bloodyminded Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 I think the Iman is overstating his case here... It is a simplistic to equate any and all opposition to his project as Islamophobia. At the same time, it is simplistic and quite frankly naive to ignore the fact that hate-mongerers (on both sides) are having a field day. Certainly there is plenty of opposition that isn't fuelled by hate or ignorance. And for those who aren't, they are not responsible for those who are. None of us can much help it when the crazies choose to share our demographic on some issue or other. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
CANADIEN Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 (edited) Certainly there is plenty of opposition that isn't fuelled by hate or ignorance. And for those who aren't, they are not responsible for those who are. None of us can much help it when the crazies choose to share our demographic on some issue or other. I could not have stated that fact better myself. Except for one thing... people have the option not to let the crazies highjack the message. Edited September 12, 2010 by CANADIEN Quote
Guest American Woman Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 Certainly there is plenty of opposition that isn't fuelled by hate or ignorance. And for those who aren't, they are not responsible for those who are. None of us can much help it when the crazies choose to share our demographic on some issue or other. Ironically, you're speaking to someone who accuses others of what they don't believe ...... even when they've clearly stated otherwise ......... Quote
Guest American Woman Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 No guys... Shady is right all the way. It is not possible for somebody to see a piece of information somewhere, absorb it than retrieving it from his memory a few years later... What's also possible is for someone to see a piece of information somewhere, and through the passing of time, not remember it exactly the way it was. Nothing wrong with asking for a source. I'm sure you would be demanding a source if someone made a similar claim, from memory, from a few years ago -- and if you try to say otherwise, you're a liar. Everything, and I mean everything is on the Web... which means I didn't have a conversation with some friends this morning about their honeymoon, but I digress... A conversation with your friends about their honeymoon isn't comparable to claiming figures from a poll about an entire nation, so your ignorance is showing full force if you believe it is. Again. If someone said that they read somewhere, a few years ago, that 25-30% of American Muslims think the U.S. should be more like the Middle East, I'm sure you wouldn't be asking for a source, eh? You'd just accept it as "someone seeing a piece of information somewhere, absorbing it, and then retrieving it from their memory a few years later," while also accepting that not all information is on the web. Suuuuuuure you would. The only reason I'm not asking for a link is because I actually found the information. On the web. I wouldn't be fool enough to blindly accept information like that without a source. Quote
bloodyminded Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 Ironically, you're speaking to someone who accuses others of what they don't believe ...... even when they've clearly stated otherwise ......... I responded directly to a remark he made, and with which I agree. That's all. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
bloodyminded Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 (edited) I could not have stated that fact better myself. Except for one thing... people have the option not to let the crazies highjack the message. Sure, well, they have the option to try. But we can't ask much more than that. Ultimately there's not much one can do. I can criticize Israel's war on Gaza. But if someone, who also criticizes it, starts ranting about the Jews controlling the world through Zionist Hollywood...well, I can take that person on, sure, but I'm not going to expend all my energy on this, just for the sake of avoiding being (dishonestly) lumped in with this person. There are always multiple choices of focus and criticism to be made. None of us can take on everything. Edited September 12, 2010 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
dre Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 Ironically, you're speaking to someone who accuses others of what they don't believe ...... even when they've clearly stated otherwise ......... Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Shady Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 I'm still waiting to here why I'm anti-american. You're one giant bad-breathed mouth of anit-Americanism. It's all you post about. Europeans are more educated, healthier, happier and live longer. When someone gets it right, we should try to emulate it, not try to break it down. I have many Muslim friends, many of whom absolutely refuse to travel through the US due to the awful treatment they recieve at airports and border crossings. My thesis is that it's a response to the decline if not death of the ideal of American Exceptionalism; the notion that America is a shining beacon of freedom for the rest of the world. The US constitution makes it nearly impossible for the US system to reinvigorate itself The few I've checked through simple google all have Canada rated at least a full point higher than the US. 5000 US dead, 30,000 US casualties, a million Iraqi dead and the only thing the US accomplished was the removal of a bloodthirsty dictator that will be replaced by another blood thirsty dictator in a year? The US attempted to project power and failed miserably. No one can blame Muslims for this. This is all on the non-muslim American public. You're a rabid anit-American bigot. And it shows up in pretty much all of your posts. I don't think I've ever seen this level of bigotry and prejudice in this forum. Quote
