Smallc Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 That figure is from 2005, while this article is from 2006: Canada's doctor shortage to worsen without changes: Fraser report The number of doctors per capita in Canada will decline by 2015 without more foreign-trained doctors, but increasing the number of spots for qualified Canadian students is a better solution, the Fraser Institute concludes in a report Monday. That's why since then, the number of medical school spots have increased across the country. Manitoba for example was adding about 25 - 30 keeping about the same pace as the population growth. Now we're adding between 50 - 100 each year because A ) the number of spots at Canadian schools are more numerous, B ) we are bringing in more and more doctors from outside and C ) there are more incentives for people to stay (higher pay than before, rebate on tuition, etc). Yes, we still lose some doctors to the US, but it's become less and less of a problem each year. There are people now saying that we may have too many doctors by 2020 (thought I can't remember where I read it, I know I heard it on CBC). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 He's also very good at looking like he is saying something while saying nothing at all. That's his favourite pass time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 What are you talking about. There is a shortage of MD's because they flock to get on the US gravy train. Having a private option here will ensure more med school grads will stay in Canada. The rest of that doesn't make any sense, what's mat leave 1-2 years? Even then we have a lot of immigrants from other parts of the world who want to practice medicine but we have a greedy CMA union that wants to keep them out and make sure their salary is inflated at the expense of the health and well being of Canadians. you're accepting myth as fact there is no flood of MD's leaving the country... mat leave is often meaningless for for professional couples, MD mothers can easily leave for 5-10 years or never return to the job... It's called learning on the job. canadians suffer because we put non tariff barriers on immigrants wanting to practice medicine that can't afford to write the test to get themselves certified. learning on the job? in medicine?..aaah ok, I think I'll wait for the graduates thanks... requirements for MD qualification are not universal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 (edited) Welcome to the USA! Frustrated foreign doctors leaving Canada for U.S. There are thousands of them in Canada. They’re called IMGs, international medical graduates — trained doctors whose degrees are not recognized in this country. Consequently, many are going to the United States. because the USA has lower acceptable medical standards than Canada, USA will take what Canada rejects...conversely a US MD may not be allowed to practice in Canada so why move? where's the advantage? Edited January 31, 2010 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 That figure is from 2005, while this article is from 2006: Canada's doctor shortage to worsen without changes: Fraser report The number of doctors per capita in Canada will decline by 2015 without more foreign-trained doctors, but increasing the number of spots for qualified Canadian students is a better solution, the Fraser Institute concludes in a report Monday. So evidently, regardless of the 2.2 doctors per 1000 people, it's perceived as a problem. the MD shortage is a problem in the US as well, the US has no shortage of foreign trained MD's...if you're an MD in a foreign country like S Africa you want to get out, it's not a matter of another country stealing them, I've known a number of MD's from S Africa and they all left for the same reason, crime... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 (edited) because the USA has lower acceptable medical standards than Canada, USA will take what Canada rejects...conversely a US MD may not be allowed to practice in Canada so why move? where's the advantage? Agreed....why move for lower pay and more poorly equipped facilities. We know that Canadian doctors have no problem accepting the USA's "lower standards"....LOL! I say again..... The United States has no equivalent experience with doctors fleeing the country in such large numbers...before...or now. Edited January 31, 2010 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 the MD shortage is a problem in the US as well, the US has no shortage of foreign trained MD's...if you're an MD in a foreign country like S Africa you want to get out, it's not a matter of another country stealing them, I've known a number of MD's from S Africa and they all left for the same reason, crime... Then why did the South African commissioner single out Canada for attention when it comes to such "poaching"? I guess while they're at it, may as well stop in the Philippines and poach some nursing professionals too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naomiglover Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 No wonder I still see so many Canadian plates headed for Rochester. It's because of the weakening US $. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 It's because of the weakening US $. Canadians don't need to drive all the way to Rochester for cheaper gas and cigarettes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 (edited) It's because of the weakening US $. Suuuure it is. The Canadian dollar is still stronger in Canada than it is in the U.S., and Canadians have no charge for health care in Canada, but that's why they're heading to Mayo for their health care. Edited January 31, 2010 by American Woman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 Agreed....why move for lower pay and more poorly equipped facilities. We know that Canadian doctors have no problem accepting the USA's "lower standards"....LOL! those are the facts, american MD's have trouble entering Canada because of our higher standards of competency, the reverse is not true for the USA they'll accept nearly anyone from anywhere...Canaidan MD's raise the overall quality of US care as they'll be in the upper segment of MD's practicing in the US...I say again.....The United States has no equivalent experience with doctors fleeing the country in such large numbers...before...or now. show us the stats then instead of your parrot routine, of some 4 million americans who left the US there must be MD's in the number and with a MD shortage of about 35,000 to 40,000 the US can't afford to lose any... ...any western country with advanced care will require american MD's to meet their local standards which means passing medical exams or more years in school...very few practising MD's are willing to this, for Canadian MD's and Nurses because of higher standards required here don't have this problem... