to actually come here and settle.

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore."

Nope, that is pure Americana and has very little to do with Canada.