More Islamic extremist Activity!

[wulf42]

wulf,

Firstly, it's having the "gall" to say, not "gull".

Secondly, you have again shown that you shouldn't be on a discussion board because you don't read my explanations. If you read them and didn't understand them you would at least come back with questions. But you haven't done so, and therefore proven your ignorance.

Also, please take the time to read your posts before posting, they're very hard to read.

Thanks.

Then learn to read! nobody else has a problem...i hear "hooked on Phonics" has a good program...

Edited November 2, 2009 by wulf42

[wulf42]

First of all theres no such thing as a "religion of peace". Religious people have a "follower mentality" that often makes allows them to be lead down the wrong paths by the wrong people, but this is true of all religions.

But other religions don t make the daily news!

[dre]

But other religions don t make the daily news!

Thats because terrorism is the flavor of the month and thats what gets ratings right now.

Step back, and look at ALL of the killing and violence going on. Hundreds of thousands of dead in Iraq. Ethnic cleansing and genocide in Darfur, Serbia, and various other places.

Seems like killin the fuck out of other people isnt the proprietary domain of any group of theists.

[Michael Hardner]

Based on the observation that the mafia causes a lot of violence, I think we need to stop Catholic immigrants from coming to North America, and deport all Italian-Americans and Italian-Canadians (including me) to Italy.

[M.Dancer]

and stoning is a muslim thing...

There were no muslims when ST Stephen was made a martyr

[Argus]

Argus,

Evidently it takes a lot of time. We're all bright enough here and we haven't been convinced that a particular religion causes violence yet.

Except those engaged in willful self-delusion then.

And all you people flinging quotes from the Koran and Bible back and forth may cease. I'm perfectly willing to admit there is barbarism contained in both religious texts. The difference is that in 2009 the number of Christians who continue to take those words as a literal command and use it as the basis or excuse for commiting violence are a miniscule fraction of that in the Muslim community.

[dre]

Based on the observation that the mafia causes a lot of violence, I think we need to stop Catholic immigrants from coming to North America, and deport all Italian-Americans and Italian-Canadians (including me) to Italy.

Yup. And since I see lots of stories in the news about Catholic priests raping little kids, clearly Chistianity MUST be the Religion of Child Rape

[dre]

Except those engaged in willful self-delusion then.

And all you people flinging quotes from the Koran and Bible back and forth may cease. I'm perfectly willing to admit there is barbarism contained in both religious texts. The difference is that in 2009 the number of Christians who continue to take those words as a literal command and use it as the basis or excuse for commiting violence are a miniscule fraction of that in the Muslim community.

I dunno... George Bush said that god told him to invade Iraq, and Afghanstistan, with his mostly Christian army complete with Chaplins, preists etc. And Christians supported those acts of violence in much higher numbers than other denominations. Just about every act of violence is wrapped in religious rhetoric, and has been for a long long time.

The question is... Is religion the underlying cause of these events? Or do the perpetrators of these events merely exploit the "follower mentality" to enable them...

If OBL lived in an area that predominantly subscibed to some other relgion my guess is he would wrap his message with the matching brand of religious rhetoric, but his actions would still be the same.

I think these people exploit religion for their own personal ends in much the same way a televangelist uses religion to steal money.

Edited November 2, 2009 by dre

[Michael Hardner]

Argus,

The difference is that in 2009 the number of Christians who continue to take those words as a literal command and use it as the basis or excuse for commiting violence are a miniscule fraction of that in the Muslim community.

So then what causes the religion to be violent ? Their books are the same as Christian books, and you contend the people are not the same as Christians. What do you think is the cause then ?

[dre]

Argus,

So then what causes the religion to be violent ? Their books are the same as Christian books, and you contend the people are not the same as Christians. What do you think is the cause then ?

There is no singular cause. All the people in the world who inspire violence have their own sets of motives, their own beefs, and their own issues. They just wrap these things in religious rhetoric because its an effective way of getting other people to support their causes.

