Oleg Bach Posted February 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Civilian casualties happen in war. How can you still be surprised or outraged by this? Look - when you have an empire like Germany that was attempting to take over the whole planet and was trampling across one nation after the other - then it is justified to bomb them out of existance, because it becomes a case of survival - Dresden was flattened and no one cared about civlians..It had to be done--as with Japan--It had to be done - Afganistan if we packed up and left tomorrow would pose no serious threat to anyone - other than in the minds of some greedy board room leech who thinks that all poor people are after his money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Look - when you have an empire like Germany that was attempting to take over the whole planet and was trampling across one nation after the other - then it is justified to bomb them out of existance, because it becomes a case of survival - Dresden was flattened and no one cared about civlians..It had to be done--as with Japan--It had to be done - Nonsense....just push the Krauts back across the River Rhine and call it a day. Fact is we wanted to absolutely destroy Germany and beat the Russians to the ruins. Afganistan if we packed up and left tomorrow would pose no serious threat to anyone - other than in the minds of some greedy board room leech who thinks that all poor people are after his money. What is a serious threat? You live in New York? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted February 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Nonsense....just push the Krauts back across the River Rhine and call it a day. Fact is we wanted to absolutely destroy Germany and beat the Russians to the ruins. What is a serious threat? You live in New York? COWARDS.... The culprits were 99% Saudi nationals - the money and expertise to launch 9 11 came out of Saudi Arabia - not ONCE did any of your oil merchants playing Napoleon ever address this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 COWARDS.... The culprits were 99% Saudi nationals - the money and expertise to launch 9 11 came out of Saudi Arabia - not ONCE did any of your oil merchants playing Napoleon ever address this. Okay....and the Millennium Bomber came from Canada....wanna we should bomb Vancouver? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 No....please make that "UNCLE SAM" instead. Hearing you say please wants me to give up all the more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Hearing you say please wants me to give up all the more. Nice...you caught that extra touch of irony. Bravo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Errr...the word is acceptable, Oleg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted February 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Hearing you say please wants me to give up all the more. Wonder if saying please can I have your vast oil supply would have worked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted February 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Errr...the word is acceptable, Oleg. Not bad for a grade ten drop out hugh? Thanks for the correction...try Grrrrr next time Errrr does not have the same literary impact. Truely I am thankful for the few piano lessons and most of all to the lady who taught me to type..prior the computer age..I am fast and it sounds like zrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...when I get going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 (edited) Look - when you have an empire like Germany that was attempting to take over the whole planet and was trampling across one nation after the other - then it is justified to bomb them out of existance, because it becomes a case of survival - Dresden was flattened and no one cared about civlians..It had to be done--as with Japan--It had to be done - Afganistan if we packed up and left tomorrow would pose no serious threat to anyone - other than in the minds of some greedy board room leech who thinks that all poor people are after his money. That's correct, WWII was an all out war in which pretty much any level of enemy casualties was acceptable so long as victory could be achieved. That is obviously not the case with Afghanistan. That's why we're not carpet bombing their cities, or nuking them, or implementing a draft, or committing the entire resources of our nation and our allies to winning it. Our leaders have determined that a limited threat was posed from there, and so we are fighting a limited war. But even in a limited war casualties still happen. If civilian casualties in Afghanistan were in the millions we should be concerned, but if as you mention the occasional goat herder happens to be in the wrong place, well, civilians die in war. If your point is that we should not be fighting this war at all then that is another thread entirely, but so long as we are fighting it, it should be understood that casualties happen. Edited February 23, 2010 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted February 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 You sound as silly as the private autopsys done on individual in Toronto - at the coroners office - what a luxury we have in such curiousities. Maybe because there is no draft in Canada all we get are dumb trusting red necks to serve - soldiers that are not smart enough to be percise or careful in their judgement - Look at the quality of leadership and I will not mention the colonel black blood awaiting trial.....NO if you have the luxury to fight from a postion of reletive safety - then you should take the time NOT to kill the wrong people..but apparently the strikes are not surgical nor are our people brain surgeons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 NO if you have the luxury to fight from a postion of reletive safety - then you should take the time NOT to kill the