Federal prison overhaul plan

[Jerry J. Fortin]

We don't need to change the world. Just our little corner. It will take a groundswell of participation to do it, but eventually it will happen. Within the next two decades the world will have morphed into a resource based economy. Production will take a second row seat to resources, and much production will become automated. That is how we will be able to survive in competition with cheap labour. This is the direction of the future and our leaders need to understand it. To return to the topic at hand, our cheap source of labour between now and then can be found in the penal system.

[DrGreenthumb]

We don't need to change the world. Just our little corner. It will take a groundswell of participation to do it, but eventually it will happen. Within the next two decades the world will have morphed into a resource based economy. Production will take a second row seat to resources, and much production will become automated. That is how we will be able to survive in competition with cheap labour. This is the direction of the future and our leaders need to understand it. To return to the topic at hand, our cheap source of labour between now and then can be found in the penal system.

You are advocating slavery. In a system where we allow the government to jail non-violent resisters to unjust laws, I would never support forced labour. Are you going to slave out the pot people to corporations for cheap labour and allow them to avoid paying a fair wage to Canadian workers?

I am in favour of restoritive justice, in other words forcing offenders to pay back the victim(society) for costs that they have caused. When victimless acts are made crimes however, the "offender" has harmed nobody by their actions and owes nothing to any victim or society.

To those that argue that people don't really go to jail for possession or growing a"couple of plants", what the hell do you think that c-15 intends to change? The Conservatives WANT people to start going to jail more regularly for minor cultivation and possession offences and that is why they want c-15 to pass the senate. The sentences are mandaTORY so that judges cannot decide that these people are not a threat and do not belong in jail. This new law does not even make any exceptions for unliscenced Cancer patients, epileptics and other medical users.

[noahbody]

To those that argue that people don't really go to jail for possession or growing a"couple of plants", what the hell do you think that c-15 intends to change? The Conservatives WANT people to start going to jail more regularly for minor cultivation and possession offences and that is why they want c-15 to pass the senate. The sentences are mandaTORY so that judges cannot decide that these people are not a threat and do not belong in jail. This new law does not even make any exceptions for unliscenced Cancer patients, epileptics and other medical users.

Can you do me a favour and actually read the bill? Staying uninformed isn't mandaTORY.

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/Sites/LOP/LEGISINFO...&Language=e

[Wilber]

Can you do me a favour and actually read the bill? Staying uninformed isn't mandaTORY.

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/Sites/LOP/LEGISINFO...&Language=e

Good luck, it has been suggested before.

[myata]

What's so difficult about having a common sense parole system.....let the good guys out, keep the bad guys in. How many times do you have to go to prison before you lose your right to get out early?

How do we know that this, present one, is broken though? Every times there's an incident of reoffence, the wail goes all the way up to the sky. But have we seen much of reliable, confirmed stats on reoffence rates, how many of these incidents out of thousands of paroled inmates?

Or would you want one that works perfectly, like your nailing that nail in the wall 1000 times out of thousand?

No, I'm not at all for leniency on principle. Rather, policies and approaches that actually work to prevent and reduce incidence and severity of crime. Not ideological theories.

At every step up the criminal ladder there should be a barrier to keep as many individuals as possible from crossing it. That can be the way to reduce crime. Dropping everybody to swim on their own, handing a gun in each hand - virtually failsafe recipe to have more of it, no matter penalties.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

You are advocating slavery. In a system where we allow the government to jail non-violent resisters to unjust laws, I would never support forced labour. Are you going to slave out the pot people to corporations for cheap labour and allow them to avoid paying a fair wage to Canadian workers?

I am in favour of restoritive justice, in other words forcing offenders to pay back the victim(society) for costs that they have caused. When victimless acts are made crimes however, the "offender" has harmed nobody by their actions and owes nothing to any victim or society.

To those that argue that people don't really go to jail for possession or growing a"couple of plants", what the hell do you think that c-15 intends to change? The Conservatives WANT people to start going to jail more regularly for minor cultivation and possession offences and that is why they want c-15 to pass the senate. The sentences are mandaTORY so that judges cannot decide that these people are not a threat and do not belong in jail. This new law does not even make any exceptions for unliscenced Cancer patients, epileptics and other medical users.

