UFC's Lesnar berates Canadian health care...

[Smallc]

.....Mr. Williams was not impressed with Canada's alleged 99% cardiac percentile. A province of 500,000 would not be expected to have anywhere near such a capability...and it doesn't.

No, it doesn't, but it seems that there is no reason he could not have had his procedure done in Montreal, Ottawa, or Toronto. There is speculation that this is some kind of swipe at Ottawa.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Smallc

[bush_cheney2004]

No, those wait times don't suck. A one month MAXIMUM wait means that only the least sever cases will be pushed back that far. If they think I need a CT scan, i can have it today...now probably. The reality is, Manitoba has no shortage of CT scanners or MRIs (or PETs for that matter - the wait for a PET is about 2.5 weeks) and the same is true for most of the country now.

...when they are working. Waits are not the same in the rest of the country based on provinical web site reporting.

[bush_cheney2004]

No, it doesn't, but it seems that there is no reason he could not have had his procedure done in Montreal, Ottawa, or Toronto. There is speculation that this is some kind of swipe at Ottawa.

Of course it's a swipe at Ottawa! Still, I don't have to think about California or Hawaii or British Columbia for medical care, or fly about the countryside to the one place that can do a procedure. Far more capabilities are local or regional.

[Smallc]

I thought you just said that Newfoundland and Labrador wouldn't be expected to have such capabilities?....and you're right, they wouldn't. I wouldn't expect Wyoming to. There are fully 6 different centres in Canada that can do almost all heart related procedures. Many other facilities can do a lesser number of procedures. 4 of them can do (as was stated) 99% of what can be done anywhere else. I'm not sure exactly the situation here, but it seems the attempts to use it as an attack on Canada are bound to fail.

[Smallc]

...when they are working.

yes...as I said before, American equipment never breaks... You are right though, some provinces are worse off...many aren't too.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Smallc

[bush_cheney2004]

I thought you just said that Newfoundland and Labrador wouldn't be expected to have such capabilities?....and you're right, they wouldn't. I wouldn't expect Wyoming to.

Actually, Wyoming does....has a very fine Heart Center in Casper.

There are fully 6 different centres in Canada that can do almost all heart related procedures. Many other facilities can do a lesser number of procedures. 4 of them can do (as was stated) 99% of what can be done anywhere else. I'm not sure exactly the situation here, but it seems the attempts to use it as an attack on Canada are bound to fail.

Then why did Williams do it? Your "glass is 3/4 full" optimism is admirable, but the disparities between provinces are still great for a system that promises egalitarian health care, albeit with some lengthy wait times.

[wyly]

No, those wait times don't suck. A one month MAXIMUM wait means that only the least sever cases will be pushed back that far. If they think I need a CT scan, i can have it today...now probably. The reality is, Manitoba has no shortage of CT scanners or MRIs (or PETs for that matter - the wait for a PET is about 2.5 weeks) and the same is true for most of the country now.

yes there's that as well, ER cases are done right away elective stuff gets bumped...I recall getting an MRI for an elective procedure nothing urgent, it was scheduled late at night and I was told ahead of time urgent cases could bump me out of line(never happened), I had no issues with that...

but I can't complain knowing I'll live 3 YEARS longer at half the cost than if I lived in the US...

Edited February 3, 2010 by wyly

[bush_cheney2004]

but I can't complain knowing I'll live 3 YEARS longer at half the cost than if I lived in the US...

You will need the extra 3 years for long wait times. LOL!

What are you waiting for?

Edited February 3, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[wyly]

So what? I guarantee you that if US doctors had 100% miracle treatments, even more Canadians would bolt for the border. Forget the drama....Canadians with the ability to make that choice...often choose "American style" health care.

well many many many many wealthy Canadians do have that choice but still do not, even in Canada where there is an option private care the wealthy do not take that route...because it's stupid! they reject the option even when they can well afford it...

[bush_cheney2004]

well many many many many wealthy Canadians do have that choice but still do not, even in Canada where there is an option private care the wealthy do not take that route...because it's stupid! they reject the option even when they can well afford it...

