$9 Billion No-Bid Contract for 65 F-35s

[Bonam]

The problem is that the US is the most expensive place on the planet to produce and manafucture ANYTHING. Even Americans dont buy much US made stuff anymore for that reason.

Which is why advanced aircraft are one of the few things that actually can be competitively produced in the US. For large, technologically advanced systems requiring exotic and expensive materials, the high costs of labor and standards compliance in the US becomes a far smaller share of the overall cost. Notice that the Russian planes are at most say 10-20% cheaper, whereas other classes of products can be manufactured at a tiny fraction of the cost in Asia than they could in the US.

[dre]

Which is why advanced aircraft are one of the few things that actually can be competitively produced in the US. For large, technologically advanced systems requiring exotic and expensive materials, the high costs of labor and standards compliance in the US becomes a far smaller share of the overall cost. Notice that the Russian planes are at most say 10-20% cheaper, whereas other classes of products can be manufactured at a tiny fraction of the cost in Asia than they could in the US.

I think theres some truth to that, and another factor is that manufacturing powerhouses like India and China are still tooling up for this type of activity.

[Bonam]

I think theres some truth to that, and another factor is that manufacturing powerhouses like India and China are still tooling up for this type of activity.

India and China also lack the engineering expertise to design and develop top quality aircraft. This expertise really only exists in the US, in Russia, and in Europe, and arguably the very top expertise to create truly innovative, world-leading designs, exists solely in 2 or 3 US corporations. The cost of R&D for advanced military aircraft is a substantial portion of the overall cost, especially for aircraft that are produced only in smaller numbers.

[Army Guy]

From what I can tell the T-50 will be as good or better than the F35, and might be cheaper. I guess it depends how fast we need this things... the T-50 wont be available until at least 2015.

I have no problem buying stuff from Russia or anywhere else though... wherever the best deals are. And any time we are looking at a purchase this big at least a couple of options should be explored.

Atleast that is what the Russian Media is saying that the T-50 is as good or better than the F-22 which is really in a league all to it's own....so if this is all true yes the t-50 would outclass the F-35....

problem is how many will they produce and where will they be stationed....

Buying russian equipment has serveral challages to it....a large one it looks russian....And russian equpment is very popular with bad guys....we have enough problems with blue on blue engagements already, can you imigine not only having to worry about bad guys but good guys as well...

Being part of NATO , i doubt very much that mother russia is going to sell it's state secrets while it's still in production...Russians are famous from having 2 copies of each piece one for them, and one for export....so even if we did some how get the T-50 ours would be a dumbed down version,

Buying spares....Canada would have to have some very good ties with Russia, to ensure flow of spare parts, first time we decided to engage on of thier sat countires or allies, i think that supply line would be cut....then like Iran sitting with F-14's on the runway grounded because USA would not provide any more spares....

And like the man said in the commerical save your money, Russian export equipment is shit....lets stay with a country we know is going to be there in the long run....someone who is going to give us the real thing and not some export version....and the parts are going to flow....

[bloodyminded]

Youve seen Top Gun too many times.

Which, by the way, is an unintentionally Gay movie. (Watch it again, with this in mind, if you don't believe me.)

Just sayin.'

[ZenOps]

Just another thing to add. The F-35 was designed to be mass produced from the ground up.

The original quote for a single F-35 before its completion - $35 million per unit. Could have been a great slogan "F35 for 35"

If you go by the original (and always understated quote, just like a cellphone bill or plumbing repair) We should only be paying about $2.5 Billion for these F-35's.

Edited June 24, 2010 by ZenOps

[Moonbox]

The original quote for a single F-35 before its completion - $35 million per unit. Could have been a great slogan "F35 for 35"

I would looove a reference on that. The F-15 has a $30M price tag and the F-18E has one for $60M. I'm really not sure where a $35M price comes from....

[wyly]

the manufacturer hopes to keep the cost per plane down to $60M each, but as with all things military expect to pay more...

[GostHacked]

the manufacturer hopes to keep the cost per plane down to $60M each, but as with all things military expect to pay more...

Even at 60 mil per, it's quite inexpensive.

[Army Guy]

Yes , but what is not included in that package of 60 mil per copy is things like, a parts package, munnitions package, training package for both pilot and ground crew, Simulator package, special tools and handling vehs package, and Canada does nothing without a 20 year maint package....and the list goes on, and the price will climb to well over double that 60 mil, to some where near 150 mil apiece.

[Moonbox]

Even at 60 mil per, it's quite inexpensive.

While I'm neither an engineer nor a military man, I highly doubt we'll see the F-35 going for $60M each fully equipped. Either way, the fact that it's expected to be 4x as effective as current fighters and be stealthy I'd say we're going to be looking at reasonable costs.

[segnosaur]

Which, by the way, is an unintentionally Gay movie. (Watch it again, with this in mind, if you don't believe me.)

Just sayin.'

Maddox agrees...

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=five_shitty_movies

[wyly]

India and China also lack the engineering expertise to design and develop top quality aircraft. This expertise really only exists in the US, in Russia, and in Europe, and arguably the very top expertise to create truly innovative, world-leading designs, exists solely in 2 or 3 US corporations. The cost of R&D for advanced military aircraft is a substantial portion of the overall cost, especially for aircraft that are produced only in smaller numbers.

probably why Russians are developing the T-50 with India...India is a very technological capable nation...

[bloodyminded]

Maddox agrees...

