Harper to prorogue parliament AGAIN?

bush_cheney2004 · January 7, 2010

The Liberals haven't pushed the American thing in a while. The Conservatives have and Iggy has taken a blow. Go on the Globe and Mail website or the Star Website or Macleans and the biggest comment is that the traitor Iggy is just going to go back to Harvard after he loses. It's a far bigger deal here than you'd like to give credit to.

But that's exactly what we said would happen to the Reluctant Canadian. I can cue the Whitman College speech from 2004 wherein he cloaks himself as an American citizen. It should have been a big deal from the very beginning.

Cap and tax is kind of radical here. Not even the CPC would pull something like that here. A carbon tax? Sure, but most Canadians want action on the environment and to spin such an important issue so blatantly in such a partisan measure would meet with disaster. Sure the hardcore supporters would love it, but they'd really suffer in the general polls.

Not feeling it...the environment has to compete with other issues, and right now it is down on the list, even in Canada.

I wouldn't say Canada is totally dedicated to Obama bandwidth. I mean, in the end, Bush got just as much press but in a more negative light because frankly, he deserved it. Local Canadian news follows really big announcements and the online papers do the same. In the end, the US plays such a big role in the Canadian economy that it just has to be that way.

If you say so...it is just so relentless, as if Canadian media just bookmarks space for whatever comes their whether it be Obama or TMZ. Even the comments from readers are laced with American references....for even Canadian stories!

For me at least, it's overhyped because for some reason my family loves CNN which has just turned into garbage and that's all I get on TV. It's awful. Honestly, when my family isn't in town if I need the news I just turn on the BBC to get a non-north american bias. Fox News has ruined everything. Everyone is so busy playing to the lowest common denominator to make more money from ad revenue that its trash. People love it, but Fox News proves that the market truly isn't a rational actor.

Look....even I can watch CPAC or catch Question Period on C-SPAN. It's there if you go to the trouble of finding it.

nicky10013 · January 7, 2010

But that's exactly what we said would happen to the Reluctant Canadian. I can cue the Whitman College speech from 2004 wherein he cloaks himself as an American citizen. It should have been a big deal from the very beginning.

Not feeling it...the environment has to compete with other issues, and right now it is down on the list, even in Canada.

If you say so...it is just so relentless, as if Canadian media just bookmarks space for whatever comes their whether it be Obama or TMZ. Even the comments from readers are laced with American references....for even Canadian stories!

Look....even I can watch CPAC or catch Question Period on C-SPAN. It's there if you go to the trouble of finding it.

I suppose your right, but in the end a person who is successful abroad shouldn't be berated at home for attempting to seek public office. With the growth of globalism we're going to be seeing a LOT more of the Ignatieff type story.

Yeah, the comments are laced with American references because TV shows here aren't Canadian, they're American. Cheaper to buy than to make our own shows. Popculture is the same, but the political culture isn't which is why the green issue gets far more play here.

I agree, I know I can find C-PAC and I try to watch question period when I can. The problem is the folks seem to enjoy that less than to see the idiots jabber on CNN.

Alta4ever · January 7, 2010

I suppose your right, but in the end a person who is successful abroad shouldn't be berated at home for attempting to seek public office. With the growth of globalism we're going to be seeing a LOT more of the Ignatieff type story.

No we won't we'll may see a 5 or 10 year sabbatical but someone who has lived their entire adult live outside of the country only to be wooed back by a political party no run for the leadership of the party. This will be unique to Ignatieff.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Alta4ever

nicky10013 · January 7, 2010

No we won't we'll may see a 5 or 10 year sabbatical but someone who has lived their entire adult live outside of the country only to be wooed back by a political party no run for the leadership of the party. This will be unique to Ignatieff.

Great to see Conservatives also have the ability to predict the future.

bush_cheney2004 · January 7, 2010

I suppose your right, but in the end a person who is successful abroad shouldn't be berated at home for attempting to seek public office. With the growth of globalism we're going to be seeing a LOT more of the Ignatieff type story.