wrong people..but apparently the strikes are not surgical nor are our people brain surgeons. Fight from a position of safety? Are you nuts? Tell that to all our soldiers that have died over there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted February 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Fight from a position of safety? Are you nuts? Tell that to all our soldiers that have died over there. Some from suicide - some from friendly fire - some form accident and most sitting in an armoured vehicle not really engaging the enemy in a heroic Rambo sort of way but getting blown up by some road side bomb..very few die going hand to hand or muzzle to muzzle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Fight from a position of safety? Are you nuts? Tell that to all our soldiers that have died over there. Interesting about-face, a mere couple of inches scroll-space down the screen from your cavalier, "ho-hum, goat-herders die" remark. Suddenly, deaths DO matter. Not the majority of deaths--not the deaths of innocent people. Even though innocent civilians make up the overwhelming bulk of killings--far more than Taliban deaths, and far more than the deaths of coalition troops. So...is death nothing to be concerned about...unless it pokes at our nationalistic military-fetish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Our leaders have determined that a limited threat was posed from there, and so we are fighting a limited war. Afghanistan was never more than a limited threat now? Hmmmm. I'm just trying to reconcile that with the unlimited number of times people have dropped Hitler's name when describing that threat. You'd swear the invading Islamo-fascist wehrmacht would be swarming ashore the minute we let our guard down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Not shocked at all....bruthas like me are used to seeing "NIGGER" co-opted by white folks for all their liberal causes and arguments. We own the brand....you just try to copy it. I found out a little while back thatin the USA, urban means Black. Last year a fellow from a US ad agency phones and asks about media targetting urban youth. I ran down the list and he stopped me ...and asked if they reached predominately african americans (sic). I stumbled...and replied that the vast majority of Canadians live in urban areas in CMAs greater than 500k.....that's when he explained that urban youth were african americans. I went home and broke the news to my wife. That my red headed son and blonde daughter were now children of colour... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 If you want to talk Afghanis in their own right, that's fine...just spare us from the "coon" drama. Christ almighty, now you are forcing me to read an oleg post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 This whole post is some what twisted don't you think...when you get right done to it..but i truely believe that most here really don't have a single clue on what war is really like, they're perception of a battlefield is like being on the rifle range or back in the 1700's when we used to use line abreast, taking turns shooting at each other at close range....with the town folks turning out on the high ground to watch the slaughter below.... Todays modern battlefield is your worse nightmare x 1000, everything a soldier is taught, or is armed with is for one reason only to close with and destroy the enemy, with any means nessicary...it's full of death and destruction, turning someone into a fine pink mist is not just a colorful military expression it's what happens when a human is hit with a 25 mm round or an RPG...thats right War is our own invention on turning hell into reality.... Soldiers rarely have the luxury of sitting down and comtemplating a problem,for days on end.... should i fire should i wait, is the house occupied by civilians etc etc...no we have split seconds to make decisions....that will effect us all for the rest of our lives....In reality our main goal in life is to take enemies lives, to survive the day, or operation to fight another day...so you look around at all your comrads faces which are as close to you as your own brothers and sisters, and you decide...taking out that mud hut with all those machine guns inside and perhaps some civilians as well ...by fast air or arty strike....or see all your comrads die in the rush to overwhelm the bad guys on foot....you got a split second....times up did you grab the radio, or are you looking into thier eyes for the last time while you shout charge, that postion.....hopefully you'll survive to write all those letters home dear miss bloggins i regret to inform you that your husband , father of your children has died in a heroic dash to kill the enemy....in order to save some civilians that the bad guys had taken hostage....and while it does happen, it's not the norm.... I'll tell you what i did i grabed the radio... I am an instrument of my government and it's people...I've been given orders to limit collatoral damage, but when the lives of my men are at stake, and there is no other chioce to be made, inocent people may die...and i will have to live with that for the rest of my life...every time i close my eyes and drift of to sleep, those moments will replay over and over in my mind... My piont is this there is NO such thing as a clean and concise war....never will be...when we as Canadians send our troops into combat , we are going to kill, bad guys and inocent civilians it's a fact of war....you either don't send us or come to the conclusion that war sucks and people on all sides are going to die....Until you've been in combat you'll never understand, and without that understanding i find it hard for you to judge me or any soldiers decission on the battle field... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 ...but i truely believe that most here really don't have a single clue on what war is really like, they're perception of a battlefield is like being on the rifle range or back in the 1700's when we used to use line abreast, taking turns shooting at each other at close range....with the town folks turning out on the high ground to watch the slaughter below.... Yes...for the most part, folks tend to be members of the 82nd Chairborne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 This whole post is some what twisted don't you think...when you get right done to it..but i truely believe that most here really don't have a single clue on what war is really like, they're perception of a battlefield is like being on the rifle range or back in the 1700's when we used to use line abreast, taking turns shooting at each other at close range....with the town folks turning out on the high ground to watch the slaughter below.... Todays modern battlefield is your worse nightmare x 1000, everything a soldier is taught, or is armed with is for one reason only to close with and destroy the enemy, with any means nessicary...it's full of death and destruction, turning someone into a fine pink mist is not just a colorful military expression it's what happens when a human is hit with a 25 mm round or an RPG...thats right War is our own invention on turning hell into reality.... Soldiers rarely have the luxury of sitting down and comtemplating a problem,for days on end.... should i fire should i wait, is the house occupied by civilians etc etc...no we have split seconds to make decisions....that will effect us all for the rest of our lives....In reality our main goal in life is to take enemies lives, to survive the day, or operation to fight another day...so you look around at all your comrads faces which are as close to you as your own brothers and sisters, and you decide...taking out that mud hut with all those machine guns inside and perhaps some civilians as well ...by fast air or arty strike....or see all your comrads die in the rush to overwhelm the bad guys on foot....you got a split second....times up did you grab the radio, or are you looking into thier eyes for the last time while you shout charge, that postion.....hopefully you'll survive to write all those letters home dear miss bloggins i regret to inform you that your husband , father of your children has died in a heroic dash to kill the enemy....in order to save some civilians that the bad guys had taken hostage....and while it does happen, it's not the norm.... I'll tell you what i did i grabed the radio... I am an instrument of my government and it's people...I've been given orders to limit collatoral damage, but when the lives of my men are at stake, and there is no other chioce to be made, inocent people may die...and i will have to live with that for the rest of my life...every time i close my eyes and drift of to sleep, those moments will replay over and over in my mind... My piont is this there is NO such thing as a clean and concise war....never will be...when we as Canadians send our troops into combat , we are going to kill, bad guys and inocent civilians it's a fact of war....you either don't send us or come to the conclusion that war sucks and people on all sides are going to die....Until you've been in combat you'll never understand, and without that understanding i find it hard for you to judge me or any soldiers decission on the battle field... But I don't hear anyone arguing what you seem to think they are arguing. In fact (speaking for myself), I only took objection to a poster's callousness about the matter; that offing civilians is not a big deal. Just a bunch of "goat-herders," after all. I find it odd that you take no exception to his remarks...when he's the one disagreeing with what you say here. I'm certainly not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 My piont is this there is NO such thing as a clean and concise war....never will be...when we as Canadians send our troops into combat , we are going to kill, bad guys and inocent civilians it's a fact of war....you either don't send us or come to the conclusion that war sucks and people on all sides are going to die....Until you've been in combat you'll never understand, and without that understanding i find it hard for you to judge me or any soldiers decission on the battle field... There never really was. Yes, there was the somewhat ritualized warfare of the late Medieval and Enlightenment period, but even then, there was nothing particularly clean about having your body ripped to pieces by cannon shot. In the olden days, warfare was limited by the fact that artillery was mainly made up of bow and arrow, trebuchet and the like, though pouring boiling grease on soldiers trying to bust through your defenses probably has to go down as one of the nastier ways humans have learned to kill and maim each other. It got really awful when someone decided to not play by the rules; like when Germans all but wiped out three Roman legions in a brilliant but ugly sneak attack at the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest, or how the folks from the Asian Steppe like the Huns, the Mongols and the Turks overwhelmed late Roman, Islamic and Byzantine defenses through some of the bloodiest warfare known. The innovation of the modern age, first hinted at during the Napoleonic Wars, but put into full and terrifying practice during the American Civil War and the Franco-Prussian War was the notion of total war, which pretty much means that everyone and everything is a legitimate target. But even that has its antecedent; the Romans salted the fields of Carthage, for instance, thus making sure that their chief rival and enemy of the time could never rise again. That probably constitutes the first kind of total warfare ever. Leave it up to the Romans to invent that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 (edited) But I don't hear anyone arguing what you seem to think they are arguing. Normally i take Oleg with a grain of salt, he's a good man, but someone or