Canada Needs the Old Liberal Party

DrGreenthumb · May 20, 2010

You are making an assumption, Dr. The right is far more than just social conservatives. To a Libertarian like myself, the Left is a worse disease!

I never made any such assumption. I AM a Libertarian. I don't give a shit about wealth. I'm happy as long as I have enough to support my family and the government stays out of my personal life. This current incarnation of the right is controlled by social conservative religious control freaks. If you support them I don't see how you can call yourself Libertarian at all. Harper pretty much said straight out that Libertarians and their views are not welcome in his party. There is a big difference between the Right, and the RELIGIOUS RIGHT. The current Conservative party has no respect for liberty and is all about advancing their religious zealot agenda. I am right of centre on many issues myself,and have voted Progressive Conservative many times in the past, but those issues are not enough for me to sell out the personal freedoms of my fellow Canadians. Freedom first, money a distant, distant second, maybe even third or fourth.

M.Dancer · May 20, 2010

left leaning socialists don't take away personal freedoms, leftist socialists are about limiting corporate freedoms...

Corporate freedoms are often personal freedoms....such as the freedom to conduct business, the freedom to work...taxes on the otherhand are a direct assault on personal freedom....

Argus · May 20, 2010

left leaning socialists don't take away personal freedoms,

Drivel, of course. Almost all the limits on our personal freedom have arisen from the Left. The Left despises individual rights because the Left despises individuality. The Left is all about "the good of the community" and it has no hesitation in limiting personal freedom at all levels in the name of some higher social good.

The Left thus limits what kind of business you can operate, and where, and how you must treat your customers and your staff. If you own a home, the Left will tell you what the height of your fence can be, prohibit you from using pesticides, ban you from cutting down your own trees, or making changes to the internal structure of the home without their permission. The Left will decide what manner of garbage should be thrown out, and where and when, and in what manner on your behalf. The Left will decide what manner of speech is acceptable for you to utter, and ban it if it offends them or any of their constituency. The Left will decide what manner of books or movies or pictures are acceptable for you to view, and ban the rest. The Left will tell you how to treat your pet and your children, and it will force you to hand over as much of your money as it possibly can so that it can re-allocate it to those they believe are more deserving of it. It will tax you to discourage the consumption of goods and services it consders improper and use the money to encourage the success of enterprises you care little about. It will promote cultural values which are antithetical to yours, with your money, and then sneer at you for being so backward as to disagree either with their aims or their use of your money to further those aims. It will do all this in a mindlessly conceited fashion so that, ultimately, it achieves very little of its aims but wastes all your money regardless. Then it will blame you for its failures and raise your taxes again.

Jack Weber · May 20, 2010

Corporate freedoms are often personal freedoms....such as the freedom to conduct business, the freedom to work...taxes on the otherhand are a direct assault on personal freedom....

Yes and no...Interesting you chose the "freedom to work" line...

Could you clarify that,please?

jbg · May 20, 2010

left leaning socialists don't take away personal freedoms, leftist socialists are about limiting corporate freedoms...restricting personal freedoms has always been the agenda of the social conservatives while giving unrestricted freedoms to corporate interests...personal freedom trumps corporate freedom IMO

The Great Leap Forward;
The Cultural Revolution;
The collectivization of the Ukraine and the accompanying Holodomer famines; and
The Pol Pot collectivization.

In short, you've got to be kidding.

ironstone · May 20, 2010

Majority governments spend less than minority governments.

In addition, the Chretien Liberal government (with Paul Martin as Finance Minister) was careful spending our collective money.

This Harper government has been profligate.

----

I would suffer Sponsorgate, even a hotel in Shawinigan, to bring back a Chretien as PM and a PM as Finance Minister.

I want a government that spends wisely, and less.

----

This Harper government spends like a drunken sailor. Too much , and unwisely.

I agree,the Harper government spends too much.However,the Chretien government was very over rated in my opinion.They were no fiscal geniuses,all they did was pass on the cost's to the provinces.It's the same taxpayer that keeps getting screwed here.We need all governments to be fiscally responsible and that's just not the case.

Trudeau is the most revered of all Liberals,but a failure with financial matters.

Alta4ever · May 21, 2010

I never made any such assumption. I AM a Libertarian. I don't give a shit about wealth. I'm happy as long as I have enough to support my family and the government stays out of my personal life.

And yet you support the NDP which wants to expand the role of government.

You are what is called an oxymoron.

Alta4ever · May 21, 2010

wyly, on 20 May 2010 - 02:34 PM, said:
left leaning socialists don't take away personal freedoms,

And yet they won't give us property rights.