I am advocating slavery? Really? I thought I was advocating putting criminals to work to pay for their crimes. I certainly don;t think that convicted felons need swimming pools and exercise rooms or any manner of the expensive luxury items on their good behavior list that far too many law abiding citizens can't afford. In addition these felons get three squares a day, don't do their own laundry, their own cooking or have to go to work to pay for it all! The bleeding hearts club should volunteer to pay for these felons out of their own pockets, then release them all into their own neighborhoods to the detriment of their own childrens safety.

[eyeball]

Can you do me a favour and actually read the bill? Staying uninformed isn't mandaTORY.

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/Sites/LOP/LEGISINFO...&Language=e

The current section 5(3)(a) of the CDSA makes trafficking in a substance included in Schedule I or II an indictable offence. The maximum punishment for this offence is imprisonment for life. This measure reflects the seriousness with which these substances are viewed, particularly the opiates and coca and its derivatives found in Schedule I. One exception is found in section 5(4) of the Act and concerns trafficking in Schedule II substances, mainly cannabis and its derivatives. Should the amount trafficked not exceed the amounts set out in Schedule VII to the Act (3 kg of cannabis resin or cannabis [marihuana]), the maximum possible punishment is imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years less a day.).

Mandatory minimum punishments will also be introduced for the production of cannabis (marihuana), with their length depending upon the number of marihuana plants produced. The term of imprisonment will be at least six months if the number of plants produced is more than 5(61) and fewer than 201 and the production is for the purpose of trafficking.

So is a minimum sentance triggered by weight or the number of plants? Both it would seem. Recall the police reports from my area that each plant they recently confiscated yielded 1 kg of finished product. What's a judge to do when he/she is presented with police evidence of 4 confiscated plants weighing in at as many kilos?

[OddSox]

So is a minimum sentance triggered by weight or the number of plants? Both it would seem. Recall the police reports from my area that each plant they recently confiscated yielded 1 kg of finished product. What's a judge to do when he/she is presented with police evidence of 4 confiscated plants weighing in at as many kilos?

For one thing, it's very rare to get much more than a pound from a single plant - just because the police say something doesn't mean it's true. They also calculate the value of said plant as 1000 grams at $10.00 per gram or some such ridiculous number...

[eyeball]

For one thing, it's very rare to get much more than a pound from a single plant - just because the police say something doesn't mean it's true. They also calculate the value of said plant as 1000 grams at $10.00 per gram or some such ridiculous number...

What's the truth got to do with anything?

There are several criminologists who have told the state that its crime bill will be a waste of time...several leading economists told the state that cutting the GST would be harmful...a multitude of climatologists have repeatedly told the state that...

Bah...what's the point?

[ba1614]

So is a minimum sentance triggered by weight or the number of plants? Both it would seem. Recall the police reports from my area that each plant they recently confiscated yielded 1 kg of finished product. What's a judge to do when he/she is presented with police evidence of 4 confiscated plants weighing in at as many kilos?

I read it(from reading the bill summary linked) that one deals with possession(dried ready to smoke), while the other deals with production(plant in the ground).

Do you have a link where they are claiming they "..yielded 1 kg of finished product"? I could see them saying the whole plant weighed that much, but claiming finished product averaging that much is just outrageous and they need to be called out for that.

[eyeball]

I read it(from reading the bill summary linked) that one deals with possession(dried ready to smoke), while the other deals with production(plant in the ground).

Do you have a link where they are claiming they "..yielded 1 kg of finished product"? I could see them saying the whole plant weighed that much, but claiming finished product averaging that much is just outrageous and they need to be called out for that.

Cst. Ryan Warren said each of the 750 fully matured marijuana plants police destroyed from Sept. 16 to 20 would have produced up to one kilogram (two pounds) of finished product each, so his estimate is conservative.

Story

I don't know what it is about the cops we get around here but their propensity for hyperbole is legend. Recall the story about rape gangs roaming the streets of Tofino? After the story made the local paper the nationals picked it up and following the uproar (the local Chambers of Commerce were not amused by the negative press affecting tourism) the RCMP admitted they made the whole thing up to raise awareness about Extacy or some such thing.

As far as I know the local kids are still told that when they buy pot the money goes straight to Bin Laden via the Hell's Angels.

