Israel continues to spit in the face of international law

[Gabriel]

Descibe in detail when Jerusalem was made Palestinian territory.

Exactly. Occupied FROM whom, exactly? In reality, East Jerusalem is in semi-limbo, as Jordan relinquished its claims to it after it was captured by Israel. In all seriousness, though, these minor details mean nothing to me. All of Jerusalem belongs to Israel unless Israel decides to put it up for negotiation.

[Gabriel]

The reference to Micronesia is naomiglover's attempt at parroting Finkelstein's typical silliness, in case any of you didn't know. I love all these appeals to "international law", and how the ICJ is the "highest court in the world". What a joke, rooted in complete ignorance or the law and of politics.

[naomiglover]

The reference to Micronesia is naomiglover's attempt at parroting Finkelstein's typical silliness, in case any of you didn't know. I love all these appeals to "international law", and how the ICJ is the "highest court in the world". What a joke, rooted in complete ignorance or the law and of politics.

Your contempt for the UN is puzzling since it was the UN and international law that allowed Israel to exist. How is the ICJ rooted in complete ignorance? More specifically, what was it about the ICJ ruling in 2004 which concluded the barrier was illegal and specifically called East Jerusalem and the West Bank occupied territories?

Edited March 24, 2010 by naomiglover

[Bonam]

Gotta love when obsessed anti-Israeli posters like dub (you guys remember him?) get banned, make a new account and pretend to be a Jew, with a Jewish name no less. Too bad the arguments and style of writing are exactly the same.

[Gabriel]

Your contempt for the UN is puzzling since it was the UN and international law that allowed Israel to exist. How is the ICJ rooted in complete ignorance? More specifically, what was it about the ICJ ruling in 2004 which concluded the barrier was illegal and specifically called East Jerusalem and the West Bank occupied territories?

There's much more to the establishment of Israel than the UN. Israel's independence, and subsequent border changes occured DESPITE the UN. The suggestion that somehow the UN was the primary instrument behind the establishment of Israel is absurd, and displays supreme ignorance.

You misread my post, I'm mocking your constant references to international law and description of the ICJ as the "highest court in the world" (it is hardly the highest court in the world). Such a statement displays, again, your ignorance of the philosophy of law and politics.

You still haven't addressed the simple question - whose land is being occupied in East Jerusalem? If you want to obsess over legalities, start with that one.

[DogOnPorch]

Gotta love when obsessed anti-Israeli posters like dub (you guys remember him?) get banned, make a new account and pretend to be a Jew, with a Jewish name no less. Too bad the arguments and style of writing are exactly the same.

I do remember dub. But I don't think naiomi is dub. Cut from the same cloth, though...like dozens of others before. Monkeyman...kuzadd...buffycat...etc. Who knows though? They wear the internet burqa...lol. Oddly, the majority of these posters supporting 'radical' Islam are women.

[DogOnPorch]

Exactly. Occupied FROM whom, exactly? In reality, East Jerusalem is in semi-limbo, as Jordan relinquished its claims to it after it was captured by Israel. In all seriousness, though, these minor details mean nothing to me. All of Jerusalem belongs to Israel unless Israel decides to put it up for negotiation.

Pretty much. As well, the Arab approach to the problem (riot...throw rocks and rockets...kidnap individuals...etc) doesn't work at all...but they keep-a-tryin'.

[GostHacked]

Exactly. Occupied FROM whom, exactly? In reality, East Jerusalem is in semi-limbo, as Jordan relinquished its claims to it after it was captured by Israel. In all seriousness, though, these minor details mean nothing to me. All of Jerusalem belongs to Israel unless Israel decides to put it up for negotiation.

Those 'minor' details seem to have major impact as to what is going on there.

[DogOnPorch]

Those 'minor' details seem to have major impact as to what is going on there.

As mentioned, it seems the riots are actually over the reconstruction of Hurva Synagogue in the Jewish Quarter of the Old City which was destroyed by the Arabs after the 1948 War. Hamas in particular has been calling the reconstruction a direct threat to al-Aqsa mosque (the Israelis 'plan to destroy it', apparently). The renovation of the old abandoned Shepherd Hotel into housing is more a talking point between the US and Israel. Bought and paid for, apparently...not 'stolen' as so often claimed. But it indeed has added to the chorus of typical rage from the anti-Israeli crowd.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/world/middleeast/16jerusalem.html

Edited March 24, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[naomiglover]

There's much more to the establishment of Israel than the UN. Israel's independence, and subsequent border changes occured DESPITE the UN. The suggestion that somehow the UN was the primary instrument behind the establishment of Israel is absurd, and displays supreme ignorance.