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 (edited) those are the facts, american MD's have trouble entering Canada because of our higher standards of competency, the reverse is not true for the USA they'll accept nearly anyone from anywhere...Canaidan MD's raise the overall quality of US care as they'll be in the upper segment of MD's practicing in the US... We won't just take your word for that....either way...they still flock to the US of A. You lie: Graduation from an approved medical school is a required first step in obtaining a medical license. Within the United States, medical school accreditation is determined by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (the LCME), along with the Association of Medical Colleges (AAMC) and the American Medical Association (AMA). There are 17 members of the LCME, six of whom are appointed by the AAMC and six of whom are appointed by the AMA. The remaining members are medical educators or administrators, practicing doctors, medical students or civilians. The United States Department of Education recognizes the LCME as the official accrediting board. Canadian Medical Schools also work with the LCME, in conjunction with the Committee on Accreditation of Canadian Medical Schools. These two organizations, working in collaboration, accredit schools. Students graduating from a school accredited by one of these joint committees is generally eligible to take licensing exams in both the U.S. and Canada. For students who graduate from medical schools outside the United States or Canada, generally the initial step toward getting a U.S. medical license is a bit more difficult. After graduating from a medical school that is not accredited by the LCME, international graduates must have their degree certified by the Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG). Because standards differ outside the U.S. and Canada, the ECFMG has a certification program that assesses whether students graduating from foreign institutions are qualified to do a medical residency within the United States. show us the stats then instead of your parrot routine, of some 4 million americans who left the US there must be MD's in the number and with a MD shortage of about 35,000 to 40,000 the US can't afford to lose any... But it appears that Canada can afford to lose them...LOL! ...any western country with advanced care will require american MD's to meet their local standards which means passing medical exams or more years in school...very few practising MD's are willing to this, for Canadian MD's and Nurses because of higher standards required here don't have this problem... Why are Canada's MDs leaving in the first place if such "high standards" are the best in the world? The United States has no equivalent experience with doctors fleeing the country in such large numbers...before...or now. Edited January 31, 2010 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizzy Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 (edited) The doctor drain is so yesterday's news. http://www.pnhp.org/news/2005/august/more_doctors_returni.php http://www.chsrf.ca/mythbusters/pdf/myth29_e.pdf Edited February 1, 2010 by dizzy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 The doctor drain is so yesterday's news. http://www.pnhp.org/news/2005/august/more_doctors_returni.php http://www.chsrf.ca/mythbusters/pdf/myth29_e.pdf Both links confirm that not only did the Brain Drain exist, but continues as a "trickle". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizzy Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 (edited) Both links confirm that not only did the Brain Drain exist, but continues as a "trickle". Yup, there's more money for docs in the US. Which is also part of the reason why canadian provinces haven't invested more in our healthcare system. It's a sad but true reality that, when the provincial systems cannot provide, canadians are sent to the US to get care. These numbers are statistically quite small (much smaller than the numbers of US medical tourists who head to places like canada, mexico, india and, yikes, arch-enemy cuba) but they do exist. The rationale for many provinces is that sending overflow to the US is cheaper than the cost of training and deploying doctors domestically. As a consequence, what's also kind of universally sad is that our publicly-funded system allows me better access to the best US facilities than what exists for average americans. Go figure. I support the notion of two-tier healthcare. And, I admit that healthcare is an untouchable in Canada. Governments are afraid to engage in options analysis because it would mean their end. It's our sacred cow, not unlike defense and security spending in the US. Canadians need to bone up and acknowledge that the system that served us well for the last 40 yrs is no longer sustainable. In terms of quality healthcare, I do not question that the US does early detection better. But that's pretty much all. Despite this, Canadians have less fatty, healthier, longer lives. The american system overprescribes and overutilizes, creating cost without net gain. I'm absolutely amazed at the volume of legal claims of malpractice occupying legal space in the US. Additionally, I live in a province where I have the option of two tier care (quebec). But, despite my ability to afford either option, I've so far fulfilled all of my healthcare needs in the public system. Don't get me wrong, when I get old and paranoid, I'll likely spend the dough for a next-day MRI . Until then I'll suffer the 4 day wait to see my doctor. Or, if I'm in a rush, I'll go to a walk-in clinic where I can see a doctor within an hour. Edited February 1, 2010 by dizzy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 Yup, there's more money for docs in the US. Which is also part of the reason why canadian provinces haven't invested more in our healthcare system. It's a sad but true reality that, when the provincial systems cannot provide, canadians are sent to the US to get care. These numbers are statistically quite small (much smaller than the numbers of US medical tourists who head to places like canada, mexico, india