Avatar

[Michael Hardner]

Look, perhaps it doesn't carry over well in an online forum, but I'm semi-kidding about the "sophisticated" comment I made. Some folks are able to engage in certain types of movies more easily than others. Maybe they're got better imaginations. Some people like shows like LOST and movies like Transformers. I can't stand that TV show and I don't like those types of movies. It's not that I'm "too smart" for them, I just find them too simplistic and clichéd. I have some guilty pleasure movies, but Avatar definitely isn't one of them. And Ebert is very generous with many movies. He must love movies more than anyone!

You've got to use these markers around your sarcasm: <sarcasm></sarcasm>.

<sarcasm>Great post Gabriel, I really really picked up on your sarcasm there.</sarcasm>

[kimmy]

I don't think he was being generous. This wasn't some sort of sympathy four stars. He made it clear that it is an extraordinary film. Condemning Avatar for its soupy plot line and weak and cliched characterization is kind of like condemning the first Star Wars film for the same sort of problems. In both cases, you bet, strip off the special effects, and it ain't much, but the point of both films isn't the story line, which exists simply as a means of exposing the extraordinary leap forward. Avatar, like Star Wars before it, is a game changer as far as special effects goes. That neither would earn a literary prize for their scripts is not up for debate. That both represent a quantum leap in filmmaking technology is equally certain.

Star Wars remains very entertaining even though the special effects are at this point highly passe. Terrific pacing. One of the most memorable musical scores in movie history. I'm not sure Darth Vader can be called a "special effect", but he's one of the iconic movie characters of all time. The same for Han Solo to a lesser degree.

And some of the best scenes were memorable not just because of special effects, but because of the creative use of them. It's certainly not the first movie to have model spaceships flying around in front of cameras... but the opening scene, where the Rebel ship streaks by and then the Imperial destroyer rolls over and completely engulfs the screen, was really memorable.

I watched the movie in awe. It was a feast for the senses, one of the most extraordinary and beautiful films ever made. People twenty years from now will talk about it like they talked about Star Wars, because it opens a new chapter on film possibilities.

In 1977 Star Wars didn't win "Best Picture" and Annie Hall did. 33 years later, Star Wars is not just known by just about everyone, it's pretty much part of our culture, while Annie Hall is ... something my grandparents' generation liked.

It will be interesting to see what people will think of Avatar in 33 years.

-k

[August1991]

Avatar, like Star Wars before it, is a game changer as far as special effects goes. That neither would earn a literary prize for their scripts is not up for debate. That both represent a quantum leap in filmmaking technology is equally certain.

And in 20 years, what are you going to have? A movie with very dated special effects. (Avatar's special effects may seem cutting edge now but CGI is still in its infancy. IMV, I found them lame and unrealistic and this may explain why the movie did not impress me.)

Star Wars remains very entertaining even though the special effects are at this point highly passe. Terrific pacing.

That's kind of my point but while I never liked Star Wars much, I have to admit that its plot and characters (even the robots) are a quantum leap above Avatar.

In 1977 Star Wars didn't win "Best Picture" and Annie Hall did. 33 years later, Star Wars is not just known by just about everyone, it's pretty much part of our culture, while Annie Hall is ... something my grandparents' generation liked.

I think the Academy gave Woody Allen the award as recognition of his talent. He has been making movies ever since and I would argue that his body of work (like Billy Wilder's) will long out live James Cameron's. BTW, I just saw Annie Hall recently and it's as dated as The Apartment or a novel by Balzac.

----

In the OP, I was making the argument that the factors determining the success of movies are increasingly changing. First, Internet downloading has and will take a bigger bite. Second, home cinemas change how people watch movies. Third, there are newer forms of entertainment. The critical point is people how identify a "good" movie differently.

IMHO, rather than being a precursor, Avatar is the dying breath of an old scheme. It employed higher ticket prices, a single worldwide release and 3D glasses. These are standard (even desperate) marketing techniques.

Then again, there will always be a market of 14 year old Hongkong boys who want to see car crashes and stuff getting blown up.

This video makes a separate but equally valid point:

Edited February 3, 2010 by August1991

[wyly]

And in 20 years, what are you going to have? A movie with very dated special effects. (Avatar's special effects may seem cutting edge now but CGI is still in its infancy. IMV, I found them lame and unrealistic and this may explain why the movie did not impress me.)

this is the movie that you predicted would flop because it was so bad has grossed over 2 billion and will pass Titanic...so your judgement is questionable in regards to movies...