Socialists do take away rights, the soviet union removed many freedoms like the freedom of religion. The Chinese socialist have removed freedom of expression and ban internet sights. Venezuela has all but removed the freedom of the press in that country.

left leaning socialists don't take away personal freedoms, keep deluding yourself with lies, history doesn't agree with you.

DrGreenthumb · May 21, 2010

And yet you support the NDP which wants to expand the role of government.

You are what is called an oxymoron.

Oh please give me a break, there is no greater threat to the freedom of people than an increase in surveillance, cops and prisons. I'm not your everyday NDP either, I'm not that partisan, I've even voted Progressive Conservative , reform, and Liberal before. It is only Harper and his merry band of police state loving fundamentalist thugs that I so strongly oppose. I believe in property rights, and the right to own firearms for personal and home protection. I am not ready to trade off my freedoms, or those of my fellow Canadians for some false promise of greater security. I have never felt unsafe in any part of Canada ever, and we certainly do not need to start locking up thousands of our children to please Harper and his religious crusaders.

Alta4ever · May 21, 2010

Oh please give me a break, there is no greater threat to the freedom of people than an increase in surveillance, cops and prisons. I'm not your everyday NDP either, I'm not that partisan, I've even voted Progressive Conservative , reform, and Liberal before. It is only Harper and his merry band of police state loving fundamentalist thugs that I so strongly oppose. I believe in property rights, and the right to own firearms for personal and home protection. I am not ready to trade off my freedoms, or those of my fellow Canadians for some false promise of greater security. I have never felt unsafe in any part of Canada ever, and we certainly do not need to start locking up thousands of our children to please Harper and his religious crusaders.

All things the NDP doesn't support.

What freedoms has the conservative government removed from you? I haven't seen any changes to the charter.

Edited May 21, 2010 by Alta4ever

DrGreenthumb · May 21, 2010

All things the NDP doesn't support.

What freedoms has the conservative government removed from you? I haven't seen any changes to the charter.

I don't have to agree with the NDP on everything, their stance on civil liberties issues makes them the best fit currently for someone interested in personal freedom. I also like the senate contrary to NDP policy. I bet I could find other things I don't like about them too, I don't feel the need to defend EVERYTHING they do like most COn supporters I have met. There are still some left like Wild Bill who can admit when the CPC are advocating a stupid policy but guys like him are few and far between among CPC supporters.

Alta4ever · May 21, 2010

I don't have to agree with the NDP on everything, their stance on civil liberties issues makes them the best fit currently for someone interested in personal freedom. I also like the senate contrary to NDP policy. I bet I could find other things I don't like about them too, I don't feel the need to defend EVERYTHING they do like most COn supporters I have met. There are still some left like Wild Bill who can admit when the CPC are advocating a stupid policy but guys like him are few and far between among CPC supporters.

The people like Wild Bill are more common then you think. I don't agree with all policies but they are the only party that advances policies of reducing the size of the government not increasing it.

DrGreenthumb · May 21, 2010

The people like Wild Bill are more common then you think. I don't agree with all policies but they are the only party that advances policies of reducing the size of the government not increasing it.

The police and prison system are big government. The tough on "crime" BS is increasing governmet. How has Harper reduced the size of government in ANY way? Please tell me. He has the biggest cabinet ever and spends more than any previous PM. They want to increase the number of MP's . All I've seen from Harper is BIGGER government and More Police State BS. 33 party hacks appointed to the senate in 18 months?

Alta4ever · May 21, 2010

The police and prison system are big government. The tough on "crime" BS is increasing governmet. How has Harper reduced the size of government in ANY way? Please tell me. He has the biggest cabinet ever and spends more than any previous PM. They want to increase the number of MP's . All I've seen from Harper is BIGGER government and More Police State BS. 33 party hacks appointed to the senate in 18 months?

Come on 33 party hacks, the whole senate is politically appointed hacks. Until it becomes elected that will never change.

As for making the government smaller they have put in place bureaucratic hiring freezes, and removed positions in the civil service.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_state

The inhabitants of a police state experience restrictions on their mobility, and on their freedom to express or communicate political or other views, which are subject to police monitoring or enforcement. Political control may be exerted by means of a secret police force which operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional state.[1]

I don't think any of those items listed here have been enacted making this a police state. So tell me how they are increasing the "police state" when clearly Canada does not fit the definition.

August1991 · May 21, 2010

Alta4Ever and GreenThumb, I don't quite understand your dispute but I reckon that the CBC should hire both of you to argue this in public.

