One more time Gun Registry

[ToadBrother]

I don't vote for either the Tories or Liberals. NDP all the way.

Great for you. I'm not a mindless pacifist nor am I an economic socialist.

[ToadBrother]

What in the post suggested that smallc would automatically come to the tories? I was welcoming smallc to the world of politics beyond the natural governing party.

Which is still fraught with lawlessness, partisan idiocy and a general contempt for our system.

[Alta4ever]

Which is still fraught with lawlessness, partisan idiocy and a general contempt for our system.

Its called politics, and is everything society has come to expect from it.

[ToadBrother]

Its called politics, and is everything society has come to expect from it.

Maybe you have. I have the luxury of not being a braindead partisan hack.

[Alta4ever]

Maybe you have. I have the luxury of not being a braindead partisan hack.

You must not have come to terms with the reality of the crap shoot that is canadian politics.

[Pliny]

Alan Rock. He knows what's best for everyone.

Ignatief and Rock - academic intellectual twins.

All legislation Rock had a hand in should be regarded as an affront to freedom and be repealed.

[Smallc]

You must not have come to terms with the reality of the crap shoot that is canadian politics.

Canadian politics is far better for the most part than that in many other countries. We do have the same problem though - a population that doesn't care and isn't engaged...a population that wants everything from government and blames them constantly.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Smallc

[Pliny]

Canadian politics is far better for the most part than that in many other countries. We do have the same problem though - a population that doesn't care and isn't engaged...a population that wants everything from government and blames them constantly.

We have a bit of Americanism rubbing off on us.

Meanwhile back in France....Life continues as you describe.

[Smallc]

We have a bit of Americanism rubbing off on us.

America is no different...except that Americans claim to want less and tend to blame more.

[Bonam]

a population that wants everything from government and blames them constantly.

You may be on to something. Personally I just want government to leave us all alone. Too bad so few Canadians share this viewpoint.

[Muddy]

You may be on to something. Personally I just want government to leave us all alone. Too bad so few Canadians share this viewpoint.

[/quote

I have always thought that government should limit itself,but unfortunately it self perpetuates itself by promising to give the people something that they previously could aquire for themselves just to gain votes.Of course they are the same people who cry about taxes when they have to pay the piper for what they did not need in the first place. No group of swival servants are as efficient as the private sector employees.

Before the gun registry I did not fear my rifle or gun owning neighbours and I do not fear them now. What did the registry thats has cost in the billions now, given us. Safer streets? If so ,where?

[nicky10013]

You may be on to something. Personally I just want government to leave us all alone. Too bad so few Canadians share this viewpoint.

[/quote

I have always thought that government should limit itself,but unfortunately it self perpetuates itself by promising to give the people something that they previously could aquire for themselves just to gain votes.Of course they are the same people who cry about taxes when they have to pay the piper for what they did not need in the first place. No group of swival servants are as efficient as the private sector employees.

Before the gun registry I did not fear my rifle or gun owning neighbours and I do not fear them now. What did the registry thats has cost in the billions now, given us. Safer streets? If so ,where?

First of all, government enteriprise can be just efficient if not more so than private business. That's something that's always been touted by Conservatives but never have been proved. My uncle is the same way. When given the stats that US Medicare has administration costs to the tune of 30x less than private insurance companies, he just shook his head and said it can't possibly be true.

Secondly, though I don't claim to know if the registry itself will work or not, but I fail to understand why people wouldn't want to make it as difficult as possible to obtain fire arms. Can anyone give me a reason why it should be made easier?

Edited April 20, 2010 by nicky10013

[Topaz]

Why not take it out of the hands of the Feds and put into the hands of the provinces? Each province could have the question as part of their election day schedule. Let the voters of each province make the decision!

[Argus]

Sad. I wonder what his motivations for protecting this monstrosity really are.

There are still a sizeable number of Canadians who believe the gun registry = gun control. They are not really aware of how the systems work, and don't know that by the time you can actually get a gun to register you have to have gone through all the checks of getting a licence first. These are mostly urban people who have never and will never own a gun. These are the people the Liberals have been playing to for some time now on this issue.