I'm sure Iggy is a swell guy, but intellectuals like him don't win on smarts alone. People think Bush was a complete idiot, but he slayed candidates far "smarter" than himself at the state and federal level.

Yeah, the comments are laced with American references because TV shows here aren't Canadian, they're American. Cheaper to buy than to make our own shows. Popculture is the same, but the political culture isn't which is why the green issue gets far more play here.

Getting play is fine....let's see if it translates into ridings and policy. Excepting BC's tax....nada. I mean c'mon...at least shut down Nanticoke to show us you're serious!

I agree, I know I can find C-PAC and I try to watch question period when I can. The problem is the folks seem to enjoy that less than to see the idiots jabber on CNN.

CPAC is not very entertaining, except when somebody complains that the material is not co-produced in French language as required by law. You'd think they would know to do that by now.

msdogfood · January 7, 2010

See facebook!

Canadians Against Proroguing Parliament

or my blog

Description:

On December 30th, 2009, for the second time in as many years, Stephen Harper has asked the Governor General to prorogue parliament. Like last time, he will certainly get what he's asking for, forsaking his responsibility to be accountable to his employers, us Canadians citizens.What can we do? Ask your MP to attend parliament anyways. Think it can't be done? Check this out:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_ParliamentFirst, find your MP:http://canada.gc.ca/directories-repertoires/direct-eng.html#mpOur Members of Parliament are our employees, and they should show up to do what we pay them for. If you need help getting started, here's a sample letter:Dear [MPs name]:I am writing to you to ask that you ignore Stephen Harper's request to prorogue parliament and attend anyway. This is not unprecedented in a parliamentary democracy, having occurred in England in 1640. It is important to me that you attend and I look forward to hearing from you soon.Sincerely,[Your Name]Cher Député ou Ministre (nom)Je vous écrit pour vour demander d'ignorer la requête de prorogation du Premier Ministre Stephen Harper et de vous présenter à la Chambre des Communes malgré tout. Ceci n'est pas un précédent pour un gouvernement démocratique puisque cela s'est produit en 1640 en Angleterre. Il est très important pour moi (nous) que vous teniez cet engagement de vous présenter à la Chambre des Communes malgré une prorogation et j'attends avec impatience d'obtenir des nouvelles de vous. Sincèrement,(vote nom)Écrivez une lettre, un courriel ou téléphonez votre député. Faites circuler auprès de vos amis et de votre famille pour qu'ils s'impliquent. Nous devons montrer à ce gouvernement ce qu'est une VRAIE démocratie.Vous pouvez également contacter la Gourverneure Générale. Même si la décision a déjà été prise, il n'est pas trop tard pour lui faire connaître votre indignation et votre colère. Email Gouverneure Générale [email protected], email, write your MP. Tell your friends and family to get involved. We need to show the government what real democracy is about!Also, feel free to contact the Governor General. While her decision has already been made, its not too late to voice your anger:[email protected] (read less)

On December 30th, 2009, for the second time in as many years, Stephen Harper has asked the Governor General to prorogue parliament. Like last time, he will certainly get what he's asking for, forsaking his responsibility to be accountable to his employers, us Canadians citizens.What can we do? Ask your MP to attend parliament anyways. Think it can't be done? Check this out:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_ParliamentFirst, find your... (read more)

jbg · January 7, 2010

But you seem to be willfully forgetting about the existence of the NDP and the Bloc. Their MPs count, too, and their participation made the events of December 2008 anything but a coup.

One of my favorite posters on BT uses "a vote for the NDP is an out-of-province vote for the Bloc". 'Nuf said.

nicky10013 · January 7, 2010

I'm sure Iggy is a swell guy, but intellectuals like him don't win on smarts alone. People think Bush was a complete idiot, but he slayed candidates far "smarter" than himself at the state and federal level.

Getting play is fine....let's see if it translates into ridings and policy. Excepting BC's tax....nada. I mean c'mon...at least shut down Nanticoke to show us you're serious!

