Israel continues to spit in the face of international law

[Rue]

Because expanding the illegal settlements and not following international law is about security?

You don't make sense.

Its called rhetoric. You engage in it so does he. He returns what you give. Your language calls for his language.

The words you use invite certain words in response.

The facts are not black and white. They never were. There is no black and white, good v. evil, right v. wrong as you and others depict the equation on the West Bank as.

In fact the West Bank was never part of any sovereign state. No amount of historic revisionism can change that fact or do what you want it to do, create in international law a new doctrine that says a land that was never part of a sovereign nation is the exclusive land of only one kind of people.

Not even Israel when it founded a Jewish state excluded non Jews. Palestinians do seek this again. I say again, because people like you ignore history.

You pretend or conveniently ignore that 78% of Palestine was illegally and unilaterally seized by the British to create TransJordan contrary to international law and the TransJordanian state was created as a Palestinian state. That Palestinian state said so in its constitution. It defined Jordan as a Palestinian state which is still on its coat of arms.

The fact is and remains to this day, that under Jordanian law, no Jew is allowed citizenship and if you sell land to a Jew-you face capital punishment. This is why there are NO Jews living in Jordan.

Jordan granted a law of return granting anyone who was MUSLIM and identified themselves as a Palestinian the automatic right to obtain citizenship in Jordan.

The fact is the nation proposed for Palestinians on the West Bank also calls for a Muslim state that would expel all Jews.

You conveniently depict Israel as the bad guy and the ethnic cleanser but you ignore the fact that the Arab League of Nations expelled its one million Jews forcing 90% of them to flee to Israel after all their belongings were stolen. You then ignore under Sharia law in Muslim states of the Middle East, it continues that Jews can not own land, testify in court because they are considered unable to tell the truth and are required to hire a Muslim to represent them when doing business with another Muslim, etc.

You also conveniently ignore that Israel as part of its constitution guarantees the right to non Jewish citizens the same right to own land in Israel, vote for elected representatives, and to have its own religious and family law courts.

You conveniently forget that in Israel, non Jews live in the highest standard of living in any country of the Middle East.

So now we have the West Bank. You look at it ignoring 78% of Palestine was already turned into a non Jewish Palestinian state. You know want to take that land as well and create a second Palestinian state.

Israel says fine just don't use it as a zone to attack Israel with terrorists. You want a state, recognize us and our right to live free of terrorism.

What happens-Hamas says never and they will not stop until all of Israel and Jordan as well as the West Bank is turned into a Sharia Law Muslim theocracy. They have stated this time and time again as well as the policy that it is justified to engage in acts of terror until this is achieved and that every Israeli, every Jew and anyone who supports Israel is a target of "war".

This is echoed by another 300 terror cells, each with their own leader operating in Gaza, the West Bank, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, etc., but of course we ignore that.

Then we have Mr. Abbas who wrote his thesis in unversity on why the holocaust never happened. he is portrayed as a peaceful moderate and yet is on record saying he will never recognize Israel as being a

Jewish state. We also know he as no control over Fatah Hawks and the other terror cells in the Palestinian Authority who operate on the West Bank and who are dedicated to destroying Israel.

We pretend that no one on the West Bank is a terrorist or has terrorist sympathies and Israel should have no right to prevent terrorists from entering Israel from the West Bank or Gaza-that is unfair-because if you stop terrorists from coming in you stop Palestinians from coming into Israel and that is not fair.

Israelis should die and be the subject of non stop terror attacks to assure Palestinians move about freely into Israel to work and have access to Jerusalem, and jobs in Israel.

See unlike you I do not ignore all that.

I do criticize Israeli policies on the West Bank. I have openly stated continued expansion exasperates

any ability to engage in peace talks. I have openly stated expansion by Israel has severely damaged the fragile ecosphere of the West Bank.

I have criticized Israel for not freezing settlements in Jerusalem so peace talks can be commenced again.

I have openly criticized extremist Jewish settlers on the West Bank.

Yet Naomi never once have I heard you criticize Palestinian extremists.

Even Myata who I openly debate/feud with has acknowledged my comments and met me half way. You and this other person on this thread-all I have seen are the usual anti Israel platitudes.

I repeat again Israel bears responsibility form policies on the West Bank which are exasperating tensions. It also struggles to contain its extremist settlers (about 33% of the settlers of the West Bank) who are a volatile electorate and who when teamed with a minority of extremists in the Knesset

make Netanyahu dependent on them to stay in office. I openly admit that.

However no I will not sit here and pretend it is all Israel's fault. It is not. Israel did not illegally create Jordan. It did not start the war of 1948-9 in which the Arab League chose to try wipe out all Jews of the Middle East and then deliberately imprisoned Palestinians in camps to serve as political pawns to

pressure the world into undoing the state of Israel.