I've said it before, the gun registry was never intended to be more than a placebo to placate Canadians screaming about gun violence - in lieu of actually doing something about it. Did they think it was going to cost nearly $2 billion? No. If they had they'd never have brought it out. but once it was out it became necessary to defend it. And the Liberals have fought so hard over the years to defend it against the Tories that they feel a sense of brand ownership - and still feel it's a useful tool in branding the Tories as "cowboys from out west" to its Toronto voters.

[waldo]

Secondly, though I don't claim to know if the registry itself will work or not, but I fail to understand why people wouldn't want to make it as difficult as possible to obtain fire arms. Can anyone give me a reason why it should be made easier?

of course... the gun registry is supported by the Canadian Police Association, the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, and the Canadian Association of Police Boards. Apparently value add! In 2009, the gun registry was consulted by police 11,000 times per day.

You are the frontline of our system of justice, and we’re committed to giving you the tools you need to do your job. That’s why the Liberal Party proudly stands with Canadian families and Canadian police officers for effective gun control.

It would be wrong to ignore the frustration and legitimate criticisms that we have heard about the gun registry, particularly from rural Canada. That’s why, today, we’re announcing what a Liberal government would do to make the gun registry more effective, and to respond to these concerns.

Canadians want gun control that works, and that treats gun owners fairly. But we won’t abandon gun control. Not when rifles and shotguns are responsible for half the police officers killed in the line of duty in the last few years. Not when the gun registry is a vital tool that law enforcement uses every single day.

Let me be perfectly clear: the Liberal Party opposes the Conservative government’s effort to scrap the gun registry altogether and we will vote against the Hoeppner bill at third reading in the House of Commons. Instead, we’re proposing sensible changes that address the legitimate concerns of our rural caucus, while upholding the integrity of the gun registry.

Police across Canada are taking the lead on crime prevention, and finding new ways to keep our communities safe. We have supported tougher sentences, when they are appropriate. But we also support giving police the tools they need to prevent crime.

Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff announced that a Liberal government would implement the following improvements to the long-gun registry:

• First-time failures to register firearms would be treated as a simple, non-criminal, ticketing offence, instead of a criminal offence as they are currently;

• Fees for new licenses, renewals and upgrades would be permanently eliminated; and

• The registration process – especially the forms – would be streamlined to make registration as easy as possible.

[Argus]

of course... the gun registry is supported by the Canadian Police Association, the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, and the Canadian Association of Police Boards. Apparently value add! In 2009, the gun registry was consulted by police 11,000 times per day.

The software us set up so that any time a cop consults the NPIC - the national police information centre - to check a record on an individual it automatically scans the gun registry and kicks back anything it finds there too. In most cases the cop could care less, since these are routine scans during traffic stops and the like.

Most police forces are responding to the very political desires of their masters, and most municipal governments are pretty left of centre. It ill behooves a chief to oppose something like the gun registry and irriate his local masters who support it because, by and large, they hate guns of any sort. But most actual police officers could care less about the registry, despite what the more political groups say.

[ToadBrother]

You must not have come to terms with the reality of the crap shoot that is canadian politics.

I recognized it long ago. What makes me curious is why you still slavishly ape the party line.

[M.Dancer]

In 2009, the gun registry was consulted by police 11,000 times per day.

I find that increadibly hard to believe.

Given that there are only 67,000 cops in Canada I find it hard to swallow undigested that over 15% of them are making registry searches each and every day...

[Alta4ever]

I recognized it long ago. What makes me curious is why you still slavishly ape the party line.

I don't, but I am an idealogical small c conservative, which on many issues puts me behind the CPC since it is the closest thing to conservatism in this country.

[Moonbox]

I couldn't support the Liberals under Dion, just like I can't support the NDP under Layton. It also seems that I can't vote for the Liberals under Ignatieff. That leaves me with the option that I hate least.

I'm so happy you said that last part Smallc. Cynicism is a very good quality to have at the polls.