and, yikes, arch-enemy cuba) but they do exist. The rationale for many provinces is that sending overflow to the US is cheaper than the cost of training and deploying doctors domestically. As a consequence, what's also kind of universally sad is that our publicly-funded system allows me better access to the best US facilities than what exists for average americans. Go figure.it's efficeint and avoids expensive duplication of services, we do this within Canada as well, rather than every hospital trying to do every procedure you head to one that handles your ailment...for rare illnesses even hospitals in the USA do not cater to this need, for a country of 30 million some illnesses are so rare that it isn't finacially viable where as in a country of 300 million it is...and you're correct very few Canadians seek medical attention in the US, it's something like .01%...americans leaving the US for medical help is 300,000-500,000 per year depending on which source you use... I support the notion of two-tier healthcare. And, I admit that healthcare is an untouchable in Canada. Governments are afraid to engage in options analysis because it would mean their end. It's our sacred cow, not unlike defense and security spending in the US. two-tier system only benefits the wealthy the rest will be worse off with longer waits...Canadians need to bone up and acknowledge that the system that served us well for the last 40 yrs is no longer sustainable.Canadians live on average nearly three years longer than americans at half the cost of the US system how is that unsustainable?....there was a study done by an insurance organization that found it could not compete directly with the Canadian public system...3yrs longer at half the cost!...our system has it's problems and could always be improved but we have it good... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 Canadians live on average nearly three years longer than americans at half the cost of the US system how is that unsustainable?....there was a study done by an insurance organization that found it could not compete directly with the Canadian public system...3yrs longer at half the cost!...our system has it's problems and could always be improved but we have it good... Numbers/statistics alone don't always tell the story. For example, different races have different life expectancies, and our countries have a different ratio of races in our population, so perhaps that accounts for the difference/some of the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 Numbers/statistics alone don't always tell the story. For example, different races have different life expectancies, and our countries have a different ratio of races in our population, so perhaps that accounts for the difference/some of the difference. relying on racism to justify a two tier system that costs twice as much and nearly a 3 year difference in life expectancy?...sorry no... Canada is a racial/ethnically diverse country that takes in more immigrants per capita than the USA and yes we too are fat...the difference is we have 100% coverage by medicare, no one is denied treatment, no one can run out of insurance, no one can be classified as uninsurable, there is no such thing as pre-existing conditions and our MD's are 2nd to none...ya we'll sit a bitch about our waits in the ER(justifiably) but we have very little to complain about, our problem is a demographic one, an MD shortage...our population is growing faster than we can turn out MD's... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 Interesting story from today's Toronto Star The rest of the story here... So this guy is misdiagnosed in the US by his - no doubt - higher priced doctors, where he suffers with a hole in his colon for a year and yet when he doesn't get the satisfaction from emergency care from an undisclosed Canadian hospital, he suddently gets the "right" treatment in Biskmark? LOL. Obviously too many shots to the head. I wouldn't go so far to call the man an idiot, but I think he's being irresponsible by judging the entire Canadian healthcare system on his one experience. To somehow think one can have an informed opinion on the entire healthcare debate in the USA by experiencing health issues while vacationing in Canada and having a bad experience in a Canadian hospital makes no sense. I had no idea Lesnar considered himself to be a political guy. He wouldn't have made such a public statement if he didn't have strong feelings about this issue or about politics/partisanship in general. I don't know about other Canadians in here, but I have family and friends in the USA who've had their fair share of bad experiences in American hospitals and clinics. I wouldn't base an opinion on a complex debate based on that alone, though. At the end of the day, though, Canadians are receiving virtually the same quality of care as our American counterparts for about half the cost. This isn't happening without its problems, obviously. We all know of the long wait times for certain procedures and services. And for very rare illnesses of course America will offer better services in many cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 relying on racism to justify a two tier system that costs twice as much and nearly a 3 year difference in life expectancy?...sorry no... Canada is a racial/ethnically diverse country that takes in more immigrants per capita than the USA and yes we too are fat...the difference is we have 100% coverage by medicare, no one is denied treatment, no one can run out of insurance, no one can be classified as uninsurable, there is no such thing as pre-existing conditions and our MD's are 2nd to none...ya we'll sit a bitch about our waits in the ER(justifiably) but we have very little to complain about, our problem is a demographic one, an MD shortage...our population is growing faster than we can turn out MD's... Where are you getting your information regarding Canada' higher immigration rates per capita? Even if Canada's per capita immigration rates ARE higher (which I find highly doubtful), it still does not necessarily mean we have a more ethnically diverse population. At least with respect to the various ethnicities/races which have lower life expectancies. In other words, if ethnicity A generally has a lower life expectancy that the overall average, and America has a significantly higher proportion of ethnicity A composing its total population, we'd expect that to lower the overal life expectancy of Americans. All