You misread my post, I'm mocking your constant references to international law and description of the ICJ as the "highest court in the world" (it is hardly the highest court in the world). Such a statement displays, again, your ignorance of the philosophy of law and politics.

You still haven't addressed the simple question - whose land is being occupied in East Jerusalem? If you want to obsess over legalities, start with that one.

You can keep repeating the word 'ignorance', but it's not going to win you any points.

The fact is that East Jerusalem does not belong to Israel. The settlement activities are illegal. The U.S., the EU and the rest of the world agrees with this.

You need to deal and accept this fact before we can move onto other things.

[M.Dancer]

The U.S....., agrees with this.

.

Forgetting the Israeli Embassy act, a law passed by the house and the senate?

[naomiglover]

Forgetting the Israeli Embassy act, a law passed by the house and the senate?

No one cares for the Jerusalem Embassy act. This is why the U.S. embassy was never moved to Jerusalem and it was never implemented. The heavily AIPAC lobbied house and senate has no jurisidction over U.S. foreign policy matters.

Good try though, Dancer.

[Gabriel]

Those 'minor' details seem to have major impact as to what is going on there.

See, this is where you're wrong. I think one of the biggest misconceptions of this conflict is the idea that East Jerusalem (and some other disputed areas) are primary drivers of the conflict. More generally, the conflict isn't nearly as territorial as people claim it is - it is ideological. When you see what types of messages Palestinians are exposed to from the cradle to the grave (as well as many other Arabs and Muslims) regarding Israel, Jews, Zionism, the USA, and other big concepts, you start to get an idea of why they behave the way they behave. This isn't to say that Palestinians don't have legitimate grievances, but to obsess over Israeli apartment developments in a Jewish neighbourhood in East Jerusalem misses the bigger drivers of this conflict from the Palestinian perspective.

Lastly, my point above is hardly original. It's been said for years by those who've paid attention to the components of Palestinian and Arab culture that contributes to many terrible ideas - hatred of Jews and Israelis and many others (dehuminization of the enemy), rejection of Israel's legitimacy, praising violence and death, teaching falsehood about history akin to libels about Jews and others, etc, etc, etc....

In the broader context, I don't think EJ is nearly as big of a deal as people make it out to be when examining the primary drivers for Palestinian angst.

[Gabriel]

You can keep repeating the word 'ignorance', but it's not going to win you any points.

The fact is that East Jerusalem does not belong to Israel. The settlement activities are illegal. The U.S., the EU and the rest of the world agrees with this.

You need to deal and accept this fact before we can move onto other things.

I'm not disputing that prominent countries and organizations have official positions that describe EJ as "occupied". What I'm disputing is the legitimacy of those claims. You still haven't answered the question - whose land is being occupied in EJ? As I said, Jordan relinquished control of EJ after it was captured by Israel in the six-day war. So is EJ occupied from the potential Palestinian state that has yet to come into being? DO you not see the grounds for debate, here?

Lastly, it's ironic that you appeal to a country like the USA as an authority, given that the USA's semi-official position is that EJ is occupied, considering that the USA holds official and semi-official positions that run contrary to many of your desires/arguments regarding this conflict. I guess you cherry-pick what you like from this country or that organization. You often do this - you appeal to some "authority" to support your position, without simply explaining why something should be or shouldn't be. "International law" this and "the EU" that summarizes much of the support for your "arguments".

[Guest American Woman]

I do remember dub. But I don't think naiomi is dub. Cut from the same cloth, though...like dozens of others before. Monkeyman...kuzadd...buffycat...etc. Who knows though? They wear the internet burqa...lol. Oddly, the majority of these posters supporting 'radical' Islam are women.

Claim to be women, might be more accurate, just as claim to be Jewish is likely the way of it, too. But oddly enough, a lot of Muslim women support/accept women's place in Islamic societies. It's difficult to understand.

[naomiglover]

I'm not disputing that prominent countries and organizations have official positions that describe EJ as "occupied". What I'm disputing is the legitimacy of those claims. You still haven't answered the question - whose land is being occupied in EJ? As I said, Jordan relinquished control of EJ after it was captured by Israel in the six-day war. So is EJ occupied from the potential Palestinian state that has yet to come into being? DO you not see the grounds for debate, here?

