$9 Billion No-Bid Contract for 65 F-35s

[PIK]

All bullshit aside, we are barking up the wrong tree. WE need to think carefully about this. There has to be a way to do this, we just need to figure it our.

It already has been figured out, now lets get on with it and not wait another 10 years to buy the same thing.

[DogOnPorch]

Not mentioned yet: The political fall-out with our friends, the USA, when Canada arrives home with a basket full of MiGs...

But, but, but...the Cold War is over...isn't it?

Edited October 23, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[Topaz]

IF the Tories are SO sure of this plane, then if it turns out to cost more than it should than the Tory party and its supporters should put their money were their mouth is and cough up the differences if the cost skyrocket OR use common sense, and have an open bid!

[DogOnPorch]

The RS-24 was created and put into service last summer (2010) in response to US anti-missile technology...but there's no Cold war. So it'd be perfectly fine in America's eyes for the neighbour to the north to hop into bed with the Rooshins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-24

[DogOnPorch]

IF the Tories are SO sure of this plane, then if it turns out to cost more than it should than the Tory party and its supporters should put their money were their mouth is and cough up the differences if the cost skyrocket OR use common sense, and have an open bid!

Open bid for what? What are our other choices?

[Moonbox]

my research tells me OLS with IR on the Su 35's has an estimated range of detection of 150Km and has no issues detecting stealth planes...effective range of F22 missiles 30-45km...the stealth planes will be detected well before they are within range...stealth will be useless unless it's used against third world countries with old equipment,

Your 'research' is pure balogna and you've shown dozens of times in this thread that you don't know anything about what you're talking about. The ranges you offer above are complete bull****, as are your evaluations of stealth technology. Stealth planes aren't invincible, or undetectable, but reducing your radar signature down to the size of a baseball has enormous advantages. There's a reason both the Russians and the US are investing heavily in stealth technology, and that's because by THEIR evaluations (and they're the most advanced in the world with this stuff) it WORKS.

it'll be a colossal waste of money...the Typhoon for the same money would be a better choice than the F35, if you're going to be seen anyways at least have a better plane...but as we'll never be battling the chinese, indians or russians save a lot of money and buy a super hornet...

The Typhoon is completely outclassed by the F-22 and the F-35 by nearly all accounts. If you're going to have the better plane, yes, you should have the better plane.

if you tell yourself that a thousand times may will start to believe it, no doubt you already have...history is full military leaders who made the fatal error of underestimating the opponent and believing their own hype...

Actually, history is full of morons who go to war with outdated/obsolete equipment and end up paying for it. (Check out operation Barbarossa)

Edited October 25, 2010 by Moonbox

[Jerry J. Fortin]

North America is different. The nations of this continent can do far worse than rethink a "Fortress North America" concept. The entire business of defending a nation is a tadd out of date when you think about it. Its not really possible anymore, 9/11 should have woke folks up to that reality. The true task at hand is continental defense, nothing less. Does the F35 work for that, in a word, yes.

[Smallc]

Your 'research' is pure balogna and you've shown dozens of times in this thread that you don't know anything about what you're talking about. The ranges you offer above are complete bull****, as are your evaluations of stealth technology. Stealth planes aren't invincible, or undetectable, but reducing your radar signature down to the size of a baseball has enormous advantages.

Marble (F-22) and golfball (F-35) actually.

[Wilber]

Actually, history is full of morons who go to war with outdated/obsolete equipment and end up paying for it.

That's exactly what Canada did in the two World Wars and our troops did pay dearly for it until we got our act together.

[Moonbox]

Marble (F-22) and golfball (F-35) actually.

Haha thanks. There you go. Fighter doctrine today stresses the importance of first detection, meaning whoever sees who first wins. Who is going to see who first? The fighter with the 45ft radar signature, or the one with the golfball radar signature? Hmmmm....

That's exactly what Canada did in the two World Wars and our troops did pay dearly for it until we got our act together.

