Haiti shame

[wyly]

I think some people need to gear down, you just don't launch an opertion of serveral thousand troops expect to hit the shores and shoot rations and fresh water out your ass, saving the day....it all takes planning and prepartion, infra structure, equipent, and troops...every thing that haiti has little to none of....

Assigning blame, pionting to the military....thier to blame...give me a break...you nor the media have a clue to what it takes to get stores , supplies, troops, equipment from one airport to another, 1 plane arrives every 2 minutes of the day....think about that...people civilian and military...on the same flights...equipment needed to process clean water, to do construction,thosands of problems all being solved at the same time...

correct...I've seen/heard a lot of criticism in the last week of the relief operation in media, these people have zero concept of what a huge logistical problem this is, multiplied many times by local conditions...Desert Storm with about a million participants to feed and house took months to organize in optimum conditions with no local destruction, no injured... in Haiti we have no infrastructure in place,no effective government, 1-2,000,000 to feed, hundreds of thousands of injured, hundreds of thousands of dead to dispose of, incredible damage to clear and repair...and people expect the Haiti situation to fixed, supplied, medicated and fed on a couple of days notice...

[eyeball]

I think some people need to gear down, you just don't launch an opertion of serveral thousand troops expect to hit the shores and shoot rations and fresh water out your ass, saving the day....it all takes planning and prepartion, infra structure, equipent, and troops...every thing that haiti has little to none of....

Will Haiti have these things in place so they'll be able to deal with the next disaster that strikes?

I can certainly appreciate the need for people to maintain reasonable expectations in terms of what is immediately doable but I'd like some sign that the rebuilding effort will take into account the amoral and historical precedents that put Haiti in such a vulnerable state in the first place.

[DogOnPorch]

Will Haiti have these things in place so they'll be able to deal with the next disaster that strikes?

I can certainly appreciate the need for people to maintain reasonable expectations in terms of what is immediately doable but I'd like some sign that the rebuilding effort will take into account the amoral and historical precedents that put Haiti in such a vulnerable state in the first place.

Pirates? But wait...Jean Lafitte was born in Port-au-Prince.

[naomiglover]

I think some people need to gear down, you just don't launch an opertion of serveral thousand troops expect to hit the shores and shoot rations and fresh water out your ass, saving the day....it all takes planning and prepartion, infra structure, equipent, and troops...every thing that haiti has little to none of....

Assigning blame, pionting to the military....thier to blame...give me a break...you nor the media have a clue to what it takes to get stores , supplies, troops, equipment from one airport to another, 1 plane arrives every 2 minutes of the day....think about that...people civilian and military...on the same flights...equipment needed to process clean water, to do construction,thosands of problems all being solved at the same time...

Well said.

[Sir Bandelot]

these people have zero concept of what a huge logistical problem this is, multiplied many times by local conditions

I don't think "these people" have zero concept. No one denies it's a major challenge to coordinate. If someone goofs up, it's still a problem, even though it may be very hard. If others can do it and do it right then so should we.

Keep in mind it ain't just me, "These people" also includes officials from other countries including Italy France etc, as demonstrated in the links. IE, it's not just some guys personal blog thats condemning whats going on when whats needed is coordination of priorities. You wanna be the boss, lets see some action. Otherwise, step aside son, let a real man show how its done

[wyly]

I don't think "these people" have zero concept. No one denies it's a major challenge to coordinate. If someone goofs up, it's still a problem, even though it may be very hard. If others can do it and do it right then so should we.

Keep in mind it ain't just me, "These people" also includes officials from other countries including Italy France etc, as demonstrated in the links. IE, it's not just some guys personal blog thats condemning whats going on when whats needed is coordination of priorities. You wanna be the boss, lets see some action. Otherwise, step aside son, let a real man show how its done

I include officials from other countries as well in "these people"...I think few people understand the immensity of the problem, watching the news releases from the reporters on the scene and few of them fully understand how difficult a logistical problem it is...but that doesn't prevent them from stirring up shit when they openly criticize relief efforts...

[Argus]

I think some people need to gear down, you just don't launch an opertion of serveral thousand troops expect to hit the shores and shoot rations and fresh water out your ass, saving the day....it all takes planning and prepartion, infra structure, equipent, and troops...every thing that haiti has little to none of....

All of which is quite true - to an extent. However, a single C17 jammed with medical supplies would probably do wonders to equip most of the field hospitals currently being operated in Port Au Prince. There are scores of aircraft landing every day, yet 8 days after the earthquake it seems many of those hospitals, even those practically within spitting distance of the airport, still lack the most basic of supplies to treat horrifically injured people. I'm willing to bet there are a lot of medical supplies at the airport, however, which begs the question of why...

[DogOnPorch]

There's almost no ramp parking for large aircraft at Port-au-Prince's airport. It might be a chore just getting equipment off the planes let alone to near by rescue projects, hospitals and such.

Also, the roads have many collapesd buildings blocking them so certain areas might be isolated to vehicle traffic.

[bush_cheney2004]

There's almost no ramp parking for large aircraft at Port-au-Prince's airport. It might be a chore just getting equipment off the planes let alone to near by rescue projects, hospitals and such.