Lastly, it's ironic that you appeal to a country like the USA as an authority, given that the USA's semi-official position is that EJ is occupied, considering that the USA holds official and semi-official positions that run contrary to many of your desires/arguments regarding this conflict. I guess you cherry-pick what you like from this country or that organization. You often do this - you appeal to some "authority" to support your position, without simply explaining why something should be or shouldn't be. "International law" this and "the EU" that summarizes much of the support for your "arguments".

I am showing you how East Jerusalem is considered occupied territories by the world. It doesn't get any simpler. There is no room for discussion in regards to its legality because the status of it is already well-defined and in print. I don't want to waste my time discussing a point that does not exist. Israel is breaking international law by continuing to build up in the occupied territories, which includes East Jerusalem. This is supported by Israel's closest allies like U.S., U.K. and most recently, Canada.

[M.Dancer]

I am showing you how East Jerusalem is considered occupied territories by the world.

The world disagrees with you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_separatum

[

[Gabriel]

I am showing you how East Jerusalem is considered occupied territories by the world. It doesn't get any simpler. There is no room for discussion in regards to its legality because the status of it is already well-defined and in print. I don't want to waste my time discussing a point that does not exist. Israel is breaking international law by continuing to build up in the occupied territories, which includes East Jerusalem. This is supported by Israel's closest allies like U.S., U.K. and most recently, Canada.

I really think this will be my last post in response to you, ever. You're clearly ignoring a valid point that's been raised by myself and DogOnPorch - the question being: from whom is EJ being occupied? From a non-existent country known as Palestine? In order to be occupied, land must be occupied FROM a state, and Jordan relinquished its claim to EJ. This is a legitimate legal question. Anyways....

[xul]

It's difficult to understand.

In somewhere of the world, there still are some people lives in matriarchal society. If a female member of these primitive tribes come to this forum, she will also wonder how on earth these civilized women could put up with not having a female president over 200 years.......

[naomiglover]

I really think this will be my last post in response to you, ever. You're clearly ignoring a valid point that's been raised by myself and DogOnPorch - the question being: from whom is EJ being occupied?

From the Palestinians. Duh?

[M.Dancer]

From the Palestinians. Duh?

ERRR Wrong..it is the UN.

Remember one thing, prior to the ethnic cleansing of jews in 48-9...Jerusalem and East Jerusalem had a majority jewish population....and even then, the Vatican has a better claim on it than the Arabs.

[Bonam]

I do remember dub. But I don't think naiomi is dub. Cut from the same cloth, though...like dozens of others before. Monkeyman...kuzadd...buffycat...etc. Who knows though? They wear the internet burqa...lol. Oddly, the majority of these posters supporting 'radical' Islam are women.

Nah kuzadd and buffycat and such all had distinct writing styles and arguments. On the other hand, the writings of dub and naomiglover are identical. Also, naomiglover appeared within days of dub disappearing.

[myata]

The developments only confirm that was suspected for quite a long while - i.e that seeking genuine deescalation of tensions and approaches to stable lasting isn't really in the plans of Isreal's governments. And it narrows the wiggle room of Israel's "friends" as honest and credible mediators of "peace" to the proverbial needle point, where the continuous practical and material support for Israel's government acts (as I already mentioned, talk is cheap these days) would translate into indirect complicity in its aggressive and provocative policies in the occupied territories.

I think that countries and governments that are genuinly committed to promoting and encouraging peace in the area should come out with strong practical measures enforcing the common sense guidelines to the eventual settlement. Like formally recognising East Jerusalem as the capital of the future Palestinian state.

Those whose committment is only to double talk and washing friend and ally's hand behind the back, could continue their word games, everybody should already know very well the worth and net impact of these policies.

[Guest American Woman]

In somewhere of the world, there still are some people lives in matriarchal society. If a female member of these primitive tribes come to this forum, she will also wonder how on earth these civilized women could put up with not having a female president over 200 years.......

There's no law against a woman being president; women aren't barred from running or winning. So your example doesn't fly. Furthermore, there's a huge difference between not having a woman leader and women's rights being almost completely repressed by law, too often to the point of violence against women being accepted and deemed justified.

How you could compare women's place in society in these Islamic nations to not having a woman president is rather mind boggling.

[naomiglover]

The fact remains that the annexation of East Jerusalem by Israel is not internationally reocognized. The International Court of Justice has ruled that the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem are all Occupied Palestinian Territory. It's a simple fact that cannot be disputed.

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?p1=3&p2=4&k=5a&PHPSESSID=60e2f3e3d732bbe27c8f55888a311c8f&case=131&code=mwp&p3=4