CPAC is not very entertaining, except when somebody complains that the material is not co-produced in French language as required by law. You'd think they would know to do that by now.

I thought Nanticoke was shut down. I guess I was wrong. Considering only 19% of energy circa 2005 comes from burning coal, I'd say we're at least a head of the curve considering the US as a whole derives around 50% of its energy from coal. That's a LOT of coal.

As for CPAC, I find it interesting depending on which committee is on. It was interesting watching conservatives squirm when shown the hard evidence that safe injection sites work and just throwing people into prison doesn't. Question period is always a hoot.

I also never said anyone gets elected on smarts alone. I think during the next election the ball in his court but its his to lose as much as it his to win. There is never a shortage of politicians given political gifts that just can't convert. As for Bush, yeah he slayed them but in the end the voters weren't looking for someone that was smart. They were looking for someone they could have a beer with. By and large that was his greatest appeal. Look how that turned out. Intelligence shouldn't be the only pre-requisite but it has to be at the top of the list. It makes for stupid decisions or an administration run by un-elected aides.

cybercoma · January 7, 2010

I wonder what you would have though of the Liberals doing it after the winter session was 50 seconds in, just before the opposition leader stands up to speak.

The exact same thing. It's ridiculous when the government refuses to answer to the elected representatives of the people. Listen, I've been a Harper apologist in the past (I supported the last prorogue to avoid that ridiculous coalition); however, this time it has gone too far.

The Conservatives were not elected for the job the proposed to do. Instead, Canadians elected the Conservatives because they were fed up with the arrogance and sense of entitlement that the Liberals have had. The Conservatives were elected on a platform of accountability and change. Now, at a time when accountability is crucial, Harper snakes away into the loophole of proroguing parliament. Shame on him.

ToadBrother · January 7, 2010

Has PM Harper not been successful ? Why should he change a winning formula, no matter how you may characterise it from the losing corner.

He's gone through two elections without delivering a majority government. While he's approached the magic 40% number, he has yet to cross it, and the latest polls show him dropping down into the low 30s. He's been successful as the leader of the governing party in only a rather moderate fashion. When the history books are written, I think Harper's real successes will be seen as his reuniting of the Right (though it took Peter MacKay basically kicking the corpse of the PCs to get it done). As a Prime Minister, other than in some impressive, if highly disturbing, Machiavellian maneuvering, I wouldn't call him a success. A success would be someone like Jean Chretien, who won three back-to-back elections.

Mr.Canada · January 7, 2010

He's gone through two elections without delivering a majority government. While he's approached the magic 40% number, he has yet to cross it, and the latest polls show him dropping down into the low 30s. He's been successful as the leader of the governing party in only a rather moderate fashion. When the history books are written, I think Harper's real successes will be seen as his reuniting of the Right (though it took Peter MacKay basically kicking the corpse of the PCs to get it done). As a Prime Minister, other than in some impressive, if highly disturbing, Machiavellian maneuvering, I wouldn't call him a success. A success would be someone like Jean Chretien, who won three back-to-back elections.

Jean Chretien won his last two elections against a split right vote. If you combines the right numbers for those years Chretien wouldn't have won all those majorities. He was fortunate and lucky nothing more.

ToadBrother · January 7, 2010

Jean Chretien won his last two elections against a split right vote. If you combines the right numbers for those years Chretien wouldn't have won all those majorities. He was fortunate and lucky nothing more.

It was hardly luck. One of the smartest things he and Martin ever did was to basically lift large swathes of Reform's economic plan. Chretien managed to play into fears particularly in Ontario that Reform was dominated by social conservatives (whether that was justified or not). Chretien repeatedly outmaneuvered everyone, only being brought down in the end by his own party (and I rather suspect that, by that point, he'd probably had enough of the game anyways). But there are other examples. Trudeau won several elections. Mulroney won two back-to-back majorities, and neither of them had splits in the opposition to deliver them success. Harper has a united Right and he still can't get even a bare majority, and everytime you guys start trumpeting how he's going to take next time, Conservative numbers fall.