What we are seeing in Haiti is a good case study in network theory, breakdowns, and reformulation. I suppose that Haiti could have been better organized for natural disaster preparedness given past experience, but that's a ludicrous idea given the missing resources and lack of a working government.

C-17 air drops may place more aid supplies in country, but the key distribution process remains fractured or undefined. And most Haitians can't afford to store potable water, flashlights, and non-perishable food in a nonexistent basement.

[Smallc]

.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Smallc

[Oleg Bach]

Significant things were happening in Haiti. Rome wasn't built in a day....Haiti certainly wasn't going to be. There was nothing free about the money going to Haiti. You make it sound like they were sitting waiting for their welfare cheque.

ALL of ancient Rome was on welfare. A measure of wine and bread and a few coins for pocket money was doled out routinely - and to occupy the mass they had the games - but now the game is played on a bigger scale and Haiti is an amusment park with us watching the wretched horror in earnest.

[Army Guy]

All of which is quite true - to an extent. However, a single C17 jammed with medical supplies would probably do wonders to equip most of the field hospitals currently being operated in Port Au Prince. There are scores of aircraft landing every day, yet 8 days after the earthquake it seems many of those hospitals, even those practically within spitting distance of the airport, still lack the most basic of supplies to treat horrifically injured people. I'm willing to bet there are a lot of medical supplies at the airport, however, which begs the question of why...

And while Medical supplies are on the priority list they are not on the top...Troops and equipment are, along with food and water...without those items everything else are just moot...We all have to remember Haiti is in caus with hundrds of groups, nations, all trying to help, each with thousands of problems to solve at the same time...it is going to get worse before it gets better...

Getting suppies into the country is just the first step,of a very massive problem.... next is creating that countries transport network from scratch which includes land , air, and water delivery systems....all of which requires troops and equipment...and this is just one problem of thousands...because everyone is trying to create the same thing all at once....The US is doing this job, what needs to happen is we all need jion forces with them and work together...instead of recreating the wheel a thousand times, with a thousands results...it's not about this is what Canada did for haiti, or france or italy...it's about remaining focused and helping the Haitian people..

[Sir Bandelot]

All quiet on the Haitian frontier? Why no daily reports on the status of aid for the earthquake survivors? There must be a reason. If they had something good to say, they surely would tell us.

And if they don't tell us?

U.N. officials say they are still far short of reaching all 2 million quake victims estimated to need food aid.

Shortages of food, clean water, adequate shelter and latrines are creating a potential spawning ground for epidemics in a country with an estimated 1 million people made homeless by the Jan. 12 quake.

Survivors have erected flimsy shelters of cloth, cardboard or plastic in nearly every open space left in the capital.

Water is recycled - used first for brushing teeth, then for washing food, then for bathing.

The crowding and puddles of filthy water that breed mosquitoes have begun to spread diseases such as dengue and malaria. Some hospitals report that half the children they treat have malaria, though the rainy season - the peak time for mosquitoes - won't start until April.

Meanwhile, federal agencies scrambled to explain the U.S. military's suspension of medical evacuations of critically ill Haitians to the United States in a dispute over where the victims should be treated.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jKXZYLLR2aD-Ljf0vhXAxkeP3gNQ

Went to a Tim Hortons drive-thru yesterday. Below the cashiers window there is a box taped to the sill with a hole cut in it, that says "Donations for Haiti". - Dump your money in this hole.

How much money has been collected, worldwide? I think no one knows. Where is the money, how is it being used, how is it being safeguarded from theft? No one knows. They probably collected millions. But why after so long don't the people even have clean water to drink or wash in? Even if it costs a few million for a fleet of helicopters to carry the aid in, so what? Thats exactly what the money donations were supposed to be for. Seems to me, if you gave money to help people in Haiti get through this emergency, you (and the Haitians) have been shafted.

But on the brighter side, it looks like FEMA has a few thousand trailers left over from Katrina that it would like to send there. You remember, the same ones that were so contaminated with formaldehyde that they made people sick...

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/laplaza/2010/01/haiti-earthquake-.html

Edited January 31, 2010 by Sir Bandelot

[jbg]

I disagree. People care and notice. But it's very difficult to help people in that situation who don't first want to help themselves.

Great point.

The first thing I thought of when seeing the scenes down there is why is it that these dirt-poor, destitute people have so many children when they're almost starving themselves?

[bloodyminded]

Great point.

The first thing I thought of when seeing the scenes down there is why is it that these dirt-poor, destitute people have so many children when they're almost starving themselves?

Interesting. The first thing I thought was that people were suffering and that we should feel compassion. To each his own.

[wyly]

Great point.

The first thing I thought of when seeing the scenes down there is why is it that these dirt-poor, destitute people have so many children when they're almost starving themselves?

most of them are catholic and follow the Pope's order of no contraception...and those who don't care what the Pope commands are still going to have sex and if they're really poor food is more important than buying condoms...

[jbg]

Interesting. The first thing I thought was that people were suffering and that we should feel compassion. To each his own.

I feel compassion. I really do.