CANADIEN Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 What's also possible is for someone to see a piece of information somewhere, and through the passing of time, not remember it exactly the way it was. Nothing wrong with asking for a source. I'm sure you would be demanding a source if someone made a similar claim, from memory, from a few years ago -- and if you try to say otherwise, you're a liar. Actually, I would ask if they remember the source, and if they didn't i would leave it at that. That is, whether or not I give credence to the claim would be based on whether or not I think it makes sense. One thing I would not do is go around saying "you made it all up" just because I don't like the claim being made As to whether or not you believe when I say this, ask me if I care about your opinion of me. A conversation with your friends about their honeymoon isn't comparable to claiming figures from a poll about an entire nation, so your ignorance is showing full force if you believe it is. No, it can't be... You cannot be failing to see that I DELIBARATELY EXXAGERATED things to mock Shady. Quote
CANADIEN Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 Sure, well, they have the option to try. But we can't ask much more than that. Ultimately there's not much one can do. I can criticize Israel's war on Gaza. But if someone, who also criticizes it, starts ranting about the Jews controlling the world through Zionist Hollywood...well, I can take that person on, sure, but I'm not going to expend all my energy on this, just for the sake of avoiding being (dishonestly) lumped in with this person. There are always multiple choices of focus and criticism to be made. None of us can take on everything. Once again, well put. Most certainly, the point of not letting the crazies take all the place is not to be confused with them... It is to make sure that one's message is the one being heard. On another point... When I say I don't believe someone, it is not because of what somebody else says... It is because I do not believe what THEY say. Period. Quote
nicky10013 Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 You're one giant bad-breathed mouth of anit-Americanism. It's all you post about You're a rabid anit-American bigot. And it shows up in pretty much all of your posts. I don't think I've ever seen this level of bigotry and prejudice in this forum. Ah, so being truthful is being anti-american. The US wasn't able to project power, my friends are treated badly. American exceptionalism is faltering. This in no way implies Anti-Americanism, I just have a certain distaste for some US policy. There's a difference. I could point out a million things I don't like about Canada as well, however, that doesn't make me anti-Canadian. Indeed, it was Thomas Jefferson who said that dissent is the highest form of patriotism. You're just using my opposition to some American policy to lambaste me with certain accusations with no basis in reality in hopes I'll shut up. Among other things, this is a really poor form of censorship; hilarious since you portray yourself as someone completely in support of freedom of speech (yet more hypocrisy). Not unlike BCs attempt to portray my feeling of a failure in Iraq to me hating US troops. This isn't the case at all. If anything, I feel horribly that these poor kids were sent to Iraq to get killed for no reason anyone can rightly ascertain. If that's hating the troops, well, I don't know what to say. This goes for the same thing as the critiques of the US. I don't come from it from a position of hatred, but a position of disappointment. The US has the capability to do so much more today than it actually is doing. I don't wish the US to go away or to disappear. No, I wish the US to lead in the way it is capable of leading. To wish that the US exert leadership comensurate with it's ideals isn't an anti-American position, if anything it's a pro-American position. You can try to distort that any way you want, however, the underlying truth of what I've said doesn't change. Quote
bloodyminded Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 Once again, well put. Most certainly, the point of not letting the crazies take all the place is not to be confused with them... It is to make sure that one's message is the one being heard. Yes, you're right. If you make your opinion clear, then it can only get confused with another's through someone's carelessness...or their dishonesty. (Both happen frequently.) On another point... When I say I don't believe someone, it is not because of what somebody else says... It is because I do not believe what THEY say. Period. Absolutely. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Smallc Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 (edited) You're a rabid anit-American bigot. And it shows up in pretty much all of your posts. I don't think I've ever seen this level of bigotry and prejudice in this forum. Absolutely none of what you quoted is anti American. Edited September 12, 2010 by Smallc Quote
CANADIEN Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 You're one giant bad-breathed mouth of anit-Americanism. It's all you post about. You're a rabid anit-American bigot. And it shows up in pretty much all of your posts. I don't think I've ever seen this level of bigotry and prejudice in this forum. With the exception of the last post ... and even then... You are not even closed to the beginning of a hint of a distinct possibility of a proof of anti-American bigotry... Better luck next time. Quote