in all, though, life expectancy is one of many variables when examining the overall quality of healthcare in a country. With respect to Canada and the USA, though, it's not a very useful tool as the life expectancies in both countries are very similar, as are our healthcare standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 (edited) relying on racism to justify a two tier system that costs twice as much and nearly a 3 year difference in life expectancy?...sorry no... You say "no" as if you know, and you don't. It very well could be a factor. And fyi, pointing out that different races have different life expectancy rates is no more "racism" than pointing out that men and women have different life expectancies is "sexist." Furthermore, I'm not "justifying" anything by my input; simply stating a fact and pointing out that it could be a factor in our differing life expectancies. Canada is a racial/ethnically diverse country that takes in more immigrants per capita than the USA So what? "More immigrants" doesn't automatically mean "more diverse." If an immigrant comes from England, it's not making you more diverse. Furthermore, we may have been more diverse than Canada to begin with, so even if you do take in more immigrants per capita than we do, and looking at your population and birth rate compared to ours it makes sense that you would, it doesn't mean you are more diverse. Canada actually has a slightly higher percentage of whites than the U.S. does. Since Gabriel already clearly explained how all of this could be a factor in our life expectancies, I'll leave it at that. Edited February 1, 2010 by American Woman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 I can't BELIEVE wyly pulled the racism card... actually, I can. Apparently wyly isn't 20-year-old, either. He's like a full-blown adult and still still has his itchy finger on the extremist trigger for talking points such as "racism!". Unreal. On a more serious note, I imagine the USA's slightly lower life expectancy, if accurate (who knows? maybe the bookkeeping is slightly off on either side of the border) is largey the result of lifestyle. People in America, on average, are heavier than their Canadian counterparts. So since a multitude of lifestyle variables contribute to America's larger waistline, I'd imagine that these variables are the cause of the USA's slightly lower life expectancy. It's probably connected to obesity-related illnesses. I know when I go parts of the USA like Florida and California, and when I've been places with other Americans like business conferences or even vacation cruises, Americans tend to be larger. It's sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 (edited) I have to say that he does have a couple of good points. There is no doubt whatsoever that if a person has money that the health care received in the US is FAR superior to that received in canada. It's like getting a name brand product vs. a generic product. The healthcare in Canada is very generic, with the intent to offer the same level of care to all Canadians, regardless of socioeconomic status...A good analogy is of cars, in Canada the idea is a Chevy Cavalier will get you to work equally well as a Cadillac, even though the Cadillac is more comfortable. In the US you have the choice based on what you can afford, in Canada we are all given the Cavalier. That's simply not true and wrong on many aspects. First of all, there are many very important parallels affecting the quality of care in Canada in the USA. First, and probably most important, are the similar standards for education and residency for physicians. We have very similar standards for entrance to medical school, as well. There are also many parallels between standard for other health professionals, such as x-ray technicians and dentists. Given that the USA is more decentralized, you'll see variations in the standards for some of these positions between states, such as EMTs in ambulances not having the same training standards in one state compared to another. We've also got very similar standards for operation in hospitals and clinics, as these procedures are highly regulated by government and associations that are very similar between our two countries, such as the AMA and the CMA, Health Canada and the FDA, etc. The medical professions also share information and research via unified research channels between the two countries. The largest medical research, technology, and pharmaceutical companies harmonize their operations between both countries. I could go on and on, but the standards are largely the same. You're likely to see more variation in quality in American hospitals and clinics, though, given the larger degree decentralization with respect to some medical standards and regulations as well as free market impacts. So some hospitals or clinics will tend to cater to a wealthier type of clientèle, with others catering to less financially secure folks (hospitals and clinics that accept Medicare and Medicaid, for example). I don't want to go too much into this, but let me assure you that your oversimplification doesn't enhance the understanding of others with respect to this issue. Unfortunately I have had to have extensive experience with the medical system in Canada, and let me say I wouldn't have it any other way. Only someone with very little global context would suggest that healthcare in Canada is a Chevy Cavalier. In the global context, we've got the Bentley Continental. With respect to America, our standards are largely comparable. Of course there are some situations where the quality of care in the USA will be superior, though (most notably very rare illnesses). Edited February 1, 2010 by Gabriel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Given that the USA is more decentralized, you'll see variations in the standards for some of these positions between states, such as EMTs in ambulances not having the same training standards in one state compared to another. Canada is one of the most decentralized federations on the planet. That exact example you just gave is very common here. Every province has different paramedic standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 My link Lard thunderin cheesus, looks like ol' danny boy is off to see those yankees for some heart surgery! Sounds like someone was listening to Lesnar! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.thumb.jpg.9a49e1b2f22a6d34a345152c50044aa9.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.