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=five_shitty_movies

While I apologize for any further digression of this thread, I got to say, that's damn funny.

Of course, I might only think it's funny because I agree with him on every movie he slams here ("I agree with him, so he's funny!"), and because I find insulting adolescent humour hilarious. Yes, that's definitely it.

Edited June 24, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Moonbox]

probably why Russians are developing the T-50 with India...India is a very technological capable nation...

They're still waaay behind the west though

[PIK]

Why can't we just sole sourse a ice breaker from someone on the east coast and get it built, the chinese are lauching thiers in 3 years.

[wyly]

They're still waaay behind the west though

really, ever notice how many of our engineers are from India?...India in 2005 had 200,000 engineering graduates three times as many as the USA and twice as many as the EU, and that number was expected to double by 2009....does Canada have it's own Space Launch Program? how does Canada's research into Hypersonic Flight compare to India's? has Canada launched a probe to the moon as yet?...India has a $2 Billion military research budget Canada has what? and that budget doesn't accurately represent how far those $ go, their wages/overhead are much less than ours...they're not waaaay behind the west...

[wyly]

Why can't we just sole sourse a ice breaker from someone on the east coast and get it built, the chinese are lauching thiers in 3 years.

I rather we had two or three icebreakers than 100 fighter planes flying over the ice, they're absolutely useless waste of money...

[M.Dancer]

really, ever notice how many of our engineers are from India?...

Ever notice how often train crash or buses fall of of roads in india? They need engineers...

...and you know why they come here?

for the advanced experiance they can't get there.

Edited June 24, 2010 by M.Dancer

[Bonam]

really, ever notice how many of our engineers are from India?...India in 2005 had 200,000 engineering graduates three times as many as the USA and twice as many as the EU

It's not all about quantity. If you want to make a bunch of mundane engineers to make roads, powerplants, tractors, factories, etc, fine. But for space programs and advanced military programs, it's much more about quality. You need the brightest minds and the best educations. No universities in India have the world class engineering education programs that one can obtain in the US at places like MIT and Caltech, nor do any Indian corporations have the expertise to turn out anything comparable to the projects regularly undertaken by companies like Lockheed Martin and Boeing.

and that number was expected to double by 2009....does Canada have it's own Space Launch Program? how does Canada's research into Hypersonic Flight compare to India's? has Canada launched a probe to the moon as yet?...India has a $2 Billion military research budget Canada has what?

Why compare to Canada? Canada is a non-factor in this field. But F35s aren't Canadian, they are American. And the USA is the world leader in these things you mention. India and China may be rising stars, but they are still FAR below America's level of technological sophistication when it comes to aerospace.

[dre]

Ever notice how often train crash or buses fall of of roads in india? They need engineers...

...and you know why they come here?

for the advanced experiance they can't get there.

Actually the reason why lots of Indian engineers are coming here, and even more engineering projects are being outsourced to India is because our engineers cost too much. The fact is India is producing a ton of good engineers and other skilled professionals. Companies are literally tripping over themselves trying to fire US engineers and hire Indians as fast as they can.

[Moonbox]

really, ever notice how many of our engineers are from India?...India in 2005 had 200,000 engineering graduates three times as many as the USA and twice as many as the EU, and that number was expected to double by 2009....

This is a really funny statistic. Did you know that India's population is around 3 times the size of the USAs, and nearly twice as high as the EU's?

Actually the reason why lots of Indian engineers are coming here, and even more engineering projects are being outsourced to India is because our engineers cost too much. The fact is India is producing a ton of good engineers and other skilled professionals. Companies are literally tripping over themselves trying to fire US engineers and hire Indians as fast as they can.

They're hiring cheaper Indian engineers. That speaks only of their lower wage expectations, not the quality of their engineering. If India or China had the expertise and knowledge their American or European counterparts had, they'd be building F-35's themselves.

The fact that the Indians are coming to North America to work is rather telling as well. There's brain drain going on. We're taking their better engineers.

Edited June 24, 2010 by Moonbox

[bush_cheney2004]

....The fact that the Indians are coming to North America to work is rather telling as well. There's brain drain going on. We're taking their better engineers.

Moreover, it is American engineering firms setting up shop in India (e.g. Bangalore), not the other way around.

[wyly]

This is a really funny statistic. Did you know that India's population is around 3 times the size of the USAs, and nearly twice as high as the EU's?

there's not much I don't know...the stat is relevent this is a third world nation that's producing all these engineers, USA per capita income is $46,000, India's is $3,000...they're kicking our butts...

They're hiring cheaper Indian engineers. That speaks only of their lower wage expectations, not the quality of their engineering. If India or China had the expertise and knowledge their American or European counterparts had, they'd be building F-35's themselves.

their quality is top notch...you forget they're a third world nation with a relatively small amount of cash to spend a $2 billion research budget is small change compared to what the US and Russia spend they're being practical letting another country do all or most of the expensive research and buying the finished product...

The fact that the Indians are coming to North America to work is rather telling as well. There's brain drain going on. We're taking their better engineers.

no they're filling spaces we can't fill because we can't train enough engineers and we would take thousands more if we weren't at the limit of how many we take in per year......

[M.Dancer]

Actually the reason why lots of Indian engineers are coming here, and even more engineering projects are being outsourced to India is because our engineers cost too much.

So you think indian engineers working in North America get paid less than North American Engineers working here?

And speaking of engineering project outsourced to India...how do you outsource a dam, or a bridge?

You have a source for that brain fart?