[Gabriel]

Star Wars remains very entertaining even though the special effects are at this point highly passe. Terrific pacing. One of the most memorable musical scores in movie history. I'm not sure Darth Vader can be called a "special effect", but he's one of the iconic movie characters of all time. The same for Han Solo to a lesser degree.

And some of the best scenes were memorable not just because of special effects, but because of the creative use of them. It's certainly not the first movie to have model spaceships flying around in front of cameras... but the opening scene, where the Rebel ship streaks by and then the Imperial destroyer rolls over and completely engulfs the screen, was really memorable.

In 1977 Star Wars didn't win "Best Picture" and Annie Hall did. 33 years later, Star Wars is not just known by just about everyone, it's pretty much part of our culture, while Annie Hall is ... something my grandparents' generation liked.

It will be interesting to see what people will think of Avatar in 33 years.

-k

Well said. I don't think Avatar is gonna be remembered beyond its commercial success.

August1991 - That video was hilarious and SO true, thanks for posting it.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Gabriel

[ToadBrother]

Star Wars remains very entertaining even though the special effects are at this point highly passe. Terrific pacing. One of the most memorable musical scores in movie history. I'm not sure Darth Vader can be called a "special effect", but he's one of the iconic movie characters of all time. The same for Han Solo to a lesser degree.

And some of the best scenes were memorable not just because of special effects, but because of the creative use of them. It's certainly not the first movie to have model spaceships flying around in front of cameras... but the opening scene, where the Rebel ship streaks by and then the Imperial destroyer rolls over and completely engulfs the screen, was really memorable.

Still, it goes without saying, the best movie of the entire series was The Empire Strikes Back, with the stronger story elements, far better acting, and Lucas being much more distant from the day-to-day process. I find watching the first one (okay Episode IV all you fanboys) to be considerably less enjoyable than I once did. The second one was the best in storyline, and the third one had the best emotional arc to it. I won't talk about the prequels.

In 1977 Star Wars didn't win "Best Picture" and Annie Hall did.

Annie Hall is a pretty damned good movie, too. The sex scene between Allen and Keaton is still one of the funniest things ever put to film.

33 years later, Star Wars is not just known by just about everyone, it's pretty much part of our culture, while Annie Hall is ... something my grandparents' generation liked.

I agree it will be remembered, though considerable weight has to be given to the success of the Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.

It will be interesting to see what people will think of Avatar in 33 years.

By the sounds of it Cameron is planning his own trilogy, and if he can pull off the same attendance numbers that this one got, I think Avatar will very well take its place at the table of movies of legend.

[ToadBrother]

Well said. I don't think Avatar is gonna be remembered beyond its commercial success.

Which is what people said about Titanic. Every single prediction made about Avatar claiming it was going to be a fantastical flop has turned out to be wrong, and now that it's a vast success, we've got folks like you going "oh, it ain't that great, no one will care in a year".

I guarantee you, if he can pull a couple of billion dollars per film for the planned sequels, they'll be talking about Avatar in thirty years just like they still talk about Star Wars and Jaws.

[GostHacked]

Which is what people said about Titanic. Every single prediction made about Avatar claiming it was going to be a fantastical flop has turned out to be wrong, and now that it's a vast success, we've got folks like you going "oh, it ain't that great, no one will care in a year".

I guarantee you, if he can pull a couple of billion dollars per film for the planned sequels, they'll be talking about Avatar in thirty years just like they still talk about Star Wars and Jaws.

Star Wars has much going for it years later. You'd be surprised how many Star Wars quotes you hear/see in your day and you don't realise it. Almost everyone I know has some star wars related paraphenalia in their house. I am still one of the few who have not yet seen Avatar.

Just immitating Vader's breathing sends geeks running for cover under their star wars bed sheets (had those when I was a kid). I will also admit to collecting the Star Wars Lego models, amd also admit I spent way to freakin much on it. Combine two of my fave childhood things and you have a winner !!!

I may be single, I may be close to 40, but, thing is I don't live in my parents basement.<rimshot></rimshot>

[bush_cheney2004]

...I guarantee you, if he can pull a couple of billion dollars per film for the planned sequels, they'll be talking about Avatar in thirty years just like they still talk about Star Wars and Jaws.

.....maybe, but I remember long lines that wrapped around the block for Jaws and Star Wars . No over-the top hype was needed. Animated Blue Smurfs came in 1981...long before Avatar!