But I do work hard for my money. It's not given to me. There is a limit.

[bloodyminded]

I feel compassion. I really do.

But I do work hard for my money. It's not given to me. There is a limit.

I know. I shouldn't really have said that, as it's pretty obviously unfair.

[Sir Bandelot]

it's very difficult to help people in that situation who don't first want to help themselves.

Well that is certainly always going to be a part of the problem. The point of the thread though is not the obvious thing about Haiti, it's about the rip-off from those who collected big money in the guise of charity for Haiti. First we have the collosal media hype, now virtual silence. Not much attention given to what still appers to be a problem. If I gave aid to Haiti, and the money never got used towards that, I want my money back please.

Twenty-three days after the earthquake jolted Haiti and killed over 200,000 people, as many as a million people have still not received any international food assistance.

On February 4, the UN World Food Program reported they had given at least some food, mostly 55 pound bags of rice, to over a million people. The UN acknowledges that it still needs to reach another one million people. The 55 pounds of rice are expected to provide a two week food ration for a family. Beans and cooking oil are scheduled to come later.

Slowly, criticisms of the Aid effort have come out even as the morality play around the orphans rivets public attention. England’s respected medical Journal The Lancet carried a blistering attack on the delivery of aid indicting “the aid industry.” The Daily Mail reported:

“The Haiti earthquake relief operation faced scathing new criticism yesterday after aid organizations and U.S. forces (and celebrities - SB) were accused of being involved in a 'vanity parade' to show solidarity with victims.

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=17440

That's the shame.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Sir Bandelot

[Sir Bandelot]

My last post in this thread was over a month ago. You would think that by now things would have stabilized, and that minimal aid would at least have been provided.

But I was dismayed to read this report as I perused the CBC new site-

Haiti aid efforts criticized

March 7, 2010 The Associated Press

Haitian leaders — frustrated that billions are bypassing them in favour of UN agencies and American and other non-governmental organizations — are whipping up sentiment against foreign aid groups they say have gone out of control.

In the past few days, someone scrawled graffiti declaring "Down with NGO thieves" along the cracked walls that line the road between Port-au-Prince's international airport, the temporary government headquarters, and a UN base.

Leaders including Prime Minister Jean-Max Bellerive are not happy with the way the aid money is being delivered.

"The NGOs don't tell us … where the money's coming from or how they're spending it," he told The Associated Press. "Too many people are raising money without any controls, and don't explain what they're doing with it."

A half a million homeless have received tarps and tents, but far more are still waiting under soggy bed sheets in camps that reek of human waste.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Sir Bandelot

[jbg]

My last post in this thread was over a month ago. You would think that by now things would have stabilized, and that minimal aid would at least have been provided.

But I was dismayed to read this report as I perused the CBC new site-

Haiti aid efforts criticized

***********

Are you surprised?

1. Bilions were raised for Bangladesh in 1971. What happened to that money?
   
2. Bilions were raised by U.S.A for Africa (remember "We Are the World") in 1984. What happened to that money?
   
3. Bilions were raised for Katrina victims in 2005. What happened to that money?
   
4. Bilions were raised for Indonesia in 2005. What happened to that money?
   
5. Bilions were raised for Pakistan after its 2007 earthquake. What happened to that money?
   

And that's just a few cases.

[Sir Bandelot]

Are you surprised?

Not really surprised. Upset, disappointed, perhaps. I seek to expose the liars and disillusion those who think it's all good. The sad fact is that a lot of good people donated money in the hope that it would be used to help others, meanwhile it is mostly being used to help line the pockets of profiteers.

[Bonam]

The sad fact is that a lot of good foolish people donated money in the hope that it would be used to help others, meanwhile it is mostly being used to help line the pockets of profiteers.

Fixed

[Smallc]

And why exactly were we foolish? I realize, as a libertarian that you would never willingly give away money, but the rest of us like to help people.

[jbg]

Not really surprised. Upset, disappointed, perhaps. I seek to expose the liars and disillusion those who think it's all good. The sad fact is that a lot of good people donated money in the hope that it would be used to help others, meanwhile it is mostly being used to help line the pockets of profiteers.

I'll give you a distant memory from my childhood (well sort of, I was 14). This is the reason the Bangladesh fiasco was listed.

During that period of my life, Bob Dylan and George Harrison were among my favorite musicians, since I liked (and still like) intelligent, literate rock and folk music. When I was at sleepaway camp during August 1971 I learned that Bob Dylan made a surprise appearance at the Bangladesh benefit concert organized by George Harrison and sitar guru Ravi Shankar at Madison Square Garden. Around January 1972 the benefit album was released. I was at my parents' throat to become among the earliest purchasers, for the good of the world as much as for my listening pleasure. I was actually sincere and idealistic about helping the starving people of Bangladesh.

I was extremely disillusioned to learn a few months later that almost all the proceeds went to production overhead and that what little "profit" was left was taken by corrupt politicians. I was also naively surprised that Bangladesh didn't return the West's generosity by recognizing Israel or otherwise joining with the West. They were willing to accept our help, and do nothing in return.

Edited March 8, 2010 by jbg