[Michael Hardner]

dre,

There is no singular cause. All the people in the world who inspire violence have their own sets of motives, their own beefs, and their own issues. They just wrap these things in religious rhetoric because its an effective way of getting other people to support their causes.

I don't need to know for myself - this is an effort to understand how Argus sees things. My belief is that such things are cultural in nature and as such inextricable from surrounding factors.

The problem I have with the Muslim=bad crowd (and I'm not talking about Argus here necessarily) is that they can't be pinned down to explain what exactly about Islam that is the problem, yet they're sure that religion IS the problem. They will, at times, point to the texts as the source of the troubles but other times not. If it's the text, then the question about other religions' texts needs to be answered. But if the Muslim=bad people start allowing the problem to be framed as cultural, then they start to realize they're in trouble and they become evasive.

[JB Globe]

Takes no time at all. It's bloody obvious to anyone with more than half a brain.

If you wanted me to ignore you all you had to do was ask.

No need to get frisky.

[GostHacked]

Based on the observation that the mafia causes a lot of violence, I think we need to stop Catholic immigrants from coming to North America, and deport all Italian-Americans and Italian-Canadians (including me) to Italy.

Incomming Oleg-like post!

Could be just a sterotype, but this Italian family has owned both nudie bars where I grew up. I went to school with one of the sons that now runs the business. He was a little bit of a coke head in high school. I had the chance to talk to him a couple years back when I was in town and hit the nudie bar with some friends. He seems really out of it now. One of the friends I was with I was with is a cop. Also Italian. But there you go.

[JB Globe]

I should mention I was hoping someone would have focused more on when I mentioned "making Islamists irrelevant" rather than my statement that Islam is as capable, and has as deep a history of violence as Christianity.

I'm willing to be proven wrong, but since the "Islam is evil" crowd spends 95% of the time tar and feathering Islam, and a minority of the time talking about solving the problem of Islamic terrorism, it's caused me to believe that this professed concern for "Western security and interests" is really just a guise - and that all this effort is really just about cultivating a global crusade against Islam, which has become in their eyes the pre-eminent bogeyman-other in the world today.

After all, that IS the endgame of the "Islam is evil" argument - since there's no way a mass conversion of people from Islam to something else (Christianity) is going to happen, a global military crusade is the only answer, and racist domestic policies against Muslim citizens of Western nations would be needed as well in this clash of civilizations.

Of course, there are ways to neuter Islamists without plunging the world into a devastating conflict that would destroy the global economy and may not even come to a conclusion after centuries of war: you fight on your terms, not theirs: don't let them draw you into places you have no business being in (Iraq) and over-extending your resources, don't let them out-aid you (they build 1 school, you build 100), co-opt the rational legitimate concerns they use in an attempt to justify their illegitimate means to common folks (ie - the many nationalist struggles that Islamists try and fit into their agenda), completely ignore their metaphysical concerns - you can't win a cosmic war in this world, force countries to democratize - even if it means less-than-desirable groups come to power - democracy has a moderating influence on radical groups . . . etc.

Frankly, I think any of the above is a far more productive, rational, and realistic policy than the whole "let's go to war with 1.5 billion people" argument - or even the forced deportation and disengagement proposal.

[Argus]

dre,

I don't need to know for myself - this is an effort to understand how Argus sees things. My belief is that such things are cultural in nature and as such inextricable from surrounding factors.

If by "cultural" you mean based on the culture of certain nations you need to explain why terrorist groups calling themselve "Islamist" have sprung up in almost every Muslim nation, not just those in the Middle East. There are such groups in the Phillipines, in Indonesia, and of course, throughout the middle east and Pakistan. Then too, we have homegrown groups like the Toronto 18, or similar types in the UK and US, made up of people born and raised in those countries, yet still willing to commit acts of extreme violence in the name of Islam.