This rather explains Harper's statements a few days ago that "Canadians don't want another election", which should have been translated "Conservatives don't dare go to the polls."

Mr.Canada · January 7, 2010

It was hardly luck. One of the smartest things he and Martin ever did was to basically lift large swathes of Reform's economic plan. Chretien managed to play into fears particularly in Ontario that Reform was dominated by social conservatives (whether that was justified or not). Chretien repeatedly outmaneuvered everyone, only being brought down in the end by his own party (and I rather suspect that, by that point, he'd probably had enough of the game anyways). But there are other examples. Trudeau won several elections. Mulroney won two back-to-back majorities, and neither of them had splits in the opposition to deliver them success. Harper has a united Right and he still can't get even a bare majority, and everytime you guys start trumpeting how he's going to take next time, Conservative numbers fall.

This rather explains Harper's statements a few days ago that "Canadians don't want another election", which should have been translated "Conservatives don't dare go to the polls."

As long as the Tories are in power I don't really care what shape it takes as long as we can get a strong control of the Senate, that's what matters. That's where the real power is.

Sure it'd be nice to have majority of the house but I'll take majority control over the Senate for the next 15 years instead if I had to make a choice. Minority Tory government backed by a majority of the Senate. That way the Senate can change any bill that gets passed in the house to better reflect a right wing mandate.

Works for me.

cybercoma · January 7, 2010

As long as the Tories are in power I don't really care what shape it takes as long as we can get a strong control of the Senate, that's what matters. That's where the real power is.

So much for that EEE Senate Harper used to support, right? I think I'm becoming very jaded and cynical about politics in this country.

ToadBrother · January 7, 2010

So much for that EEE Senate Harper used to support, right? I think I'm becoming very jaded and cynical about politics in this country.

I think Lawrence Martin in his editorial hit it on the head. Harper could give a damn about policy. He clearly views politics as a game, with the sole object being the winner. That Parliament increasingly is sidelined is of no importance to him whatsoever. The saddest part is that the Tory MPs seem so willing to let themselves be rendered obsolete. All those centuries of struggle to make Parliament supreme, and it's being flushed down the toilet for a bit of help every election in sign and printing funds.

JB Globe · January 7, 2010

This Angus Reid Poll shows that a majority of Canadians disapprove of Harper proroguing Parliament again.

What's good to see also, is even among conservatives, over half disagree with his decision. I was concerned this issue would become partisan quickly, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Most Canadians see this issue as a crisis of Parliamentary democracy, rather than a "lefty vs righty" issue.

Frankly, it's times like this where you find out if you're more of a party-loyalist or a democratic-loyalist.

Congrats to the conservatives here and across the country who are putting Canadian interests above Harper's personal political interests.

Maybe our actions can insulate the beating Canada's reputation is starting to take internationally because of this move, just look at what The Economist had to say here and here.

Edited January 7, 2010 by JB Globe

ToadBrother · January 7, 2010

And its too bad you can't grasp the fact Canadian soldiers didn't do anything wrong! the Afghan Army may have but so what? The Americans used to hand over VC prisoners to the South Vietnamese Army all the time and they tortured and executed many of those prisoners. Whatever the Afghans do with Al Qaeda or Taliban scum is their business, who cares! they are terrorist's and deserve whatever happens to them....silly Canadians should be more concerned about their own safety as evident with the attempt to blow up another Jet by Al Qaeda than worry about the safety of the people who are trying to kill us!

Either Liberty exists for all, or it exists for none. In one respect, no, the Canadian soldiers didn't abuse anybody. But if detainees were knowingly being turned over to Afghani authorities for torture, then yes, Canadian soldiers were involved in something wrong.

But at any rate, and regardless of any of that, Parliament has the right, nay not just the right, is the sole body in this country with unrestricted power to compel Ministers and their departments to reveal all documents. Even if it's just a nasty little fishing expedition that goes nowhere, Harper and his ministers have no right and no authority to deprive Parliament of that information. Prorogation appears to have been in large part done precisely to avoid having to provide unredacted documents, it is an abuse of power, pure and simple.