I've heard my Conservative MP, Dr James Loony, pretty much repeat this shit verbatim at all candidates meetings and the opposition just sits there with nothing to say.

I think the evidence is crystal clear that the substance use laws in the country are based entirely on a heavily moralized ideology without a lick of real scientific medical evidence and this federal prison overhaul plan is no different. Apparently there isn't so much as one liberal activist judge anywhere in this entire bleeding-heart hand-wringing country that is willing to go against this grain. Go figure.

[noahbody]

So is a minimum sentance triggered by weight or the number of plants?

It's triggered by the intent of trafficking.

[eyeball]

It's triggered by the intent of trafficking.

Which is triggered by the amount of pot possessed. I notice the evidence in the case of the story I posted about plants that yielded one kilogram (two pounds) of finished product each, was destroyed. Do judges actually look at or weigh the pot, the evidence so to speak, themselves before its destroyed? I doubt it. If we're to believe that an RCMP's expert testimony in cases like this actually suffices as ample evidence, what's a judge faced with a mandatory sentencing requirement to do?

Fill up the jails or so it would seem.

Edited September 30, 2009 by eyeball

[ba1614]

I don't know what it is about the cops we get around here but their propensity for hyperbole is legend. Recall the story about rape gangs roaming the streets of Tofino? After the story made the local paper the nationals picked it up and following the uproar (the local Chambers of Commerce were not amused by the negative press affecting tourism) the RCMP admitted they made the whole thing up to raise awareness about Extacy or some such thing.

As far as I know the local kids are still told that when they buy pot the money goes straight to Bin Laden via the Hell's Angels.

I've heard my Conservative MP, Dr James Loony, pretty much repeat this shit verbatim at all candidates meetings and the opposition just sits there with nothing to say.

I think the evidence is crystal clear that the substance use laws in the country are based entirely on a heavily moralized ideology without a lick of real scientific medical evidence and this federal prison overhaul plan is no different. Apparently there isn't so much as one liberal activist judge anywhere in this entire bleeding-heart hand-wringing country that is willing to go against this grain. Go figure.

Thanks for the link, that is brutal. A great example of the dishonesty I referred to earlier that exists on all sides of the great pot debate.

They don't realize that telling kids stuff like that is one of the reasons there is less and less respect for the Police everyday. Once the kids are old enough to know better they view them as liars, and don't trust them.

There is enough REAL threats to kids out there that they should be scared of for the Police to concentrate on educating them about.

[Molly]

They don't realize that telling kids stuff like that is one of the reasons there is less and less respect for the Police everyday. Once the kids are old enough to know better they view them as liars, and don't trust them.

Needs to be said twice.

[noahbody]

Which is triggered by the amount of pot possessed.

Intent isn't triggered by amount, unless that amount is over 200 plants.

I notice the evidence in the case of the story I posted about plants that yielded one kilogram (two pounds) of finished product each, was destroyed.

This is no different than the cops confiscating alcohol from underage people. Pot is still illegal so plants will be confiscated. But it is clear that you won't go for prison if you are growing more than a few plants for yourself.

[ToadBrother]

So is a minimum sentance triggered by weight or the number of plants? Both it would seem. Recall the police reports from my area that each plant they recently confiscated yielded 1 kg of finished product. What's a judge to do when he/she is presented with police evidence of 4 confiscated plants weighing in at as many kilos?

I gotta tell you, sometimes when I see the "street value" or weight estimates the cops give on the 6 o'clock news my eyes roll back in my head. I've seen them bust small grow-ops and claim "a million dollars on the street", and anyone who knows anything about cultivation of cannabis knows those estimates are complete bunk. Since the days of Elliot Ness, the vice squads (or whatever they're called in any given time and place) have had this habit of grossly exaggerating their catches.

Whatever else we can say about this debate, the one thing we can say for sure is that cops are not above BSing quantities.

[ToadBrother]

Thanks for the link, that is brutal. A great example of the dishonesty I referred to earlier that exists on all sides of the great pot debate.

They don't realize that telling kids stuff like that is one of the reasons there is less and less respect for the Police everyday. Once the kids are old enough to know better they view them as liars, and don't trust them.

There is enough REAL threats to kids out there that they should be scared of for the Police to concentrate on educating them about.