...while others don't reject the option....and are glad they have both choices. Because when asses are on the waiting line.....

[wyly]

...while others don't reject the option....and are glad they have both choices. Because when asses are on the waiting line.....

urgent cases don't wait...

the only stat that matters...

Canadians live 3 years longer

Edited February 3, 2010 by wyly

[bush_cheney2004]

urgent cases don't wait...

...while all the rest patriotically suffer in queue, except for those who choose not to, like Williams, Chretien, Stronach, etc. , etc.

Canadians live 3 years longer

...need more time to watch American television programs!

Edited February 3, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[dizzy]

Large numbers....nope, but enough numbers and provincial reports to see that excess American capacity is part of the planning to meet Canadian health care needs. I live close to the Canadian border, but it would never occur to me to seek competent health care in Canada...don't need to.

The only numbers I've seen are statistically miniscule. Plenty of americans (also statistically minimal) travel in the opposite direction, primarily for drugs or nonessentials such as lasik, or to other other countries for hips, knees, hearts, cancer treatment, etc.

My question is, why do people care? This not a national security issue, it's just trade. I know there are some fantastic facilities in the US and it's no mistake that some setup along the border. The provincial plans act as purchasing pools that can secure a good price and establish expectations for standards of care that I can't as an individual consumer. Just like they do with providers in Canada.

[bush_cheney2004]

The only numbers I've seen are statistically miniscule. Plenty of americans (also statistically minimal) travel in the opposite direction, primarily for drugs or nonessentials such as lasik, or to other other countries for hips, knees, hearts, cancer treatment, etc.

Statistically insignificant, but politically monumental. Advocates of a single payer system in the US point to Canada as an example, when in fact the provinces (as a matter of official policy) rely on the excess capacity and capabilities of America's existing system to meet shortfalls. This is different from garden variety medical tourism by individuals.

My question is, why do people care? This not a national security issue, it's just trade. I know there are some fantastic facilities in the US and it's no mistake that some setup along the border. The provincial plans act as purchasing pools that can secure a good price and establish expectations for standards of care that I can't as an individual consumer. Just like they do with providers in Canada.

People care because they don't want any dilution of existing choices and capacity just to satisfy a political agenda (universal access). Hell, if the Americans wanted a better system, there is a far better public-private example in France.

[dizzy]

Statistically insignificant, but politically monumental. Advocates of a single payer system in the US point to Canada as an example, when in fact the provinces (as a matter of official policy) rely on the excess capacity and capabilities of America's existing system to meet shortfalls. This is different from garden variety medical tourism by individuals.

I think the fuss over Danny heading south is ridiculous, but I'm glad it happened. The patriotic fervour and chauvinism is needed if we have any chance of getting healthcare reform back in people's minds. It doesn't really matter because change is already in the works, thanks in part to court influence, but I think it's important to have my fellow citizens involved in the discussion. Healthcare might not be a right, but it's definitely a strong thread in the fabric of our political identity.

People care because they don't want any dilution of existing choices and capacity just to satisfy a political agenda (universal access). Hell, if the Americans wanted a better system, there is a far better public-private example in France.

It took me awhile to decipher your response on this point until I realized that you're talking exclusively from the american pov (which, seeing from your posting habits, I find consistent but also a little weird given that this website is called mapleleafweb.com...), so I'll respond to that. Clearly, americans also want to improve their system. I think that Canada offers some overall good directions on the broader determinants of health. I agree that France presents a better option with respect to public/private medicare, but also one that would be very hard to integrate into american culture. Think of the taxes! Obama really did give you a good option on first draft with the variant on the swiss model. The present bills are so diluted that you'll likely get a program that offers you more pain with little gain.

Edited February 3, 2010 by dizzy

[bush_cheney2004]

I think the fuss over Danny heading south is ridiculous, but I'm glad it happened. The patriotic fervour and chauvinism is needed if we have any chance of getting healthcare reform back in people's minds. It doesn't really matter because change is already in the works, thanks in part to court influence, but I think it's important to have my fellow citizens involved in the discussion. Healthcare might not be a right, but it's definitely a strong thread in the fabric of our political identity.