Edited January 7, 2010 by ToadBrother

eyeball · January 7, 2010

What's good to see also, is even among conservatives, over half disagree with his decision. I was concerned this issue would become partisan quickly, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Most Canadians see this issue as a crisis of Parliamentary democracy, rather than a "lefty vs righty" issue.

Frankly, it's times like this where you find out if you're more of a party-loyalist or a democratic-loyalist.

Or more of an authoritarian or a libertarian and whether you're with the government or amongst the governed.

Shakeyhands · January 7, 2010

Jean Chretien won his last two elections against a split right vote. If you combines the right numbers for those years Chretien wouldn't have won all those majorities. He was fortunate and lucky nothing more.

Same can be said if the remaining left leaning parties combined....

g_bambino · January 7, 2010

I was concerned this issue would become partisan quickly, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Most Canadians see this issue as a crisis of Parliamentary democracy, rather than a "lefty vs righty" issue.
Congrats to the conservatives here and across the country who are putting Canadian interests above Harper's personal political interests.

I'm not a fan of polls, but, if these results are indicitave of the truth, then this is good news. I just hope most people really understand parliamentary democracy before commenting on it, unlike that boob Bob Hepburn in the Star

[correction]

Edited January 7, 2010 by g_bambino

Argus · January 7, 2010

This Angus Reid Poll shows that a majority of Canadians disapprove of Harper proroguing Parliament again.

Phht. A partsan poll conducted on behalf of the Liberal Party's flagship newspaper, and you actually lend it any credence? I bet most of the respondants couldn't even spell prorogue and couldn't explain what it was or how many times it has happened in Canada's history.

I'm sure there are some people who are concerned. After all, Liberal party organs like the Star have have been screaming and wailing and pulling out their hair and making as if it's a national crisis for over a week now. Some weak minded types are bound, in their ignorance, to be caught up in the deliberatel inspired "crisis mode", especially since none of them actually understand what it's all about anyway.

But Harper isn't going to lose popularity over it. Most of those gnashing their teeth would rather vote for Satan than Harper no matter what he did, so he can simply ignore their protests.

madmax · January 7, 2010

Here is the latest Angus Reid Poll on the question of Prorogation

http://www.visioncritical.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/2010.01.07_Prorogue_CAN.pdf

[VANCOUVER – Jan. 7, 2010] – The recent
prorogation of Parliament does not sit well with a

majority of Canadians, and supporters of

opposition parties are particularly dismayed by the

decision, a new Angus Reid Public Opinion poll

conducted in partnership with the Toronto Star

has found.

In the online survey of a representative national

sample of 1,019 Canadian adults, 53 per cent of

respondents disagree with the decision to

prorogue Parliament.

Conversely, only 19 per cent agree with the move.

Timely Poll.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Charles Anthony
merged thread

Argus · January 7, 2010

It's probably been mentioned to death in this thread, but I wanted to go down as saying this is utterly shameful behaviour on the part of Stephen Harper. A PM ought not to prorogue parliament every time his government gets into hot water.

He's not in hot water, not even lukewarm, in fact.

ToadBrother · January 7, 2010

He's not in hot water, not even lukewarm, in fact.

More demonstration that partisans ignore bad news, pay attention only to good news, and even make up good news when its necessary.

myata · January 7, 2010

What's good to see also, is even among conservatives, over half disagree with his decision. I was concerned this issue would become partisan quickly, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Most Canadians see this issue as a crisis of Parliamentary democracy, rather than a "lefty vs righty" issue.

People setting the interests of country and democracy above their partisan ones are the only foundation, and assurance of it (democracy) survival. Nothing heroic, only the right (pun not intended ) thing to do.

What still remains though is for disaproval to translate into act. No one shoule be allowed to trump democratic principles so blatantly and arrogantly without consequence, that would be a real danger to our democracy (I already said that I'd like to see that extended as universal principle so that even majority governments a la Chretien could get away from public scrutiny).

Edited January 7, 2010 by myata