Israel continues to spit in the face of international law

[DogOnPorch]

More circle BS from you.

You can pretend Jordan didn't lay claim to it after taking it by force of arms...then used it to attack Israel...then lost it in the fighting...all you wish.

[bloodyminded]

More circle BS from you.

You can pretend Jordan didn't lay claim to it after taking it by force of arms...then used it to attack Israel...then lost it in the fighting...all you wish.

I'm not pretending anything; I'm not even debating you on any of this, all of which is irrelevant to our debate.

Are you even aware that this is all beside the point?

[DogOnPorch]

Are you even aware that this is all beside the point?

Your problem amoungst many is that if someone says the sky is blue, you pipe-up and say that's incorrect...it's actually sky-blue.

Slime...pure slime.

[bloodyminded]

Your problem amoungst many is that if someone says the sky is blue, you pipe-up and say that's incorrect...it's actually sky-blue.

Slime...pure slime.

You've been exposed as a liar. Your fault. Deal with it.

[DogOnPorch]

You've been exposed as a liar. Your fault. Deal with it.

A liar now? Too funny.

Do you do a 'blue' show @ midnight?

[bloodyminded]

A liar now? Too funny.

I'm not convinced it's just "now."

But yes, certainly. You said that the West Bank belonged to Israel; then you denied saying it.

This was already proven, using your own words.

And your continual denial of it is another lie.

That's why you call me "slime." You don't like being outed as an intellectual coward.

[GostHacked]

Your interpretation is just silly. The order simply states that people that are in the area illegally can be removed. Palestinians that have been living there are considered to have a permit. Almost any nation in the world has laws under which it can deport people who are present unlawfully. Illegal immigrants in Canada, in the US, etc, can all be deported. The purpose of the law is for Israel to be able to remove individuals who unlawfully come into the West Bank from other nations (Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc). The only thing that is happening is a minor modification in wording from the prior existing law.

Who makes the decision that they are legal or illegal? Does Palestine have that authority to remove illegals? Like from the Israeli settlements in the West Bank? People living there long term considered to have a permit but do not have a permit can be removed, that will happen, or has already happened.

My interpretation stands, it is an occupation. Israel calls all the shots here.

[DogOnPorch]

I'm not convinced it's just "now."

But yes, certainly. You said that the West Bank belonged to Israel; then you denied saying it.

This was already proven, using your own words.

And your continual denial of it is another lie.

That's why you call me "slime." You don't like being outed as an intellectual coward.

My words were 'holding the bag'. I never said anyone 'owned' anything. You're the liar. Had Nasser and crew not played toy soldiers with Isreal in '67, there'd be no problem. Jordan would still occupy the WB and Palestinians would be a non-issue. A non-existent non-issue.

[bloodyminded]

My words were 'holding the bag'. I never said anyone 'owned' anything. You're the liar. Had Nasser and crew not played toy soldiers with Isreal in '67, there'd be no problem. Jordan would still occupy the WB and Palestinians would be a non-issue. A non-existent non-issue.

No, you said both. "Holding the bag" does not preclude "belong to," a point on which you insisted, in direct response to another poster:

Since when does Westbank belong to Israel? Please Enlighten Us.

Since 1967 after the Arabs failed to defeat Israel in the 6 Day War. Jordan had annexed the place in 1949 only giving-up claim in 1988. By default, Israel was left holding the bag.

But then, you already know this. Deflect all you like, it doesn't change the truth.

[DogOnPorch]

That's right...the sky is sky blue...not blue.

Next up: bloodyminded explains how Koenigsberg is still actually in Germany.

[bloodyminded]

That's right...the sky is sky blue...not blue.

Next up: bloodyminded explains how Koenigsberg is still actually in Germany.

You have determined that this discussion is not to your liking. Fair enough.

[DogOnPorch]

You have determined that this discussion is not to your liking. Fair enough.

I think I'll determin that for myself, slime-ball.

[bloodyminded]

I think I'll determin that for myself, slime-ball.

You did.

[DogOnPorch]

You did.

You did what?

[bloodyminded]

You did what?

Owned you.

[jbg]

You're trying to distract from the very argument that you began.

First, you were asked "since when does the West Bank belong to Israel?"

Then, you answered: "since" the 1967 war...meaning, by your formula, that the West Bank does belong to Israel. That is the explicit meaning of your response.

Then, I pointed out that the West Bank does not "belong" to Israel...and that Israel itself does not claim that it does.********************You're just blowing smoke because you've been exposed as either a liar, or a very confused person.

Blah, blah, blah....

The serious part of my response goes to the very essence of these kinds of questions. Israel is put under the microscope. Frankly, the West puts itself under the microscope. The other people act with unrestrained savagery and we condemn ourselves for one false step.

Why?

[DogOnPorch]

Blah, blah, blah....