[waldo]

Most police forces are responding to the very political desires of their masters, and most municipal governments are pretty left of centre. It ill behooves a chief to oppose something like the gun registry and irriate his local masters who support it because, by and large, they hate guns of any sort. But most actual police officers could care less about the registry, despite what the more political groups say.

yes, we've heard this from you before... by the way, would you classify the, "most police forces" and "most municipal governments" you refer to as being urban, or rural based? Other than an occasional quote reference appearing on an anti-gun registry source, I'm not aware of any significant survey/polling done of policeman on local, provincial or federal levels... if you have any citations to support your assertion that, "most actual police officers could care less about the gun registry", it would be helpful to receive them.

particularly in the face of suggested improvements (those just outlined by Ignatieff) what would be your remaining concern(s) with the gun registry?

[Handsome Rob]

You may be on to something. Personally I just want government to leave us all alone. Too bad so few Canadians share this viewpoint.

I'm with you!

I want them to govern, legislate laws, and provide essential services (Police/Fire/Health/Infrastructure/etc).

That's it.

[Handsome Rob]

Secondly, though I don't claim to know if the registry itself will work or not, but I fail to understand why people wouldn't want to make it as difficult as possible to obtain fire arms. Can anyone give me a reason why it should be made easier?

The registry does not in any way make it more difficult to acquire a firearm. The checks & balances you refer to are present in the Possession & Acquisition License.

[Argus]

yes, we've heard this from you before... by the way, would you classify the, "most police forces" and "most municipal governments" you refer to as being urban, or rural based? Other than an occasional quote reference appearing on an anti-gun registry source, I'm not aware of any significant survey/polling done of policeman on local, provincial or federal levels... if you have any citations to support your assertion that, "most actual police officers could care less about the gun registry", it would be helpful to receive them.

particularly in the face of suggested improvements (those just outlined by Ignatieff) what would be your remaining concern(s) with the gun registry?

Here's One

[Pliny]

ame='Muddy' date='20 April 2010 - 08:20 AM' timestamp='1271764353' post='532946']

First of all, government enteriprise can be just efficient if not more so than private business. That's something that's always been touted by Conservatives but never have been proved. My uncle is the same way. When given the stats that US Medicare has administration costs to the tune of 30x less than private insurance companies, he just shook his head and said it can't possibly be true.

And it isn't true.

Imagine, for a moment, that Fred and Jane each have a credit card from a different bank. Fred charges $5,000 a month, and Jane charges $1,000 a month. Suppose it costs each bank $5 to produce and send a plastic credit card when the account is opened. That $5 "administrative cost" is a much lower percentage of Fred's monthly charges than it is of Jane's, but that does not mean Fred's bank is more efficient. It is purely a mathematical artifact of Fred's charging pattern, and it would be silly to compare the efficiency of bank operations on that basis. Yet that is how many analysts compare Medicare with private insurance.

My link

In looking at most of the studies I find that their comparisons are measured as stated here, as a percentage of costs.

I know it is nice to think of the government as efficient but economic laws show it is not possible for government to be efficient except perhaps on a very selective and limited basis. In a broad, general perspective it is not economically possible for it to be more efficient.

Secondly, though I don't claim to know if the registry itself will work or not, but I fail to understand why people wouldn't want to make it as difficult as possible to obtain fire arms. Can anyone give me a reason why it should be made easier?

Most people today don't care to own firearms and don't find it necessary which makes it easier for government to pass laws increasing the degree of difficulty regarding their acquisition.

The registry is very costly. It was originally supposed to cost 128 million and ran into the billions.

Although one lives his life comfortably in a democracy of relative stability with minimal threats to person and property and the apparency of security the scene is never static. Quick acquisition may be necessary.

The long gun registry is a particular sore point because rural citizens often find they need protection from wildlife and the constraints of regulation are far too stringent.

I will say, I believe some people should never be allowed to own a gun. Mostly those taking drugs for psychiatric reasons or those addicted to street drugs.