A lot of this was triggered by the "gateway drug" crapola. Of course, research suggests that it isn't marijuana that's the leading gateway drug, because, at best, any dependency is purely psychological (THC is simply not a very addictive drug). Alcohol, on the other hand, is physically addictive and can be a gateway drug. Mind you, the very concept of gateway drug causes me some trouble because all the evidence I've seen thus far suggests that this is a classic "correlation does not imply causation" fallacy. The logic involved seems sufficiently weak that one could ban milk or potato chips, because, after all, an overwhelming number of heroin and crystal meth addicts have drank large quantities of milk and eaten many bags of potato chips.

[M.Dancer]

I gotta tell you, sometimes when I see the "street value" or weight estimates the cops give on the 6 o'clock news my eyes roll back in my head. I've seen them bust small grow-ops and claim "a million dollars on the street", and anyone who knows anything about cultivation of cannabis knows those estimates are complete bunk. Since the days of Elliot Ness, the vice squads (or whatever they're called in any given time and place) have had this habit of grossly exaggerating their catches.

Whatever else we can say about this debate, the one thing we can say for sure is that cops are not above BSing quantities.

Well you know it's how they calculate the price, by using the absolute highest it can seel for.

If a pound sells for $2000, a 1/4LBS for $700 ($2800) and ounce for $200 ($3200) a 1/4 ounce ($4480) a gram for $20 ($8950)....

So they say they have netted the street value of $8950...

Now if they were to say the confiscated the liviungroom value, ir would sound a lot closer to the value you are used to.

[eyeball]

Intent isn't triggered by amount, unless that amount is over 200 plants.

Or 3 kgs, unless I'm reading something wrong.

This is no different than the cops confiscating alcohol from underage people. Pot is still illegal so plants will be confiscated. But it is clear that you won't go for prison if you are growing more than a few plants for yourself.

Yes, a few being 5 plants apparently, but what if the judge is told the plants yielded a kilo each? How is he/she to tell the shit from the shinola once the evidence has been destroyed, and what do they do with a requirement to impose a mandatory minimum?

[noahbody]

Yes, a few being 5 plants apparently,

Try 199.

but what if the judge is told the plants yielded a kilo each?

The judge would then ask for evidence. If a 3 Kg bag of pot was presented, you'd be in shit, because that is beyond what the law considers a reasonable amount for personal use.

[ToadBrother]

The judge would then ask for evidence. If a 3 Kg bag of pot was presented, you'd be in shit, because that is beyond what the law considers a reasonable amount for personal use.

But what if you smoke really big joints?

[ba1614]

But what if you smoke really big joints?

and lots of 'em!

[eyeball]

Try 199.

Did YOU read the damn thing you suggested people read? Sheesh...

The term of imprisonment will be at least six months if the number of plants produced is more than 5(61) and fewer than 201 and the production is for the purpose of trafficking.

The judge would then ask for evidence. If a 3 Kg bag of pot was presented, you'd be in shit, because that is beyond what the law considers a reasonable amount for personal use.

Why would the judge ask to see the evidence? You said that confiscating pot is no different than confiscating alcohol from underage people, you said this in response to my pointing out that the cops destroyed confiscated pot plants.

Soooo, why wouldn't you be in deep shit as you say and charged with trafficking if a cop testified that you were busted with 3 plants that weighed in at 1 kilo of finished product each, and be subsequently sentenced to prison for a mandatory minimum of 1 year?

Edited October 1, 2009 by eyeball

[ba1614]

Did YOU read the damn thing you suggested people read? Sheesh...

Why would the judge ask to see the evidence? You said that confiscating pot is no different than confiscating alcohol from underage people, you said this in response to my pointing out that the cops destroyed confiscated pot plants.

Soooo, why wouldn't you be in deep shit as you say and charged with trafficking if a cop testified that you were busted with 3 plants that weighed in at 1 kilo of finished product each, and be subsequently sentenced to prison for a mandatory minimum of 1 year?

If the plants are in the ground it is cultivation, and the weight is irrelevant, and they go by the number of plants. Any lawyer would destroy any prosecutor that tried to estimate finished weight to be used in the charges. There has to be dried product for the weight to matter.

The article you posted just stated the estimate of the cop,(outrageously as mentioned) nothing about charges relating to that weight.

Edited October 1, 2009 by ba1614