The serious part of my response goes to the very essence of these kinds of questions. Israel is put under the microscope. Frankly, the West puts itself under the microscope. The other people act with unrestrained savagery and we condemn ourselves for one false step.

Why?

Guilty-minded hippy parents perhaps?

[Bonam]

My interpretation stands, it is an occupation. Israel calls all the shots here.

Of course, Israel does call (some of) the shots in the area. Until the Palestinians can man up and make their own decent government capable of exerting sovereignty, Israel is forced to take on this role to ensure its own security. So long as this is the case, Israel is the only government with the authority to handle immigration into the West Bank and Gaza. Illegals in these areas can be deported, just as the sovereign power controlling any other region in the world can deport illegals from that region. If/when the two-state solution is ever implemented, that authority will be transferred to whatever government the people of the West Bank set up, but that has not yet happened.

[Bonam]

Blah, blah, blah....

The serious part of my response goes to the very essence of these kinds of questions. Israel is put under the microscope. Frankly, the West puts itself under the microscope. The other people act with unrestrained savagery and we condemn ourselves for one false step.

Why?

If the West is put under a microscope, Israel must be under a whole array of scanning-tunneling microscopes. The extent to which Israel is scrutinized eclipses the scrutiny any other nation gets. Like some exotic lab specimen, every slightest move it makes is analyzed, commented on, and debated ad nauseum.

The West holding itself to higher standards is one thing. While this is frequently taken too far, the desire to hold one's own society to a higher standard is understandable. If the situation allows, keeping your hands clean and retaining the moral high ground is nice.

But the condemnation of Israel is something entirely different. It is something of an obsession with many on the left wing of the political spectrum, from unions and academics whose jobs and roles have nothing to do with politics taking it on themselves to boycott Israel, to universities supporting blatantly antisemitic events such as IAW, to those who do anything to accommodate and appease Islamism in the name of tolerance or multiculturalism. It is not based on a desire to hold one's society to a higher standard, but rather based on a desire to see a certain society (Israel) be destroyed.

[bloodyminded]

Blah, blah, blah....

Right back at you.

DogOnPorch--the most dishonest little Bully on this site, in my view--made a factually inaccurate claim. I called him on it. He threw a tantrum.

The discussion between us (such as it was) had nothing whatsoever to do with criticism of Israel, or of anyone else.

You'd know that if you'd read it. Which you did not.

The serious part of my response goes to the very essence of these kinds of questions. Israel is put under the microscope. Frankly, the West puts itself under the microscope. The other people act with unrestrained savagery and we condemn ourselves for one false step.

Why?

I want to make three points to this reply:

1. I agree with you that Israel receives an icnredible amount of criticism, that appears often to be disproportional.

(Further, I have always agreed with this, and stated it.)

2. As for criticism of "us," menaing the West in general...that's a wholly different matter.

I would think it's an elementary truism that the proper moral stance is to concentrate more criticism upon one's own country and her allies than upon official enemies.

3. And we do, in fact, spend a lot more time criticizing others than we criticize ourselves, at least in the realm of international politics (which is what we are talking about here, after all). In other wordfs, I don't think we are self-critical enough.

[DogOnPorch]

DogOnPorch--the most dishonest little Bully on this site, in my view--made a factually inaccurate claim. I called him on it. He threw a tantrum.

Right, slime-wad. The 6 Day War never happened.

Tantrum?

[bloodyminded]

Right, slime-wad. The 6 Day War never happened.

If you're insisting that you have no clue what you're talking about, everybody agrees.

Tantrum?

As always. That's what you do.

Edited May 2, 2010 by bloodyminded

[DogOnPorch]

If you're insisting that you have no clue what you're talking about, everybody agrees.

I doubt anyone cares what you think. But, you do think rather highly of yourself. Thus, you believe like some on every board, that hundreds hang on your every written word. That you use the term 'everybody agrees' shows that you have a highly narcissistic character.

That you nit-pick the results of the Six Day War...an event you weren't alive for...also shows a rather tiresome side of you that must drive your wife...if you have one...crazy. I could go through it step by step...but why bother?

To sum-up. You're a boor in love with the smell of your own crap. Sniff away.

Edited May 2, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[Rue]

HAS not one notice that the Israels have this old and antiquated religous idea that racism is just fine as long as it is there race in dominance?

No and I am glad you were ignored when you asked this question.

Your comment simply reflects your preconceived view based on an antiquated myth that is false and its a classic example of how alleged criticism of Israeli policy is fused with a myth about jewish religion which then negatively stereotupes not just all Israelis but necessarily all Jews as racists.

I have lost track how many times this anti-semitic canard has been repeated and quite frankly Oleg I expected more from you.

In Judaism there is a story which refers to a covenant Jews enter into with God in which God tells them they must honour God through a collective identity. This relationship or covenant, or in fact promise God holds the Jews to in the story is specific to Jews.