Israel did not expel one million Jews from the Arab League nations forcing the majority of them into Israel making it then impossible even if they wanted to, to take back Palestinians who wanted to return to Israel.

You can look at the Middle East in a vacum pretending only Israelis are foreigners. You can pretend the people who today call themselves Palestinians are not descended from foreigners from outside Palestine.

You can pretend that a Jew who came to Palestibne is a foreigner but a Muslim who came to Palestine is not.

You can pretend the Jews who came to Israel were colonial imperialist swine and not escaping colonialists.

I really don't care. Neither to Israelis. At this point they don't care. They realize they are alone, hope people will understand why they fight to exist and how Israel was created as an existential response to both Western Christian and Eastern Muslim violence, genocide, slaughters and discrimination, but in the end they do not care. They will do what they have to do to survive.

I say the exact same thing about Palestinians. I know many. They do not kid themselves into believing that people who utter trendy leftist or couched neo Nazi piffle about Jews and Israel and the holocaust like them any more then they like Jews.

Both peoples know what their fate is and that the key to their survival is to find a way to shut down terrorists and outsiders who meddle and claim to speak on their behalf.

[bloodyminded]

That you nit-pick the results of the Six Day War...an event you weren't alive for...also shows a rather tiresome side of you

Show me where I "nit-pick the results of the Six Day War." Go right ahead; cite my nit-picking.

You can pretend Jordan didn't lay claim to it after taking it by force of arms...then used it to attack Israel...then lost it in the fighting...all you wish.

Cite this too. Find where I suggested this, or even mentioned it, and quote me.

Right, slime-wad. The 6 Day War never happened.

And yet again. See above.

Put up or shut up.

Edited May 7, 2010 by bloodyminded

[GostHacked]

You pretend or conveniently ignore that 78% of Palestine was illegally and unilaterally seized by the British to create TransJordan contrary to international law and the TransJordanian state was created as a Palestinian state. That Palestinian state said so in its constitution. It defined Jordan as a Palestinian state which is still on its coat of arms.

However no I will not sit here and pretend it is all Israel's fault. It is not. Israel did not illegally create Jordan. It did not start the war of 1948-9 in which the Arab League chose to try wipe out all Jews of the Middle East and then deliberately imprisoned Palestinians in camps to serve as political pawns to pressure the world into undoing the state of Israel.

Rue I appreciate your posts, gives me some insight, but I want to get your opinion on this.

If the British seized all the land illegally, then what leads to a legal creation of the state of Israel within the British Mandated 'Palestine' ?

[DogOnPorch]

Show me where I "nit-pick the results of the Six Day War." Go right ahead; cite my nit-picking.

Cite this too. Find where I suggested this, or even mentioned it, and quote me.

And yet again. See above.

Put up or shut up.

----

You're trying to distract from the very argument that you began.

First, you were asked "since when does the West Bank belong to Israel?"

Then, you answered: "since" the 1967 war...meaning, by your formula, that the West Bank does belong to Israel. That is the explicit meaning of your response.

Then, I pointed out that the West Bank does not "belong" to Israel...and that Israel itself does not claim that it does.

Then, you got huffy, asserted you'd never made the claim.

So i pointed out, using your own posts, that you did.

Now you're back onto history (ignoring the historical truth that Israel does not claim to own the West Bank, which contradicts your historical revisionism)...presumably RE-asserting the claim that Israel owns the West Bank.

Nitpicking.

Israel won the war...the Arabs did not. My very words were 'left holding the bag'. Had the Arabs not forced the Six Day War, there wouldn't be any so-called Palestinians. WB would still be part of Jordan. Yasser Arafat would only have been the nephew of a famous Nazi rather than head of the PLO as well.

Now...nitpick some more.

[bloodyminded]

----

Nitpicking.

Israel won the war...the Arabs did not. My very words were 'left holding the bag'. Had the Arabs not forced the Six Day War, there wouldn't be any so-called Palestinians. WB would still be part of Jordan. Yasser Arafat would only have been the nephew of a famous Nazi rather than head of the PLO as well.

Now...nitpick some more.

Not nitpicking.

You are.

I haven't disputed what you've said about any of these subjects...did you not even notice that?

I only disputed that Israel "owns" the West Bank, an assertion Israel itself does not make; and you asserted that it did. (ie Other poster: "Since when does Israel own the West Bank?"...DogonPorch: "Since....."

A direct answer to a direct question. Unambiguous, certain, declarative.

So, you made a mistake, DoP. Man up to it, instead of accusing others around you of not reading your mind.

Edited May 7, 2010 by bloodyminded

[DogOnPorch]

More BS from yon disingenuous revisionist. Folks are free to read my post and make-up their own minds.