We entered WW2 with WW1 rifles and tanks that couldn't punch through their opposing tank's armor. It cost us not just lives, but tons of money too having to rapidly procure acceptable equipment at the last minute.

[Rue]

To be fair, if we had decided the F35 was the plane for us we had no choice but to wait to see if the Americans would commit first!

The plane would never have been built based on the size of order that Canada could place. It would be just too small.

Many other nations have also bought this plane including Britain, Israel, Australia and it appears Saudi Arabia and Turkey and Holland. There is some contraversy now as to w hetehr its the best plane out there or hyped. I suspect some of that may be from competitors yes.

I am also not so sure why the deal was done so quickly and privately. One never knows with these back door lobbying results who rattled whose cage and called in what favour.

That said it should not be a surprise Canada would want to buy the same fighter the US is committing itself to. That should be no surprise.

Is it long range enough? Should we have two engines given the huge geographic distances between air stations and the need to assure the plane can get back? Is it configured for the right kind of roles we need? I have read some stories saying it is and is not.

So Wild Bill I will say until you get up in one, fly it and report back to me, I will stay neutral on the choice of this craft.

For those of you who do not know, Slim Pickens the man riding the missile at the end of Dr. Strangelove was based on Wild Bill.

I hope I am not blowing your cover their Wild One.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Rue

[Argus]

IF the Tories are SO sure of this plane, then if it turns out to cost more than it should than the Tory party and its supporters should put their money were their mouth is and cough up the differences if the cost skyrocket OR use common sense, and have an open bid!

How about if the Liberals don't want to buy it they can cough up the $160 million they committed us to for its development?

[The_Squid]

How about if the Liberals don't want to buy it they can cough up the $160 million they committed us to for its development?

Now you are cross-posting.... see my response in the other thread...

no, not that one... the other one. Too many threads!!

[Shakeyhands]

Was this an open tender or a no bid situation?

[YEGmann]

Was this an open tender or a no bid situation?

Enjoy!

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/battle-x-planes/

[Shakeyhands]

Enjoy!

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/battle-x-planes/

It's a very cool fighter, but did they Gov't put this out to tender or was it a no bid scenario? I had a telephone conversation with my local MP and think he may have fibbed, just want to make sure.

[YEGmann]

It's a very cool fighter, but did they Gov't put this out to tender or was it a no bid scenario? I had a telephone conversation with my local MP and think he may have fibbed, just want to make sure.

Did you watch the movie? There was the most expensive tender in the history of military aviation. There were two bidders. Lockheed-Martin-led group won.

[Shakeyhands]

Did you watch the movie? There was the most expensive tender in the history of military aviation. There were two bidders. Lockheed-Martin-led group won.

No I didn't, I figured it was a technical movie. I'll go back and watch it now.

[Mr.Canada]

Yes I know I am necro'ing a thread. I didn't want to make a new one on the same subject.

I know that earlier I was blindly believing that the F35 is the best plane for Canada but after looking at it more closely I am realizing that I may have been wrong.

I recently watched the fifth estate program on the F 35 and am starting to think that the F35 may not be the best plane for Canada. While I do think we do need to replace our jets I'm not convinced that we need a strike fighter. Plus the cost of these planes is out of control. That's the biggest thing for me is the cost.

At the same time I would like to have the actual Canadian fighter pilots pick the plane not politicians. I'd like to see Canada form a group including however many active duty fighter pilots in our air force. I'd like for them to fly each of the planes Canada is considering and make reports then decide on this which plane best fits Canadas needs.

It doesn't make sense for Canada to have a plane like the F35 that appears has many short comings.

[Guest Derek L]

Yes I know I am necro'ing a thread. I didn't want to make a new one on the same subject.

I know that earlier I was blindly believing that the F35 is the best plane for Canada but after looking at it more closely I am realizing that I may have been wrong.

