DogOnPorch Posted February 4, 2010 Report Posted February 4, 2010 (edited) I'm not arguing whats goin on on the ground. My argument with him is that aint nuthin' gonna change. The tribal culture will reign supreme. Certainly did here in North America...reign supreme, that is. As far as the conditions on the ground are concerned....we've been there over 8 years now with the strongest, deadliest and best equipped forces that the world can assemble. The Taliban are still there and its still ugly. If that doesnt tell you anything ... nuthin' will. Our tiny force is hardly the strongest or deadliest in history. That includes everybody right down to the cooks. Less than 100,000 I believe. Few of those are actual combat soldiers like Army Guy. One in ten perhaps? Army Guy would know... Deadly is the first day of the Somme where 60,000 Allied troops became either dead or wounded before Noon, July 1st, 1916. That's just but one example. If that sort of level of warfare were to be dished out to the Taliban...there would be no more Taliban. Taliban spotted in a village down the road? Three armored divisons following a squadron sized B-52 strike should do the trick. I remind you that the war in Iraq is supposedly over yet the slaughter continues at the same rate as during the Saddam regime. The difference being now is that deaths are far more public. 60 or so people mass murdered this week alone. Most violence in Iraq these days is Shia vs Sunni. The Americans/British/etc don't blow-up pilgrims and marketplaces. Do you think them leaving Iraq would make this violence better or worse? Edited February 4, 2010 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Born Free Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 (edited) Certainly did here in North America...reign supreme, that is. It still does. Now its "left" vs "right". Our tiny force is hardly the strongest or deadliest in history. Baloney! Its as deadly as Hell! ....If that sort of level of warfare were to be dished out to the Taliban...there would be no more Taliban. Hasnt that been the objective since day one? Whats holding you guys back? Dont answer that, I already know it. Most violence in Iraq these days is Shia vs Sunni. Thats what it was when Saddam was on the scene. Nothing has changed except for which gang is running the show. The Americans/British/etc don't blow-up pilgrims and marketplaces. Do you think them leaving Iraq would make this violence better or worse? To give you the simple answer...The Briitish and the US did indeed blow up civilians except they call it collateral damage. If Iraq hadnt been invaded for a regime change (we know the WMD crapola was a pack of lies), the violence would have been far less and would have continued to be carried out in small dungeons. The violence continues even after the so called war is over. It will in Afghanistan too. The invasion alone carried a huge cost in lives and wanton destruction. Edited February 5, 2010 by Born Free Quote
Born Free Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 (edited) Thats a slam....All i'm saying is Churchill is wrong in the terms of today right here right now... I disagree. But ask your friend if he would rather live under the Taliban or Kharsi.... Neither. Thats why he's living over here. Edited February 5, 2010 by Born Free Quote
Wilber Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 I'm not arguing whats goin on on the ground. My argument with him is that aint nuthin' gonna change. The tribal culture will reign supreme. So unlike the rest of mankind, Afghanis are incapable of change. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Born Free Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 So unlike the rest of mankind, Afghanis are incapable of change. I'm saying we aint gonna change 'em. Quote
Wilber Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 I'm saying we aint gonna change 'em. How do you know what will change them? Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Born Free Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 How do you know what will change them? Gamma waves from Mars .... Quote
DogOnPorch Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 ...we know the WMD crapola was a pack of lies... Actually, Saddam possessed and used chemical weapons numerous times. The search for the so-called WMDs included not only his hyped-up mythical nuclear program (probably quite dead since the Israelis blew it up) but his missing stockpiles of VX nerve gas and the precursors to make it. He had the capability to place chemical warheads on SCUDs which was the cause for all the fear during Gulf War 1. The conclusion many came up with re: where are the chemies?? is that they were buried somewhere in the desert (some 4500 tons of the stuff apparently...precursors et al) or shipped to Syria...which also has a chemical weapons program. But, indeed the Hans Blix-ish look under the bed style approach to WMDs turned up nothing. But it was not like Saddam didn't have time to hide things well beyond our normal reach. He claimed to have never weaponized VX, but samples of it turned up making his claim quite false. Anyways, VX is probably the most deadly chemical in the world. It takes special facilities just to get rid of it which Saddam didn't have. Iran also claims Saddam used VX during the Iran-Iraq War along with dozens of other types of chemical weapons which he was confirmed to have used. Mustard, phosgene, arsine, etc. Both the US and Russia view VX to be too deadly to have practical military use in the modern world and have been destroying their stockpiles. Baloney! Its as deadly as Hell! It's barely the size of a single US Civil War era brigade...the Canadian force. Thousands of brigades fought in the US Civil War. So don't be so daft. Hasnt that been the objective since day one? Whats holding you guys back? Dont answer that, I already know it. Which guys? What's holding them back? Thats what it was when Saddam was on the scene. Nothing has changed except for which gang is running the show. Actually, Saddam liked to invade his neighbors on occasion and use the WMDs he apparently didn't have. Like it or not, the fellow was on borrowed time. If the US and friends didn't do it, Iran was certainly going to go for it before too long. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 Gamma waves from Mars .... Indeed...no arguement there. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Army Guy Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 I'm not arguing whats goin on on the ground. My argument with him is that aint nuthin' gonna change. The tribal culture will reign supreme.As far as the conditions on the ground are concerned....we've been there over 8 years now with the strongest, deadliest and best equipped forces that the world can assemble. The Taliban are still there and its still ugly. If that doesnt tell you anything ... nuthin' will. I remind you that the war in Iraq is supposedly over yet the slaughter continues at the same rate as during the Saddam regime. The difference being now is that deaths are far more public. 60 or so people mass murdered this week alone. You are arguing on whats going on on the ground right now. But you've also painted the entire mission with one brush....The majority of Afghans want what every human being wants after 30 plus years of war...peace, jobs, a secure future for thier children...So while tribal culture does play a role in Afghan polictics, it is not the leading role, Keeping the Taliban from returning is ....building a better future for thier children is, having a job so they can feed thier family is.... Yes we've been there 8 yrs, however insurgence warfare is a whole new ball of worms, and for the most part NATO is brand new at this type of combat...new tactics and stratagy is always ongoing....and involves more than just combat,there is a massive learning curve to include Governmental liason at all levels of government, Policing, building up infra structure,....And you know what up until recently these where all Canadain military functions, or ideas maybe a quick read from some of the books written about the Afghan mission and what it entails would give you a deeper idea on the what we do over there...Read Hilliers book it will give you a over all look on what our nation has done...from the Afghan government level down to pte on the ground... If you think it's ugly today ( still not a renown tourist vaction spot) but not the wild west shit show , as when we first arrived....The taliban openly control vast areas of Afghan, they don't today...infact they don't control much of anything now... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
dizzy Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 You are arguing on whats going on on the ground right now. But you've also painted the entire mission with one brush....The majority of Afghans want what every human being wants after 30 plus years of war...peace, jobs, a secure future for thier children...So while tribal culture does play a role in Afghan polictics, it is not the leading role, Keeping the Taliban from returning is ....building a better future for thier children is, having a job so they can feed thier family is.... Yes we've been there 8 yrs, however insurgence warfare is a whole new ball of worms, and for the most part NATO is brand new at this type of combat...new tactics and stratagy is always ongoing....and involves more than just combat,there is a massive learning curve to include Governmental liason at all levels of government, Policing, building up infra structure,....And you know what up until recently these where all Canadain military functions, or ideas maybe a quick read from some of the books written about the Afghan mission and what it entails would give you a deeper idea on the what we do over there...Read Hilliers book it will give you a over all look on what our nation has done...from the Afghan government level down to pte on the ground... If you think it's ugly today ( still not a renown tourist vaction spot) but not the wild west shit show , as when we first arrived....The taliban openly control vast areas of Afghan, they don't today...infact they don't control much of anything now... +1. The stabilization agenda has to work harder to reach target. We can, with enough soldiers, provide security so that afghanis can feel confident moving forward. The last election demonstrated our weakness in this regard, but it will always be very hard to hold ground in the regions. Of vital importance is an ability to hold hwy 1 and the big cities. We must make economic development an option which, in an agriculture-based society, means space to grow product and infrastructure to transport it. McChrystal's call for a more judicious use of airpower is long overdue. I know that it might mean more casualties for serving men and women, but it is an absolutely critical part of any win strategy. If we