bloodyminded Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 Absolutely none of what you quoted is anti American. This is my problem with the claim too...and I suppose it goes some way to explaining why "anti-American" gets misused as a label. It's because some people think any criticism of a nation's policies is "anti- [insert country's name]." Oddly, very few countries are deemed sacrosanct in this way. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Machjo Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 Sure, well, they have the option to try. But we can't ask much more than that. Ultimately there's not much one can do. I can criticize Israel's war on Gaza. But if someone, who also criticizes it, starts ranting about the Jews controlling the world through Zionist Hollywood...well, I can take that person on, sure, but I'm not going to expend all my energy on this, just for the sake of avoiding being (dishonestly) lumped in with this person. There are always multiple choices of focus and criticism to be made. None of us can take on everything. Just so I understand correctly... you're not responsible for the crazies in your camp, but Muslims are responsible for the crazies who identify with them. Check. Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 (edited) Not unlike BCs attempt to portray my feeling of a failure in Iraq to me hating US troops. This isn't the case at all. If anything, I feel horribly that these poor kids were sent to Iraq to get killed for no reason anyone can rightly ascertain. If that's hating the troops, well, I don't know what to say. Now we can add patronizing to the list, on top of saying that they were defeated, when clearly they were not. This goes for the same thing as the critiques of the US. I don't come from it from a position of hatred, but a position of disappointment. The US has the capability to do so much more today than it actually is doing. I don't wish the US to go away or to disappear. No, I wish the US to lead in the way it is capable of leading. To wish that the US exert leadership comensurate with it's ideals isn't an anti-American position, if anything it's a pro-American position. This is very contradictory, as the US has lead, but in a way that you find "disappointing". The US has been very consistent in the projection of economic and military power over the past 150 years. Why you would take it upon yourself (in Canada) to invest either way is also most curious. Wishing from afar for your own selfish purposes is fundamentally anti-American....it is American policy, not yours. Edited September 12, 2010 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Smallc Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 Oddly, very few countries are deemed sacrosanct in this way. It is very odd. You're allowed to be anti European (in fact, its encouraged by some), or anti Canadian....but heaven forbid you say anything negative about America. Quote
nicky10013 Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 With the exception of the last post ... and even then... You are not even closed to the beginning of a hint of a distinct possibility of a proof of anti-American bigotry... Better luck next time. Well, the last post I should've made more clear. The non-muslim public that is anti-mosque. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 It is very odd. You're allowed to be anti European (in fact, its encouraged by some), or anti Canadian....but heaven forbid you say anything negative about America. Not at all....anti-American is just fine....just admit to it. Why hide the obvious? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bloodyminded Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 Just so I understand correctly... you're not responsible for the crazies in your camp, but Muslims are responsible for the crazies who identify with them. Check. No, not at all. The minority of Muslims who are crazed fanatics is not in the least the fault of the vast majority who aren't. These Muslims are no more responsible for Muslim fanatics than the Islamaphobes are responsible for Muslim fanatics. I think you might have me confused with another poster. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Machjo Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 No, not at all. The minority of Muslims who are crazed fanatics is not in the least the fault of the vast majority who aren't. These Muslims are no more responsible for Muslim fanatics than the Islamaphobes are responsible for Muslim fanatics. I think you might have me confused with another poster. Maybe I have confused you. Sorry. Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
bloodyminded Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 Maybe I have confused you. Sorry. No worries. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Machjo Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 New York Muslim saves Jews from 'Christian' antisemitism. Bust still, if this guy thinks he's earned the right to be treated as an equal around Ground Zero, think again. The protesters will haunt him at every turn, because after all it's his beliefs that led to the attacks, right? Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
CANADIEN Posted September 12, 2010 Report Posted September 12, 2010 (edited) New York Muslim saves Jews from 'Christian' antisemitism. Bust still, if this guy thinks he's earned the right to be treated as an equal around Ground Zero, think again. The protesters will haunt him at every turn, because after all it's his beliefs that led to the attacks, right? Quite frankly, the "all opponents hae Muslims" rhetoric is getting as tiresome than the "Muslim are terrorist suspects until proven otherwise" school of thought. Edited September 12, 2010 by CANADIEN Quote
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