Unfortunately, the CBC (even Radio Canada) is now missing the debate of life. Such is political correctness.

---

As ee cummings wrote: "There's a hell of a good universe next door, let's go.. "

The Left wing/CBC types know who ee cummings was but they sadly miss his point.

Edited May 21, 2010 by August1991

Alta4ever · May 21, 2010

Alta4Ever and GreenThumb, I don't quite understand your dispute but I reckon that the CBC should hire both of you to argue this in public.

Unfortunately, the CBC (even Radio Canada) is now missing the debate of life. Such is political correctness.

My dispute is the misuse of terms like police state, and fundamentalist christian, ect.

Edited May 21, 2010 by Alta4ever

DrGreenthumb · May 21, 2010

Come on 33 party hacks, the whole senate is politically appointed hacks. Until it becomes elected that will never change.

As for making the government smaller they have put in place bureaucratic hiring freezes, and removed positions in the civil service.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_state

I don't think any of those items listed here have been enacted making this a police state. So tell me how they are increasing the "police state" when clearly Canada does not fit the definition.

The things they want to do DO fit that category. Due to all his proroguery and calling snap elections a lot of his police state stuff hasn't come to fruition yet, but with a majority and a freshly stacked senate he'll be polishing those jackboots daily with the blood of those nasty homos and dirty pot smokers. They have already expessed a desire to more closely monitor people's internet use. Authoritariam scum. Enemies of freedom, you will never change my mind about his dictator attitude and a good many Canadians agree with me.

DrGreenthumb · May 21, 2010

My dispute is the misuse of terms like police state, and fundamentalist christian, ect.

You don't get to decide the meaning of those things because they are subjective terms, IMO quite appropriate discriptors of Harper's band of merry Biblethumpers.

Edited May 21, 2010 by DrGreenthumb

Alta4ever · May 21, 2010

You don't get to decide the meaning of those things because they are subjective terms, IMO quite appropriate discriptors of Harper's band of merry Biblethumpers.

I didn't define them, those who write encyclopedias have but your use of them is not fitting the proper definition of the terms.

Alta4ever · May 21, 2010

The things they want to do DO fit that category. Due to all his proroguery and calling snap elections a lot of his police state stuff hasn't come to fruition yet, but with a majority and a freshly stacked senate he'll be polishing those jackboots daily with the blood of those nasty homos and dirty pot smokers. They have already expessed a desire to more closely monitor people's internet use. Authoritariam scum. Enemies of freedom, you will never change my mind about his dictator attitude and a good many Canadians agree with me.

lets have a second look.

restrictions on mobility.....nope, hasn't happened no pending bills that reflect this no party policy that reflects it either

restrictions on freedom to express or communicate political or other views... nope

Political control may be exerted by means of a secret police force which operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional state.... nope on this on too party has no policies that relfect this either

So it looks like you are imagining a good may things as the facts do not support you position on this.

All this is, is your vested interest vendetta against the conservatives because they do not have any plans to legalize pot.

DrGreenthumb · May 21, 2010

I didn't define them, those who write encyclopedias have but your use of them is not fitting the proper definition of the terms.

Do you think a police state just arrives overnight or does it happen incrementally? I think we need to guard against it and recognize the signs of its approach and recognize those whose lust for power and control would lead them to implement it.

Alta4ever · May 21, 2010

Do you think a police state just arrives overnight or does it happen incrementally? I think we need to guard against it and recognize the signs of its approach and recognize those whose lust for power and control would lead them to implement it.

Police states arrive through totalitarian government and a modern example of a move to a police state would be what is happening in Venezuela.

wyly · May 21, 2010

The Great Leap Forward;

The Cultural Revolution;

The collectivization of the Ukraine and the accompanying Holodomer famines; and

The Pol Pot collectivization.

In short, you've got to be kidding.

in short you're a yank and your knowledge of socialism would fit on the head of a pin...

Smallc · May 21, 2010

I don't agree with all policies but they are the only party that advances policies of reducing the size of the government not increasing it.

They have never actually done that. They may talk about it, but they don't mean it, because it's hard and often unrealistic. The last party to actually shrink government was the Chretien Liberals....but no Conservative supporter actually gives them anything.

myata · May 21, 2010

There are many who'd speak on behalf of Canada with unknown mandate to do so, but what Canadian voters appear to be telling us for a while now, is what no one party can speak for Canada, or even any one side of political spectrum of Canada, and parties have to find a way to cooperate and advance common priorities for the benefit of the country.