[ToadBrother]

.....maybe, but I remember long lines that wrapped around the block for Jaws and Star Wars . No over-the top hype was needed. Animated Blue Smurfs came in 1981...long before Avatar!

No hype? Jaws was massively hyped (had to be, Spielberg went wayyyy over budget), and Star Wars, come on, it was probably the earliest example of a massive toy marketing campaign to promote a movie. I know, I had Luke, Obiwan, Darth Vader, Chewbacca, R2D2 and C3PO (Leia too, but somehow that went missing fairly quickly). I mean, they televised an orchestra playing Star Wars with people coming out in costume, not to mention the now infamous Star Wars Christmas Special (with Wookie porn).

[bush_cheney2004]

No hype? Jaws was massively hyped (had to be, Spielberg went wayyyy over budget), and Star Wars, come on, it was probably the earliest example of a massive toy marketing campaign to promote a movie.

No over-the-top hype is what I posted...those films found their way into other media like SNL. Still waiting for the first Avatar smurfs to show up.

[kimmy]

Still, it goes without saying, the best movie of the entire series was The Empire Strikes Back, with the stronger story elements, far better acting, and Lucas being much more distant from the day-to-day process. I find watching the first one (okay Episode IV all you fanboys) to be considerably less enjoyable than I once did. The second one was the best in storyline, and the third one had the best emotional arc to it. I won't talk about the prequels.

My main point was that people who attribute the success of Star Wars to special effects are missing a large piece of the puzzle.

Iconic characters.

A mythology that appealed to people.

Strange creatures and technology that captured people's imaginations.

An alternate reality that appealed to people's sense of escapism.

Special effects might have played a role in bringing some of that stuff to the screen, but the real reason it was such a success is the creativity that went into building a universe that appealed to so many people.

Annie Hall is a pretty damned good movie, too. The sex scene between Allen and Keaton is still one of the funniest things ever put to film.

(shrug)

If I met somebody as annoying and whiny as Woody Allen's character in his movies (does he play the same character in every movie?) in real life, I'd probably break his jaw to get him to shut up.

I've always suspected that his target audience is self-styled intellectuals who pat themselves on the back for being sophisticated enough to appreciate Woody Allen (and other stuff that the proles just can't stand).

I don't know anybody who's seen Annie Hall. I don't know anybody who'd watch a Woody Allen movie on purpose. Nobody my age likes him.

But that's just my take on it; I may be as out to lunch as August.

-k

[GostHacked]

No over-the-top hype is what I posted...those films found their way into other media like SNL. Still waiting for the first Avatar smurfs to show up.

Star Wars has had 30 years to get to this stage. Avatar is still in it's diapers. Give it time. It already is the best grossing movie of all time, and it has not hit video yet.

Star Wars was also campy. Avatar seems to try to be serious (can't say have not seen the movie).

[bush_cheney2004]

Star Wars has had 30 years to get to this stage. Avatar is still in it's diapers. Give it time. It already is the best grossing movie of all time, and it has not hit video yet.

Avatar is doing well, but it is not the highest grossing film of all time based on inflation adjusted dollars. It might be someday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films_in_Canada_and_the_United_States

Edited February 4, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[DrGreenthumb]

Avatar is the best movie I have ever seen, and I am a HUGE Star Wars fan(original trilogy). I have to admit though that empire strikes back was my least favorite of the original three.

Everyone who I know that has seen Avatar loved it, including my 85 year old grandmother, my parents, their friends, my 7 year old daughter etc..

I also agree with kimmy about woody allen. Nobody I know would watch a woody allen film unless they were paid.....a lot. Woody Allen is the worst kind of torture.

[bloodyminded]

Avatar is the best movie I have ever seen, and I am a HUGE Star Wars fan(original trilogy). I have to admit though that empire strikes back was my least favorite of the original three.

Dr. Greenthumb, my man, you might be the first person I've ever heard to hold that opinion.

[whowhere]

Dr. Greenthumb, my man, you might be the first person I've ever heard to hold that opinion.

I have just seen the movie. The new technology awesome. Can't wait for a video game console to bring this to video games. The story come on, makes no sense and the story was hokey. The movie was engaging because the 3d experience is engaging. At times when he was flying the whatever, my heart raced as if I was on a roller coaster! Looking forward to more 3d movies. Best movie ever? Right.. He need's to watch more movies.