something burned him bad, and every once in awhile he goes off on one of his military tangents....On this topic it was not just Olegs comments but others as well that struck me as misdirected in regards to Civilain cas.... In fact (speaking for myself), I only took objection to a poster's callousness about the matter; that offing civilians is not a big deal. Just a bunch of "goat-herders," after all. If your refering to Bonams remarks, he was repeating what Oleg had just said...and the fact that i did not say anything in regards to them is because while i think Civilian cas are tragic, the are a part of WAR, my piont is this want to stop that , stop sending our troops into a combat zones...But once you do send in our troops don't be disgusted that there is civilian cas, because in war everything and everyone dies it's fact not be callous but fact... I hope that puts my post into a clearer light. Edited February 23, 2010 by Army Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 (edited) If your refering to Bonams remarks, he was repeating what Oleg had just said...and the fact that i did not say anything in regards to them is because while i think Civilian cas are tragic, the are a part of WAR, my piont is this want to stop that , stop sending our troops into a combat zones...But once you do send in our troops don't be disgusted that there is civilian cas, because in war everything and everyone dies it's fact not be callous but fact... I hope that puts my post into a clearer light. Your post was already clear. Basic decency shines through. It's the people who make claims about how irrelevant some innocent Afghans life is that I find objectionable. Not that some will die; but that it doesn't matter. That's what burns me, because of course it matters. A lot. And that's spelled out really well in your post; that killing is a very big deal indeed. Edited February 23, 2010 by bloodyminded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 It's the people who make claims about how irrelevant some innocent Afghans life is that I find objectionable. Not that some will die; but that it doesn't matter. That's what burns me, because of course it matters. A lot.And that's spelled out really well in your post; that killing is a very big deal indeed It's they way we've all been brought up, we take that lifeless body and convert it to a number, sometimes we add a qualifer to it such as women or children, to discribe it but that is far as we dare go...then we turn all those numbers into statistics....and we are safe...we no longer get that mental picture of a lifeless body all torn up... In the big picture they don't matter,they will not turn the tide or actions of a country or group.... to a piont where if you wipe out an entire city like dresden perhaps people will perk up...perhaps take notice, but kill a few hundrd in heavy fighting and they barely get noticed..and if they do they will be buried in next weeks news...added to the stats and forgotten... Most soldiers rarely target civilians...in fact you rarely notice them, caught up in your own life and death struggle...but i have seen soldiers risk life and limb to rescue civilians but i've yet seen any NATO soldier deliberatly target a civilian... We , as those back here in Canada always pick up on these type of topics, always concerned our troops behaving properly not roughing up POW's or not killing civilians,and yet fail to understand what we have asked these people to accomplish in our names, and flag...and it's frustrating for our soldiers while knee deep in shit, blood, and guts, thinking what did they expect...we are at war...we have to learn to meet each other in the middle... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 It's they way we've all been brought up, we take that lifeless body and convert it to a number, sometimes we add a qualifer to it such as women or children, to discribe it but that is far as we dare go...then we turn all those numbers into statistics....and we are safe...we no longer get that mental picture of a lifeless body all torn up... In the big picture they don't matter,they will not turn the tide or actions of a country or group.... to a piont where if you wipe out an entire city like dresden perhaps people will perk up...perhaps take notice, but kill a few hundrd in heavy fighting and they barely get noticed..and if they do they will be buried in next weeks news...added to the stats and forgotten... Most soldiers rarely target civilians...in fact you rarely notice them, caught up in your own life and death struggle...but i have seen soldiers risk life and limb to rescue civilians but i've yet seen any NATO soldier deliberatly target a civilian... We , as those back here in Canada always pick up on these type of topics, always concerned our troops behaving properly not roughing up POW's or not killing civilians,and yet fail to understand what we have asked these people to accomplish in our names, and flag...and it's frustrating for our soldiers while knee deep in shit, blood, and guts, thinking what did they expect...we are at war...we have to learn to meet each other in the middle... Sure. Anyone without a close relationship to the military--say, a person who not only hasn't served, but has never had family or very close friends serving--will have difficulty understanding it except in pretty abstract ways. But it doesn't have to be like that; the human imagination, and the human capacity for empathy, can help a lot. Also, a few unfair remarks aside, most criticism we hear is more about planners and policymakers than about the soldiers themselves. But critics would no doubt be better to be more careful in the way they phrase criticisms. Like you say, if people meet each other halfway, they will better understand one another. Even if they still disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.thumb.jpg.9a49e1b2f22a6d34a345152c50044aa9.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.