I recently watched the fifth estate program on the F 35 and am starting to think that the F35 may not be the best plane for Canada. While I do think we do need to replace our jets I'm not convinced that we need a strike fighter. Plus the cost of these planes is out of control. That's the biggest thing for me is the cost.

At the same time I would like to have the actual Canadian fighter pilots pick the plane not politicians. I'd like to see Canada form a group including however many active duty fighter pilots in our air force. I'd like for them to fly each of the planes Canada is considering and make reports then decide on this which plane best fits Canadas needs.

It doesn't make sense for Canada to have a plane like the F35 that appears has many short comings.

The politicians picked the F-35 on the advice of the Air Force………….The RCAF and the fighter community in particular, want the F-35 for numerous reasons……….When the F-35 is delivered to the RCAF, it will be the first fighter since the Sabre (1950s) that is the top pick of both the air force and the pilots that will fly them……….All other selections since the 50s were the result of politicians choosing based on largess and attempting to square a circle that doesn’t need squared.

[waldo]

The politicians picked the F-35 on the advice of the Air Force…………

peddle your shinola... elsewhere, hey!

Air Force's F-35 recommendation was missing key information - Report did not have important data on competing aircraft

But the air force report that backed that recommendation, obtained by the fifth estate, reveals that when the Canadian military visited four other nations that were peddling competing fighter jets they were denied classified information every time.

.

The fifth estate investigation also reveals that, four years later, prior to the Harper government’s controversial 2010 announcement to sole-source the Lockheed Martin-built F-35, the subsequent information Canada obtained about competing aircraft came from the U.S. Joint Strike Fighter office — the very people with the most to gain from selling Canada the F-35.

[Mr.Canada]

I'm really starting to get scared of the price of these F35's. I watched that program and thats what got me thinking that maybe these aren't the best jets for us. I want us to have an up to date jet but at a reasonable pricetag. I'd really like to pilots to fly each of the competetitors jets and decide for themselves which one they like best for Canadas needs. That price tag of the F35 keeps going higher and that scares me because the perceived value is dropping.

[Guest Derek L]

I'm really starting to get scared of the price of these F35's. I watched that program and thats what got me thinking that maybe these aren't the best jets for us. I want us to have an up to date jet but at a reasonable pricetag. I'd really like to pilots to fly each of the competetitors jets and decide for themselves which one they like best for Canadas needs. That price tag of the F35 keeps going higher and that scares me because the perceived value is dropping.

Members of the RCAF have already flown the (Numerous times with the USN through exchange programs dating back to the 90s) Super Hornet and several pilots (Perhaps more) have flown the Eurofighter on exchange with the Luftwaffe……………..To say nothing of the countless exercises and military operations the RCAF has participated in (and in the case of the annual exercise Maple Flag, hosted) with the USN (Super Hornet) and the German Luftwaffe, RAF, Spanish and Italian air forces (Eurofighter) and the French air force and navy (Rafale).

[Wild Bill]

I'm really starting to get scared of the price of these F35's. I watched that program and thats what got me thinking that maybe these aren't the best jets for us. I want us to have an up to date jet but at a reasonable pricetag. I'd really like to pilots to fly each of the competetitors jets and decide for themselves which one they like best for Canadas needs. That price tag of the F35 keeps going higher and that scares me because the perceived value is dropping.

As has been said Mr. Canada, those that fly our fighters want the F-35. What's more, no other plane has the stealth capability. In modern war if a plane doesn't have good stealth you might as well paint bullseyes all over it. It would be a flying death trap.

Don't worry about it. I am confident that Canada will end up either with no new fighters or fighters that are woefully inadequate for any needed job. Politicians will congratulate themselves for saving money and our brave pilots will just keep their fingers crossed that they never have to fly them into modern combat.

It would be less painful just to commit suicide.

[waldo]

What's more, no other plane has the stealth capability. In modern war if a plane doesn't have good stealth you might as well paint bullseyes all over it. It would be a flying death trap.

please... you keep harping on this. Educate yourself - or at least try to keep current with these F-35 related threads. Yeesh!