[Argus]

Of course, there are ways to neuter Islamists without plunging the world into a devastating conflict that would destroy the global economy and may not even come to a conclusion after centuries of war: you fight on your terms, not theirs: don't let them draw you into places you have no business being in (Iraq)

Translation: If they blow something up in your country, just smile and blow kisses. If they threaten your oil supply, just smile and blow kisses. If they want to develop nuclear or biological weapons, just let them, because that is their right.

don't let them out-aid you (they build 1 school, you build 100)

Translation. Bribe them to like us. And don't be pikers. Spend tens of billions if necessary.

co-opt the rational legitimate concerns they use in an attempt to justify their illegitimate means to common folks (ie - the many nationalist struggles that Islamists try and fit into their agenda),

Translation: If they hate their governments, we must hate them too. We must do nothing to hinder Islamists from taking power - the model being Jimmy Carter persuading the Shaw to not fight and to surrender power to that nice religious guy Kohomeni. Then the resulting government will love us - just like Khomeni loved the Americans. Oh, and no more allowing a free media to make fun of Muhammed or say anything unflattering about Islam.

All in all, a recipe of cowardice, surrendering, and bowing before Islamists. Not something unexpected from this source.

[Army Guy]

So then what causes the religion to be violent ? Their books are the same as Christian books, and you contend the people are not the same as Christians. What do you think is the cause then ?

Islam is not just a religion, but a way of life...and when it is presented by people in a postion of trust such as iman, governments, etc etc ....who's interputation is violent then the religion and it's followers becomes violent... add to that lack of education in some areas, blind faith, local conditions,poverity, war, world events...it all boils down to what we see today...

[Michael Hardner]

Argus,

If by "cultural" you mean based on the culture of certain nations you need to explain why terrorist groups calling themselve "Islamist" have sprung up in almost every Muslim nation, not just those in the Middle East. There are such groups in the Phillipines, in Indonesia, and of course, throughout the middle east and Pakistan. Then too, we have homegrown groups like the Toronto 18, or similar types in the UK and US, made up of people born and raised in those countries, yet still willing to commit acts of extreme violence in the name of Islam.

I would ask what those countries have in common. And we do have homegrown groups that are populated by fringe groups that receive support from outside the country. There's no mass support for Islamist causes here that I can see.

That's not to say there's no link - of course there is. But we have to frame the problem as it is if we want to address it.

[Michael Hardner]

Army Guy

Islam is not just a religion, but a way of life...and when it is presented by people in a postion of trust such as iman, governments, etc etc ....who's interputation is violent then the religion and it's followers becomes violent... add to that lack of education in some areas, blind faith, local conditions,poverity, war, world events...it all boils down to what we see today...

Imam, Governments, etc. - again you're talking about "some areas", which is tied to culture.

What's the endgame as JB Globe referred to it ? Expulsion ? Quarantine ? Often when I ask those who post opinions such as yours, I find out that their only desire is to have people acknowledge that Islamist movements are proponents of violence. If that's the case, I concur.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Michael Hardner

[Army Guy]

Imam, Governments, etc. - again you're talking about "some areas", which is tied to culture.

Some of these "areas" span entire countries, and these people of trust or postions of power influence millions, in these countries religion makes up a huge part of thier culture and who they are...which can be changed slightly but over generations.

What's the endgame as JB Globe referred to it ? Expulsion ? Quarantine ? Often when I ask those who post opinions such as yours, I find out that their only desire is to have people acknowledge that Islamist movements are proponents of violence. If that's the case, I concur.

Both, Islam and christianity have been clashing since the beginning of time, and as islam develpoes into a more radical religion, and christianity is developing into the opposite direction they are bound to clash more often...In the since of todays communication, travel, media, etc etc small events that may not have had any impact on a global basis are effecting everyone now on both sides of the fence, Muslim and Christians, which seem to validate our growing concerns, doubts, and anger towards each other...

What is the solution, the end state, other than global war...there is none that could be or would be effective..I mean explusion, Quantine, would all just bred more resentment,more anger....every solution that has been tried todate has failed, including war.... back to square one So like a circil what is it we do ?

[Michael Hardner]

Army,

Some of these "areas" span entire countries, and these people of trust or postions of power influence millions, in these countries religion makes up a huge part of thier culture and who they are...which can be changed slightly but over generations.

Agreed.