The fact it is specific to Jews and does not apply to others is what Jews feel distinguishes them from non Jews. It is a concept where Jews feel God selected them for a promise he did not impose on non Jews.

Nowhere in this concept does it state this make Jews superior Oleg. That is an anti-semitic myth. Judaism does not and has never stated Jews are better than anyone else. You have taken the word "chosen" which is a rough translation from Hebrew and assume it signifies the Jews as being defined as superior people by God. That is absolute nonsense. Sheer and utter nonsense.

Chosen in fact means designated or assigned or told by God or ordered or by God.

In fact there are numerous passages in the Old Testament and Talmud and many other essays by Rabbiahs and Jewish scholars which teach that Jews are to respect all other mono-theistic religions and to

treat non Jews with respect and kindness as a central precept of being a Jew.

In fact Judaism does not define Christians and Muslims as inferiors. In fact Christianity defines Jews as infidel going to hell if they do not convert to Christianity. In fact Islam defines Jews as infidels going to hell for not following the words of Muhammed.

In fact this is why Christians convert and Muslims convert and Jews do not.

In the original early days this myth was probably written as an allegory to encourage Jews to develop a collective identity if they were to survive in a world of feuding tribes, no more, no less.

For you to twist that, and suggest it means something it does not and then repeat the old anti-semitic canard that Zionism is racism and Israel is racist because the creation of Israel is based on the precept that Jews are superior and don't want other people in their state is bull.

Zionism as it was originally created was not religious at all. In fact it was drafted by agnostics and atheists who defined their Judaism as a political collective identity based on not just their religion but ethnicity and culture. It defined the collective Jewish identity as an identifiable people seeking the right to human sufferage.

Religious Zionism as expressed by extremist settlers on the West Bank which claims Judea and Somaria as all belonging exclusively to Jews and those religious Zionists of this group of Israelis who embrace anti-Arab or anti-Palestinian policies and wish to live only with Jews are not mainstream Israelis, not mainstream Jews, and not mainstream Zionists.

They are no more indicative of Zionists, Israelis or Jews, then terrorists who profess to be Islam are indicative of the thoughts and beliefs of all Muslims.

They are no more indicative of Zionists then religious Christian Zionists.

Religious Zionists are a segment or sub-group of Zionists and a minority sub-group.

Zionism as enshrined in the Israeli state government defines Arabic as an official language of Israel, allows Muslim Israelis to elect members to the government that can openly call for the end of Israel,

enshrines and protects the right for Muslims and Christians to have their own religious courts to deal

with religious and family law issues-affords the same property rights to non Jewish citizens as it does

Jewish ones. In fact it does so precisely because the Zionist ideology did not define Arabs/Muslims or Christian citizens in the Jewish state as inferior.

You mistake the Jewish state for Sharia Law Muslim states which create dhimmitude and define non Muslims as inferior citizens unable to own land or testify on their own behalf in court because they are considered unable to tell the truth and therefore take an oath.

You mistake the Jewish state with Christian ones that excluded Jews from owning land and entrenched in

these countries constitutions laws that discriminated and held anyone who was non Christian as being inferior.

The Israeli state has its issues. It has questionable policies and its share of ignorant hateful people but for you to suggest Judaism or Zionism or Israel is racist is a crock of dung.

If Israel was racist it would not have taken in Felashie Jews. Yes there is friction between the Orthodox Rabbinical courts which do not recognize people as being Jews unless they subscribe to Orthodox Judaism but the actual state would allow me a non Orthodox Jew the same right of return it allows Felashie Jews or Jews from across the world. Our skin colour or race is not the issue and never was.

There is friction between say Russian Jews and African and Arabic Jews but that is cultural friction not skin colour friction. The fact is Jews come from every race and if you live in Israel long enough you

become brown from the sun even if you are a caucasian.

[Rue]

Because expanding the illegal settlements and not following international law is about security?

You don't make sense.

Its called rhetoric. You engage in it so does he. He returns what you give. Your language calls for his language.

The words you use invite certain words in response.

The facts are not black and white. They never were. There is no black and white, good v. evil, right v. wrong as you and others depict the equation on the West Bank as.

In fact the West Bank was never part of any sovereign state. No amount of historic revisionism can change that fact or do what you want it to do, create in international law a new doctrine that says a land that was never part of a sovereign nation is the exclusive land of only one kind of people.

Not even Israel when it founded a Jewish state excluded non Jews. Palestinians do seek this again. I say again, because people like you ignore history.

You can of course onveniently ignore that 78% of Palestine was illegally and unilaterally seized by the British to create TransJordan contrary to international law and the TransJordanian state was created as a Palestinian state. That Palestinian state said so in its constitution. It defined Jordan as a Palestinian state which is still on its coat of arms.