are really there to secure some semblance of peace for the afghanis, allowing them to have greater confidence that there children won't die in their beds from a bomb drop is important. From a pure military perspective,it will make them better allies. Finally,to the OP, negotiating with the taliban is important. But,as Army Guy notes that this battle ground is different from the traditional fronts on which NATO forces have existed pre-bosnia, so too must our ideas about 'treaty' be different. Ultimately every soft taliban activist needs a real job. For example, it's no good enlisting people into the ANP if you're not going to pay them for months. People need food to fill their families' bellies, which is a daily affair, so our win on the treaty front should be more focused on economic development than cessation of hostilities type agreements. Quote
Sir Bandelot Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 when we first arrived....The taliban openly control vast areas of Afghan, they don't today...infact they don't control much of anything now... I thought they now control more than 50% of Afghanistan. Map as of June 2009: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8046577.stm Quote
Army Guy Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 The map in your link is of Pakistan. not Afghanistan. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Michael Hardner Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 If you think it's ugly today ( still not a renown tourist vaction spot) but not the wild west shit show , as when we first arrived....The taliban openly control vast areas of Afghan, they don't today...infact they don't control much of anything now... Army Guy, Thanks so much for your contributions here. I understand that you have personal experience that none of us here can compare with, and so your input is much appreciated. A few questions, though. Do you have a site that you refer to for progress on the transition to Afghan forces leading the security force ? ( Referred to as Phase 4 ) We're currently in Phase 3, I understand. What is the general feeling among Canadian personnel there ? What are they told as to our objective, and how do they rationalize this as the 'good fight' for themselves ? As ever, thank you. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Sir Bandelot Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 The map in your link is of Pakistan. not Afghanistan. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8194230.stm Quote
Born Free Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 Actually, Saddam possessed and used chemical weapons numerous times. Actually the evidence brought forth was a complete pack of lies. Quote
Born Free Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 If you think it's ugly today ( still not a renown tourist vaction spot) but not the wild west shit show , as when we first arrived....The taliban openly control vast areas of Afghan, they don't today...infact they don't control much of anything now... Well I am indeed honestly impressed with you and your fellow soldiers bravery over there as well as your insight and in depth knowledge of the current situation on the ground. I also acknowledge that the coalition forces are now in control of vast areas of Afghanistan. However, our forces dont control the Taliban or Sunnis or Shia. They never will. Thats an opinion based on hundreds of years of history staring us in the face and of a view from a civilian coming from that part of the world. Only time and many more deaths along with a very very very large bucket of our money will tell. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 Actually the evidence brought forth was a complete pack of lies. False...the best "lies" have elements of truth...material breach....ding dong Saddam is dead. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 Only time and many more deaths along with a very very very large bucket of our money will tell. The question that is never asked is: "How much is acceptable ?" Is the situation there now better than before ? What are acceptable losses ? What is an acceptable expense ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Born Free Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 False...the best "lies" have elements of truth...material breach....ding dong Saddam is dead. I agree. Powells story at the UN included a whole bunch of those "best lies" you refer to. Quote
Born Free Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 The question that is never asked is: "How much is acceptable ?" Is the situation there now better than before ? What are acceptable losses ? What is an acceptable expense ? IMO we've crossed over into the unacceptable range on all counts. Quote
dizzy Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 IMO we've crossed over into the unacceptable range on all counts. Based on what? Past mistakes, like the diversion of american troops to iraq or the secondary war on drugs? Or do you feel it was a bad mission from the beginning? Quote
DogOnPorch Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 Actually the evidence brought forth was a complete pack of lies. That Saddam used chemical weapons vs Iran? You're nuts. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dizzy Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 (edited) Saddam had used chemical warfare against the kurds. Saddam did not have WMD capability. The first is enough reason to depose him, IMHO, but the real motives and justification were less than pure. Edited February 5, 2010 by dizzy Quote