Yes, it is amazing how it has become the "third rail" in Canada...touch it and risk political death! The Americans have attempted so called health care reform on and off for over 60 years. This too will pass.

It took me awhile to decipher your response on this point until I realized that you're talking exclusively from the american pov (which, seeing from your posting habits, I find consistent but also a little weird given that this website is called mapleleafweb.com...), so I'll respond to that.

No biggee....American content is so pervasive on this site it wouldn't matter if I were here or not. Technically, this Lethbridge College site is hosted from Houston, Texas...not far from the Bush ranch!

Clearly, americans also want to improve their system. I think that Canada offers some overall good directions on the broader determinants of health. I agree that France presents an overall better option with respect to public/private medicare, but also one that would be very hard to integrate into american culture. Think of the taxes!

Frankly, most Americans didn't give a damn or notice what provinces did for cross border contracts and care until the latest reform cycle. I see Manitoba and Alberta plates routinely and figure it's not just for Mall of America shopping....they can do that in Edmonton.

Obama really did give you a good option on first draft with the variant on the swiss model. The present bills are so diluted that you'll likely get a program that offers you more pain with little gain.

They could eliminate pre-existing condition exclusions and cross state sales to declare victory. There is just no way to overhaul 15% of US GDP based on ideology....the Clintons found that out back in '93 - '94.

[Smallc]

Actually, Wyoming does....has a very fine Heart Center in Casper.

So does Newfoundland and Labrador, but they can't do everything, just as I suspect is the case at the centre in Wyoming.

[dizzy]

Yes, it is amazing how it has become the "third rail" in Canada...touch it and risk political death! The Americans have attempted so called health care reform on and off for over 60 years. This too will pass.

I do agree that it is an untouchable, exaggerated in forums like this where there's some cross national goading at play. We see that on different issues in every country.

I'm unsure what will come of healthcare reform in the US. I'm looking at my neigbhour's empty home as I write. They're seniors and american citizens who would like to retire fulltime to their home near knoxville. Instead, they're sitting on a $600K home here so that they can keep their 6 months + a day. All because of healthcare...

It sounds like you've got a good thing going on and, to be frank, so do I. This system has always treated me very well (including for a couple of near death adventures, and a lost kidney and spleen to show for it ). I haven't had to but if I need to, I can afford the out-of-pocket for private access. I expect that most of these options will soon be covered in my and many other's private health plans. But not everyone in either of our fair countries has that option and that means something to me. Exercising an opportunity to improve does not mean that things are bad.

No biggee....American content is so pervasive on this site it wouldn't matter if I were here or not. Technically, this Lethbridge College site is hosted from Houston, Texas...not far from the Bush ranch!

not my point, but also not really my concern... just an observation.

Frankly, most Americans didn't give a damn or notice what provinces did for cross border contracts and care until the latest reform cycle. I see Manitoba and Alberta plates routinely and figure it's not just for Mall of America shopping....they can do that in Edmonton.

I'm not surprised. I've got love for my american peeps, but they are the only people in the world who are actually proud to be ignorant of the world outside of their borders

They could eliminate pre-existing condition exclusions and cross state sales to declare victory. There is just no way to overhaul 15% of US GDP based on ideology....the Clintons found that out back in '93 - '94.

Eliminating pre-existing and out-of-jurisdiction exclusions would be a big start... but under-coverage and overutilization are also considerable problems, even for those with insurance. The need for tort reform is overstated but another nice-to-have.

Edited February 4, 2010 by dizzy

[bush_cheney2004]

So does Newfoundland and Labrador, but they can't do everything, just as I suspect is the case at the centre in Wyoming.

OK...I'll play along. You thought Wyoming would be a good example of a cardiac care backwater comparable to NF/LAB....turns out they can do a lot in Casper.....no waiting either!