Both, Islam and christianity have been clashing since the beginning of time, and as islam develpoes into a more radical religion, and christianity is developing into the opposite direction they are bound to clash more often...In the since of todays communication, travel, media, etc etc small events that may not have had any impact on a global basis are effecting everyone now on both sides of the fence, Muslim and Christians, which seem to validate our growing concerns, doubts, and anger towards each other...

What is the solution, the end state, other than global war...there is none that could be or would be effective..I mean explusion, Quantine, would all just bred more resentment,more anger....every solution that has been tried todate has failed, including war.... back to square one So like a circil what is it we do ?

How is Islam developing into a more radical religion ?

"In the since of todays communication, travel, media, etc etc small events that may not have had any impact on a global basis are effecting everyone now on both sides of the fence, Muslim and Christians, which seem to validate our growing concerns, doubts, and anger towards each other..."

The Crusades seem to mark a high point of this clash you mention. The cultures are being brought together again because the world is getting smaller. This time, however, there won't be a frontier between the religions.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Michael Hardner

[DogOnPorch]

How is Islam developing into a more radical religion ?

It goes 'tick tick tick tick tick' then BOOM!

Reward: 72 virgins...or so.

Edited November 5, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[JB Globe]

Both, Islam and christianity have been clashing since the beginning of time,

So have Judaism and Christianity. In fact, this clashing only really stopped 60 years ago. Now look at today's situation - the idea that Jews and Christians would be at each other's throats for eternity seems completely foreign. It's a good situation, it's just terrible that it took the Holocaust to get here - Christians needed to see the endgame of antisemitism with their own eyes. They needed understand that in the end antisemitism, like other forms of hatred, transforms you into an inhuman monster if it's left to run wild.

People should have known better then, but they have absolutely no excuse now, if they're honest with themselves, they know where the new antisemitism - Islamophobia, will lead them.

and as islam develpoes into a more radical religion,

The upheaval you're seeing in Muslim nations is not a result of Islam itself becoming more radical, but rather because Islamists (aka - those who don't believe in separating politics and religion) have co-opted many of the political desires of Muslims in many nations. Mostly those desires are for more justice and freedom, things which are denied to them by dictators and corrupt regimes & systems - many of which the West gives aid to.

There is a danger of radicalizing the religion itself if this becomes commonplace. Thus if one is committed to promoting democracy and combating radicalization, they would take away the fuel for the fire: we would stop supporting the dictators and regimes which make Islamist leaders the only alternative for many people who have no voice in how their countries are run. ie - tell Mubarak in Egypt to democratize, or else we cut his aid completely. With this you kill two birds with one stone - you give people the chance to rally around political parties (which are no longer banned/neutered) and you cut the link between the West and the dictator most Egyptians despise.

Like I said earlier - you co-opt the legit, rational concerns that people in Muslim-majority countries have so that Islamist groups can't use them to justify their illegitimate actions.

Of course, as I've said before, this strategy avoids the need for mass-conflict with the Muslim world, (which would be catastrophic for the West, and even if it were possible to "win" - our societies would be in shambles even if we did) - I believe that some people, not saying you in particular, could care less about what's best for Canada or the West, but rather are so consumed by the same kind of hatred that consumed the nazis that they would PREFER a massive global genocide campaign.

What is the solution, the end state, other than global war...there is none that could be or would be effective..I mean explusion, Quantine, would all just bred more resentment,more anger....every solution that has been tried todate has failed, including war.... back to square one So like a circil what is it we do ?

Well, you say that's the endgame, but let me ask you this - do you believe it's even possible to "win" a global war against a religion of $1.5 billion people? Especially since Muslim majority nations are the source of most of the world's energy supplies? And even if it were possible to "defeat" a religion, human civilization would be nearly destroyed by this conflict.

Edited November 5, 2009 by JB Globe

[Army Guy]

How is Islam developing into a more radical religion ?