[bloodyminded]

I have just seen the movie. The new technology awesome. Can't wait for a video game console to bring this to video games. The story come on, makes no sense and the story was hokey. The movie was engaging because the 3d experience is engaging. At times when he was flying the whatever, my heart raced as if I was on a roller coaster! Looking forward to more 3d movies. Best movie ever? Right.. He need's to watch more movies.

This isn't what I meant (my fault, as I should have edited his quote to make it clear to what I was responding). I haven't seen Avatar, so I can't say how good it is.

No, i was referring to his opinion that The Empire Strikes Back was the worst of the Star Wars films.

[Michael Hardner]

I finally saw Avatar, and while it's great for the genre - it is not a must see if you're not a fan of comic-book type science fiction. Go ahead and see it, though, for some fun or to see what the buzz is about.

I did regret not seeing it in full Imax 3D but other than that James Cameron's usual hokum kept me chomping my popcorn for the full 3 hours.

I don't like these types of movies winning Best Picture, though. Maybe a handful of such films deserved norminations: Star Wars, the best early Disney films, Jaws.

Also, FVI the video game got bad reviews.

[Smallc]

I finally saw Avatar, and while it's great for the genre - it is not a must see if you're not a fan of comic-book type science fiction. Go ahead and see it, though, for some fun or to see what the buzz is about.

I totally disagree. I know people that went who hats science fiction, and they loved the movie.

[DrGreenthumb]

The xbox360 version of Avatar released before the movie did.

[Michael Hardner]

I totally disagree. I know people that went who hats science fiction, and they loved the movie.

Maybe so, but it's style that comic-book style of narrative - fantastic, with cardboard characters. It's more of a marvel and spectacle than a movie that provides a deep experience.

[Natchuck]

Naked blue people with tails. That pretty much sums up Avatar.

[kimmy]

Maclean's magazine had an article that expressed what I think was the real secret to this movie's success.

It looks like the movie about blue aliens by that brash Canadian from Niagara Falls is poised to become the top-grossing picture of all time. (...) Which begs the question: why? Everyone seems to agree that the story is corny, its message is naive, and its cliché of the noble savage is retrograde. Friends of mine who have no desire to see Avatar keep asking, why is it so huge? Is it just a massive feat of marketing?

No, it’s the magic, stupid.

Love it or hate it, Avatar boldly goes where no movie has gone before. Some of the film’s harshest critics have even confessed they would see it again—just for the 3-D experience of being so deeply inside a movie. Then there are those who swear they’ll never see it, as if on principle. They dismiss it as just another escalation in the Hollywood blitzkrieg of special effects, a victory of digital artillery over human emotion. I would argue the opposite. (...) what’s revolutionary about Cameron’s film is not its firepower. The real feat is how it uses cutting-edge technology to bring back a kind of old-fashioned movie magic.

Despite the guns and spears that occasionally poke through the fourth wall, what has Avatar audiences spellbound is not the frontal assault of 3-D, but the enchantment of being drawn into a world that softly envelops the senses.

Like many other immensely successful movies, Avatar appealed to escapism.

-k

[August1991]

Like many other immensely successful movies, Avatar appealed to escapism.

-k

Escapism? From what universe?

From Maclean's link above:

I went back to see Avatar a second time, and was struck that the 3-D was most effective when the action slowed to a virtual standstill. There’s a scene in Pandora’s bioluminescent forest where jellyfish-like spores from the moon’s sacred tree float down to tickle the blue limbs of the story’s avatar hero. Which sounds ridiculous on the page. But it’s a Tinker Bell moment of transcendent beauty.

Sorry, I saw none of this.

Instead, I saw crappy visuals that were clearly computer generated. They were not real. The 3D glasses did not extend to the characters since they were one dimensional. I found the story line Hollywood hypocritical - "Rich corporation/people make movie criticizing rich corporations". I didn't buy into the absurd premise of shaking hands/tails or transcendental thought transfer. In short, I thought that Avatar was stupid.

[With that said, I liked Titanic - but think Cameron should have hired a better editor.]

----

So, what explains Avatar's commercial success? IMV, it was marketing. The idea to raise ticket prices was genius. The 3D glasses helped.

In 50 years, people will rent "Witness for the Prosecution", "Rebecca" or "It's a Wonderful Life" to watch with their kids. Avatar will be just another King Kong, Gorgon or Poseidon Adventure. Comical, and known as a blockbuster in its time.

Edited April 19, 2010 by August1991