Diagnostic Testing

Angiogram

Arteriogram

Diagnostic Cardiac Catheterization (Heart Cath)

CT Scan

Dobutamine Stress Echo

Echocardiography

Exercise Electrocardiogram (EKG)

Exercise Echocardiogram

Holter Monitor

MRI

Myocardial Perfusion Scan

Radionuclide Angiography Scan

Signal Average Electrocardiogram (EKG)

Tilt Table Procedures

Transesophageal Echo (TEE)

Ultrafast CT Scanning

Vascular Testing

Catheterization Labs

Stent

Rotoblator Therapy

Angiojet

Distal Protection Devices

Peripheral Vascular Procedures

Intravascular Ultrasound

Patent Foramen Ovale (PFO)

Device Implants

Intracoronary Brachytherapy (radiation)

Operating Room

Coronary Artery Bypass Graft Surgery

Aortic Valve Replacement

Mitral Valve Repair

Mitral Valve Replacement

Tricuspid Valve Repair

Tricuspid Valve Replacement

Aneurysm Repair

Atrial Fibrillation Treatment & Ablation

Ventricular Aneurysm Repair

Open Heart Surgery

Mini Maze

Cardiac Rehab and Wellness

A multi-phase cardiac rehabilitation program helps you to achieve their best level of function. We focus not only on physical rehabilitation but your overall wellness as well. Services include:

Cardiac Rehab

Cardiopulmonary Wellness

Comprehensive Diabetes Education

Cholesterol Management Program

Nutrition Education and Counseling with a Registered Dietitian

[Smallc]

Newfoundland and Labrador can do almost all of those things as well, and they can all be done in Halifax.

[wyly]

well look at what I found today

As far back as 1993, the New York Times reported that from August 1992 to February 1993, the Ontario health ministry had received 60,000medical claims from Americans, who were using counterfeit and fraudulent health-care cards. The Times quoted a Windsor obstetrician who estimated that at any given time he was seeing up to 20 American patients in his practice.

60,000 americans came here compared to the 200 canadians from Onatario and Quebec referred to the US for medical help last year...

then there's this article by an american who movedto Canada

and I found a number of references to americans coming here a paying for elective procedures

[Guest American Woman]

I'm looking at my neigbhour's empty home as I write. They're seniors and american citizens who would like to retire fulltime to their home near knoxville. Instead, they're sitting on a $600K home here so that they can keep their 6 months + a day. All because of healthcare...

If that's true, they aren't the sharpest tools in the shed.

I've got love for my american peeps, but they are the only people in the world who are actually proud to be ignorant of the world outside of their borders

Methinks you've been watching too much Rick Mercer.

But speaking of stereotypes, this is from a book I just finished, "Naked in Dangerous Places," by Cash Peters (2009), regarding a health issue when he was in Newfoundland:

It's your gallbladder, a doctor told me ... We may have to operate."

"But I'm shooting a TV show."

"I don't care .... I think you should let us operate."

"No," I sputtered hysterical, "you can't operate. I'm a Christian Scientist."

Not strictly true, but Newfoundland's part of Canada, and I wasn't sure if Canadian doctors were up to speed on recent medical advances--anesthetic, for example. Unwilling to take the gamble, I .... checked myself out of the hospital the next morning ....

And he's not even American; he's British.

[Smallc]

And that story was relevant because?

[dizzy]

And that story was relevant because?

It's not relevant. There's no narrative within the contributions of some here. It's just tit for tat, like a basketball game or a schoolyard skirmish.

[Guest American Woman]

It's not relevant. There's no narrative within the contributions of some here. It's just tit for tat, like a basketball game or a schoolyard skirmish.

Which is exactly what you did, and why I responded in kind. I thought I made that clear, and I'm thinking I did. Guess it's only "relevant" when you're the one doing it, eh?

(You might want to look for your sense of humor --- you seem to have lost it somewhere between poking fun at Americans and having Canada being poked fun at. )

Edited February 4, 2010 by American Woman