As it has already been stated, alot "NOT" all of these muslim countries are poor by western standards, perhaps it is thier way of coping with todays modern world, that is changing every day, These countries do not want change, and that is reflected in thier religious teachings or as we discussed thier interputation of thier religion to suit the times and thier needs....keeping in mind that most of these countries have adapted religion in with thier governmental controls over the people...

That and the fact that the western world is seen as the enemy for serveral thousands of reasons, our medling in thier affairs, our stance with Israel, our wealth, our power over the global economy, and world events....it all adds up..without the means to solve these or counter these problems they turn to. Both sides are not about to chnage in the near future, and clashes are going to become more frequent.

[Army Guy]

So have Judaism and Christianity. In fact, this clashing only really stopped 60 years ago. Now look at today's situation - the idea that Jews and Christians would be at each other's throats for eternity seems completely foreign. It's a good situation, it's just terrible that it took the Holocaust to get here - Christians needed to see the endgame of antisemitism with their own eyes. They needed understand that in the end antisemitism, like other forms of hatred, transforms you into an inhuman monster if it's left to run wild.

People should have known better then, but they have absolutely no excuse now, if they're honest with themselves, they know where the new antisemitism - Islamophobia, will lead them.

Right now your are looking at this for one side on the fence "OURS", and while we do deserve our share of the blame for this problem, it is a 2 sided street. I presently don't see a western nation capable of a Holocaust type event or crime do you....Awhile we will probable not share the same bed or house for some time i don't see muslims being rounded up here in America and shipped off to camps...

I also would not class this Islamophobia as hate either, very concerned yes, maybe even dislike, but hate NO...

The upheaval you're seeing in Muslim nations is not a result of Islam itself becoming more radical, but rather because Islamists (aka - those who don't believe in separating politics and religion) have co-opted many of the political desires of Muslims in many nations. Mostly those desires are for more justice and freedom, things which are denied to them by dictators and corrupt regimes & systems - many of which the West gives aid to.

I disagree, Those Muslim countries that are radical or becoming radical are not doing it for more freedoms, but rather to surpress those that do want those freedoms, ...And they are using religion to control thier populations...Such as the Taliban, Iran, Syria, the list goes on....and i'm sure that if you peeled the layers of control away, we might just find that is is the religion that controls the nation, not the government or dictactor, etc etc......Iran a prefect example...

There is a danger of radicalizing the religion itself if this becomes commonplace. Thus if one is committed to promoting democracy and combating radicalization, they would take away the fuel for the fire: we would stop supporting the dictators and regimes which make Islamist leaders the only alternative for many people who have no voice in how their countries are run. ie - tell Mubarak in Egypt to democratize, or else we cut his aid completely. With this you kill two birds with one stone - you give people the chance to rally around political parties (which are no longer banned/neutered) and you cut the link between the West and the dictator most Egyptians despise.

The west supports and gives aid to most of the Middle east, and most muslim countries...those not supported by the west get thier aid or assistance from others such as Russia or China...Threaten to cut this aid would only see them making a deal else where, and becoming even more hostile towards the west....

Last time i checked Egypt was a democractic country,

Of course, as I've said before, this strategy avoids the need for mass-conflict with the Muslim world, (which would be catastrophic for the West, and even if it were possible to "win" - our societies would be in shambles even if we did) - I believe that some people, not saying you in particular, could care less about what's best for Canada or the West, but rather are so consumed by the same kind of hatred that consumed the nazis that they would PREFER a massive global genocide campaign.

Your staraegy is flawed, these approaches have been tried, and very few have amount to anything with good results, Egypt might fit into that catagory...I think there may be alot of dislike out there for Muslims, but i know we are away off before we start rounding them up for camps....

Well, you say that's the endgame, but let me ask you this - do you believe it's even possible to "win" a global war against a religion of $1.5 billion people? Especially since Muslim majority nations are the source of most of the world's energy supplies? And even if it were possible to "defeat" a religion, human civilization would be nearly destroyed by this conflict.

Actually i said we've tried everything, and i did not know the solution...Anything is possiable, If western nations could defeat an entire army of Iraq in weeks , can you imagine if NATO decided to get serious with a total deployment.