[bloodyminded]

More BS from yon disingenuous revisionist. Folks are free to read my post and make-up their own minds.

You still refuse to quote any of my "revisionism." But I'm a patient fellow.

[DogOnPorch]

Apparently, Israel wasn't left holding the bag in your world.

[bloodyminded]

Apparently, Israel wasn't left holding the bag in your world.

Quote me where I said it wasn't. Go ahead. Interesting challenge for you.

[DogOnPorch]

Quote me where I said it wasn't. Go ahead. Interesting challenge for you.

People are free to read the entire thread if they like. Meanwhile, you already know what you write.

[bloodyminded]

People are free to read the entire thread if they like. Meanwhile, you already know what you write.

Exactly. I know I didn't write anything you keep insisting that I did.

Which is why, if you refuse to offer the repeatedly asked-for quotes, you are conceding my point.

I graciously accept your concession.

[DogOnPorch]

The usual BS from bloodyminded. Folks are free to read the thead and decide if I'm conceding to you...as if they even cared.

Meanwhile, I'll stick to history's version of the events of 1967.

[Bob]

The usual BS from bloodyminded. Folks are free to read the thead and decide if I'm conceding to you...as if they even cared.

Meanwhile, I'll stick to history's version of the events of 1967.

If anyone's interested in the audiobook of Michael Oren's "Six Days of War", send me a PM and I'll see what I can do to hook you up.

[DogOnPorch]

Oren is a good historian re: the region.

[GostHacked]

Posted 28 April 2010 - 08:48 PM

View PostBCMan, on 27 April 2010 - 07:24 PM, said:

Since when does Westbank belong to Israel? Please Enlighten Us.

Since 1967 after the Arabs failed to defeat Israel in the 6 Day War. Jordan had annexed the place in 1949 only giving-up claim in 1988. By default, Israel was left holding the bag.

So does the West Bank belong to Israel? According to your statement, which I have quoted here, is that your answer is yes, by default Israel owns the West bank.

So what are you trying to dispute:

The fact that you say that the West Bank is part of Israel by default and left holding the bag?

Or that you never said such a thing?

Edited May 13, 2010 by GostHacked

[Moonlight Graham]

Muslim hate. Edited May 13, 2010 by Moonlight Graham

[DogOnPorch]

Posted 28 April 2010 - 08:48 PM

View PostBCMan, on 27 April 2010 - 07:24 PM, said:

Since when does Westbank belong to Israel? Please Enlighten Us.

So does the West Bank belong to Israel? According to your statement, which I have quoted here, is that your answer is yes, by default Israel owns the West bank.

So what are you trying to dispute:

The fact that you say that the West Bank is part of Israel by default and left holding the bag?

Or that you never said such a thing?

Weren't you the one who thought Israel actually still 'occupied' Gaza? Yes you are...lol.

[bloodyminded]

The usual BS from bloodyminded. Folks are free to read the thead and decide if I'm conceding to you...as if they even cared.

Meanwhile, I'll stick to history's version of the events of 1967.

Quote me where I have offered a "revisionist" history of the events of 1967. Still waiting.

[DogOnPorch]

Quote me where I have offered a "revisionist" history of the events of 1967. Still waiting.

Quote where I did...

[bloodyminded]

Quote where I did...

I didn't say you did. You keep insisting that I did.

Still waiting for those quotes of mine.

[GostHacked]

Weren't you the one who thought Israel actually still 'occupied' Gaza? Yes you are...lol.

Israel does occupy both Gaza and the West Bank. The settlements in both areas kind of prove that. And if I interpret your posts correctly you agree with me.

"left holding the bag"

[DogOnPorch]

There are no Israeli settlements in Gaza. You really should stick to topics you know well.

[GostHacked]

There are no Israeli settlements in Gaza. You really should stick to topics you know well.

Go the extra step and get rid of them in the West Bank as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IsraeliSettlementGrowthLineGraph.png

If you are not expanding or occupying, then one would not have settlements in another country's 'sovereign' territory. It's an occupation.

[DogOnPorch]

Go the extra step and get rid of them in the West Bank as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IsraeliSettlementGrowthLineGraph.png

If you are not expanding or occupying, then one would not have settlements in another country's 'sovereign' territory. It's an occupation.

Gosthacked...I like you. But you are not up enough on this subject for you and I to discuss it.

[Bonam]

then one would not have settlements in another country's 'sovereign' territory. It's an occupation.

And what other country's sovereign territory would that be? The Islamic Republic of Hamastan? Or perhaps the People's State of the West Bank? Fact is there is no other sovereign country - the Palestinian Authority is unable to exert sovereignty.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Bonam