You can ignore the fact is and remains to this day, that under Jordanian law, no Jew is allowed citizenship and if you sell land to a Jew-you face capital punishment. This is why there are NO Jews living in Jordan.

You can ignore that Jordan granted a law of return granting anyone who was MUSLIM and identified themselves as a Palestinian the automatic right to obtain citizenship in Jordan.

The fact is the nation proposed for Palestinians on the West Bank also calls for a Muslim state that would expel all Jews.

You can of course depict Israel as the bad guy and the ethnic cleanser but you ignore the fact that the Arab League of Nations expelled its one million Jews forcing 90% of them to flee to Israel after all their belongings were stolen. You can ignore under Sharia law in Muslim states of the Middle East, it continues that Jews can not own land, testify in court because they are considered unable to tell the truth and are required to hire a Muslim to represent them when doing business with another Muslim, etc.

You can ignore that Israel as part of its constitution guarantees the right to non Jewish citizens the same right to own land in Israel, vote for elected representatives, and to have its own religious and family law courts-in otherwords all the rights no Jews are allowed in

Sharia law nations or were allowed in Christian nations.

You can also forget that in Israel, non Jews live in the highest standard of living in any country of the Middle East and this is why so many Muslim Israelis will not leave the

country. By the way you can also ignore how Israel took in Muslim refugees

from the Yugoslav civil war.

So now we have the West Bank. May I suggest, from what I have read from you in past posts that you look at it ignoring 78% of Palestine was already turned into a non Jewish Palestinian state. You now want to take that land as well and create a second Palestinian state.

I myself feel a second Palestinian State is required for a possible peace

settlement.

Israel says fine just don't use it as a zone to attack Israel with terrorists. You want a state, recognize us and our right to live free of terrorism.

What happens-Hamas says never and they will not stop until all of Israel and Jordan as well as the West Bank is turned into a Sharia Law Muslim theocracy. They have stated this time and time again as well as the policy that it is justified to engage in acts of terror until this is achieved and that every Israeli, every Jew and anyone who supports Israel is a target of "war".

This is echoed by another 300 terror cells, each with their own leader operating in Gaza, the West Bank, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, etc., but of course we ignore that.

Then we have Mr. Abbas who wrote his thesis in unversity on why the holocaust never happened. he is portrayed as a peaceful moderate and yet is on record saying he will never recognize Israel as being a

Jewish state. We also know he as no control over Fatah Hawks and the other terror cells in the Palestinian Authority who operate on the West Bank and who are dedicated to destroying Israel.

Would you have me pretend no one on the West Bank is a terrorist or has terrorist sympathies and Israel should have no right to prevent terrorists from entering Israel from the West Bank or Gaza-that is unfair-because if you stop terrorists from coming in you stop Palestinians from coming into Israel and that is not fair.

Israelis should die and be the subject of non stop terror attacks to assure Palestinians move about freely into Israel to work and have access to Jerusalem, and jobs in Israel?

I do criticize Israeli policies on the West Bank. I have openly stated continued expansion exasperates any ability to engage in peace talks. I have openly stated expansion by Israel has severely damaged the fragile ecosphere of the West Bank.

I have criticized Israel for not freezing settlements in Jerusalem so peace talks can be commenced again.

I have openly criticized certain extremist Jewish settlers on the West Bank.

Yet Naomi never once have I heard you criticize Palestinian extremists.

Even Myata who I openly debate/feud with has acknowledged my comments and met me half way in the past. You and this other person on this thread-all I have seen are the usual anti Israel platitudes.

I repeat again Israel bears responsibility for policies on the West Bank which are exasperating tensions but it is not the only source of tension.

It also struggles to contain its extremist settlers (about 33% of the settlers of the West Bank) who are a volatile electorate and who when teamed with a minority of extremists in the Knesset

make Netanyahu dependent on them to stay in office. I openly admit that.

However no I will not sit here and pretend it is all Israel's fault. It is not. Israel did not illegally create Jordan. It did not start the war of 1948-9 in which the Arab League chose to try wipe out all Jews of the Middle East and then deliberately imprisoned Palestinians in camps to serve as political pawns to

pressure the world into undoing the state of Israel.

Israel did not expel one million Jews from the Arab League nations forcing the majority of them into Israel making it then impossible even if they wanted to, to take back Palestinians who wanted to return to Israel.

You can look at the Middle East in a vacum pretending only Israelis are foreigners. You can pretend the people who today call themselves Palestinians are not descended from foreigners from outside Palestine.

You can pretend that a Jew who came to Palestibe is a foreigner but a Muslim who came to Palestine is not.

You can pretend the Jews who came to Israel were colonial imperialist swine and not escaping colonialists.

It really does not matter.

All that matters if Palestinians and Israelis find a way to be able to

speak with one another.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Rue