Army Guy Posted February 5, 2010 Report Posted February 5, 2010 Army Guy,Thanks so much for your contributions here. I understand that you have personal experience that none of us here can compare with, and so your input is much appreciated. I just want to remind everyone that while i do have personal experience on the ground i am not an expert on all things Aghanis and posters should continue with further research... my intention is to give all a different picture that is not always made clear in the media. and to perhaps provide some insite into some posters incorrect information. Do you have a site that you refer to for progress on the transition to Afghan forces leading the security force ? ( Referred to as Phase 4 ) We're currently in Phase 3, I understand. Do you have a site that you refer to for progress on the transition to Afghan forces leading the security force ? ( Referred to as Phase 4 ) We're currently in Phase 3, I understand. No sorry no site, just military briefings , updates that sort of thing. That being said all one has to do is gage what is happening in the media, every operation ongoing for sometime now has a Major portion of ANA attached with it. What is the general feeling among Canadian personnel there ? In regards to what exactly ? What are they told as to our objective, Soldiers are being constantly brief on the stratigic postion of our country NATO, and briefed Daily on the tactical level. I know below is the party line but it is what soldiers are constantly being told and all our work is gear around. The first four priorities focus primarily on Kandahar. Canada is helping the Government of Afghanistan to: maintain a more secure environment and establish law and order by building the capacity of the Afghan National Army and Police, and support complementary efforts in the areas of justice and corrections; provide jobs, education, and essential services, like water; provide humanitarian assistance to people in need, including refugees; and enhance the management and security of the Afghanistan-Pakistan border. Nationally, Canada is helping to: build Afghan institutions that are central to our Kandahar priorities and support democratic processes such as elections; and contribute to Afghan-led political reconciliation efforts aimed at weakening the insurgency and fostering a sustainable peace. and how do they rationalize this as the 'good fight' for themselves ? One has to remember alot of our soldiers spend alot of time out side the wire, living amoungst afghanis they see first hand just what cumstances and challages these people live with every day of thier lives...Challanges such as getting clean water, cooking a simple meal, feeding thier children.... plus they get to see war from both sides, thiers and ours....we see first hand the effects of suicide bombers on a market full of cicilians as we are the first to respond, control and clean up these every time they happen....we also see the effects of war when we engage Taliban or terrorist forces....and all of it's after math....That and the fact is Canadain soldiers have a massive will and drive to help, and in afghanistan it's easy to find someone to help....be it giving kids school suppies, building a school firehall, fire trucks, ambulances, hiways , dam projects, wells , irrigation ditches ....you name it we've built it... I can't speak for all soldiers, but i will comment on our past missions with or under the UN, for me Bosina was a nightmare...Watching war crimes take place only to record them and report them to Higher...something that is very hard to do is watch while you know you have the training , wpns, and equipment to save lives...but can't...very frustrating....In Afghan that was all changed under NATO we had the ability to stop war crimes, we could use our training , wpns and equipment to save lives...to push the bad guys back...it meant i guess for me i could do some good , and when the bad guys needed a bitch slap, they got it.. I told this story a few times, on my first tour, during a rather long foot patrol, we stopped for lunch, i noticed a young girl staring at us, so i invited her over to share my lunch....through our translator...i learned alot about the afghan people that day, you see she had her hands cut off by taliban soldiers, and her father was killed in front of her....her crime was going to school... i know it sounds far fetched, all she wanted to do was honor her fathers death by going to school....and while i sat there watching her devour my lunch listening to her story with no hands and the skills of a surgern she was done before the rest of us...And here i thought i had problems , here i thought my only problem was to survive the foot patrol survive the tour and get back to my family....and here was a 8 year old girl, who had it all figured out, she forgave those who disfigured her, killed her father....and only wanted to go to school educate herself and make a better life for her and her family....YA it left me with a few tears, and a promise, if i could prevent this from happening just once then all my blood sweat and tears would be worth it..What i still have not been able to do is forgive those that have done this and many other crimes again'st thier own people.. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
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